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User talk:Toomai/Cloneosity: Difference between revisions
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::@Toomai, I would like to apologize for editing your page without permission. Also, I noticed that Isabelle is not included amongst the SSBU characters. While she does have some unique moves, it would be interesting to see how different she is from villager. In regards to Ganon's up tilt, the move does not really have anything in common with Falcon's other than the fact that both characters use their legs: Falcon's is a sweep that can meteor smash, while Ganon holds his leg up and slams it with an accompanying explosion. Thanks for considering these points, and great job on making an in-depth table. Cheers! [[User:OldLink5|OldLink5]] ([[User talk:OldLink5|talk]]) 07:39, 16 January 2019 (EST) | ::@Toomai, I would like to apologize for editing your page without permission. Also, I noticed that Isabelle is not included amongst the SSBU characters. While she does have some unique moves, it would be interesting to see how different she is from villager. In regards to Ganon's up tilt, the move does not really have anything in common with Falcon's other than the fact that both characters use their legs: Falcon's is a sweep that can meteor smash, while Ganon holds his leg up and slams it with an accompanying explosion. Thanks for considering these points, and great job on making an in-depth table. Cheers! [[User:OldLink5|OldLink5]] ([[User talk:OldLink5|talk]]) 07:39, 16 January 2019 (EST) | ||
:::Whoops Isabelle being missing is indeed an oversight. | |||
:::I stand by my opinion on Ganondorf's up tilt. While the nuances of the animation have been cleaned up over time, it's still a heel axe kick of very similar motion; you could trade the animation between the characters and (after matching its speed) it wouldn't look out of place at all. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Engineer 00:02, 17 January 2019 (EST) | |||
== Dr. Tornado == | == Dr. Tornado == | ||
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:::But Dr. Mario is taking a move from Luigi, who is (I would hope inarguably) a highly related character (unlike Zelda/Dark Pit), and thus by system point 4 should count as a fully cloned move. I understand your focus is more on "how original is this character compared to their parent". However, I am seeing things more like "how much original effort did this character take to make", because I believe this is a more accurate sense of how the developers see clones. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Steppin' 18:54, 13 January 2019 (EST) | :::But Dr. Mario is taking a move from Luigi, who is (I would hope inarguably) a highly related character (unlike Zelda/Dark Pit), and thus by system point 4 should count as a fully cloned move. I understand your focus is more on "how original is this character compared to their parent". However, I am seeing things more like "how much original effort did this character take to make", because I believe this is a more accurate sense of how the developers see clones. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Steppin' 18:54, 13 January 2019 (EST) | ||
::::I agree that your scoring is much more useful in identifying the developer's viewpoint, but I really don't think that's what the readers of our wiki care about (at least primarily). It matters more to most players how differently Dr. Mario and Mario play from each other than how long it took Sakurai to program Dr. Mario. While the developer's viewpoint is of course useful to know, I think it would be more important to focus on direct gameplay differences, possibly with development-based scoring done separately (although that would be more work). [[User:TheNuttyOne|TheNuttyOne]] 19:03, 13 January 2019 (EST) | ::::I agree that your scoring is much more useful in identifying the developer's viewpoint, but I really don't think that's what the readers of our wiki care about (at least primarily). It matters more to most players how differently Dr. Mario and Mario play from each other than how long it took Sakurai to program Dr. Mario. While the developer's viewpoint is of course useful to know, I think it would be more important to focus on direct gameplay differences, possibly with development-based scoring done separately (although that would be more work). [[User:TheNuttyOne|TheNuttyOne]] 19:03, 13 January 2019 (EST) | ||
:::::I might later consider some additional nuance with regards to the division between "developer intent" versus "player experience". But for now the whole point of the project is "developer intent". [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Engineer 00:02, 17 January 2019 (EST) | |||
==This rule for calculation makes no sense== | ==This rule for calculation makes no sense== | ||
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:"Lacking a tipper" is nothing more than different hitboxes, which is explicitly ignored when determining if a move is cloned (see: Marth/Roy in Melee). I have yet to look at Chrom and Ken so I won't say anything there. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] El Pollo 18:20, 13 January 2019 (EST) | :"Lacking a tipper" is nothing more than different hitboxes, which is explicitly ignored when determining if a move is cloned (see: Marth/Roy in Melee). I have yet to look at Chrom and Ken so I won't say anything there. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] El Pollo 18:20, 13 January 2019 (EST) | ||
::If you insist that lacking a tipper is marginal enough to be ignored as a fully separate move, that’s fine. However, I still stand by that different hitboxes and knockback angles matter much more than animation changes, so I would reccomend still changing those from counting as 1 point to only 0.9 or 0.95 points. If you don’t want to, then that’s fine, but I definitely would not put Lucina on the exact same likes as Dark Samus and Daisy, no matter how unoriginal Lucina’s moveset is. [[Special:Contributions/184.181.102.188|184.181.102.188]] 20:41, 16 January 2019 (EST) | ::If you insist that lacking a tipper is marginal enough to be ignored as a fully separate move, that’s fine. However, I still stand by that different hitboxes and knockback angles matter much more than animation changes, so I would reccomend still changing those from counting as 1 point to only 0.9 or 0.95 points. If you don’t want to, then that’s fine, but I definitely would not put Lucina on the exact same likes as Dark Samus and Daisy, no matter how unoriginal Lucina’s moveset is. [[Special:Contributions/184.181.102.188|184.181.102.188]] 20:41, 16 January 2019 (EST) | ||
:::The problem with what you're suggesting is two-fold. One, changing 1 to 0.9 is kind of pointless; if I did this to SSB4 Lucina she would be about 22.5/24=93.75%, which is still very solidly a full clone (the exact number matters less than the box it gets sorted in). Two, it's a lot harder to determine how different a move's hitboxes can be before they're considered "not the same". How big an angle change? How big a knockback change? Does changing from Slash to Flame matter? It's the same reason I'm not comparing attributes; it's significantly more difficult to decide at what point "same" becoems "different". [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Engineer 00:02, 17 January 2019 (EST) | |||
== Cross-Comparisons == | == Cross-Comparisons == | ||
We ever going to include Cross-Clone comparisons, like Dr. Mario/Luigi, Wolf/Falco, Young Link/Toon Link? [[Special:Contributions/97.64.61.113|97.64.61.113]] 11:09, 14 January 2019 (EST) | We ever going to include Cross-Clone comparisons, like Dr. Mario/Luigi, Wolf/Falco, Young Link/Toon Link? [[Special:Contributions/97.64.61.113|97.64.61.113]] 11:09, 14 January 2019 (EST) | ||
:If so, it'd be a lower priority (wouldn't be done until after everything else). [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Engineer 00:02, 17 January 2019 (EST) | |||
== Character Balance == | == Character Balance == | ||