Talk:Alternate costume (SSBU)/Archive 2

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Simon and Trevor's alt colors

Hey guys, decided to look at all of Simon's and Richter's recolors, and given the wiki has very few for the both of them I thought I'd give my two cents
Simon's Colors

• Default
• Castlevania 2 Design (Red and Gold design from cover artwork)
• Alucard (SoTn design)
• Juste Belmont (Simon's grandson, Gray hair with red outfit, purple highlights are based on the sprite)
• Richter (Blue and white outfit with Brown Hair)
• Cornell (Purple outfit, Silver hair)
• Julius Belmont (Ginger hair, Brown and red clothing)
• Shanoa (Purple outfit, Black hair)
  

Richter's Colors

• Default
• Red (possibly the rival from bloodletting or Christopher as mentioned in the article)
• Purple (Cornell?)
• Green (Slow effect as mentioned in the article)
• Yellow (John Morris as mentioned in the article)
• Blue (possibly Charlotte Aulin or Peke)
• Black (Alucard Again)
• White (Possibly Soma Cruz based)
  

those are at least my thoughts on it BlueLeo (talk) 20:34, 4 November 2018 (EST)

Big Castlevania fan here, I think Richter's Green alt is actually referencing the Lords of Shadow incarnation of Trevor Belmont and/or Victor Belmont from LoS 2, both of who wear green. His red outfit is definitely Christopher. Also I think his yellow outfit may actually be Trevor from the US boxart of Castlevania 3 (yellow/gold armor and a red cape, represented by the red headband here).

As for Simon, his yellow/gold alt is based in his appearance in the American boxart for Super Castlevania 4 and his blue alt (appearance 5) is based on the Japanese boxart of the same game. I agree that appearance 4 is Juste and appearance 6 is Cornell. I was going to add all this info to the page but it's been locked UnReverie (talk) 23:00, 4 November 2018 (EST)

Seovania's note : I pretty much agree and found the same references overall. The only thing I'd add is that Richter's green costume seems to be a Maria reference, as it has some yellow edges on it.

Red Richter also seemed to be the Rival from the Bloodletting, either that or Jonathan Morris (although one might say it's not the same kind of red.)

The other Blue Richter might also simply be a Dracula X Chronicles reference, but I like the idea of it being a Charlotte reference more.

In fact I had a whole theory going with Simon mostly referencing Belmonts whereas Richter would reference non-Belmont important characters.

Last thing I'll add is that I found Simon's last costume might be a reference to Hector Devil Forgemaster, from Curse of Darkness.

ah yeah, I'd forgotten about the box arts containing different recolours for Simon and the others, and I've played more rondo than symphony, so I forget about maria's symphony design sometimes.

I'd also let the LoS and Ps2 games slip my mind when checking through it, haven't actually played LoS, mostly played the classics and been trying out the post SotN games

Regarding Simon, I mainly don't think that the yellow/gold one is based on the US box art of CV4 because of the hair color change, it's changed to be a quite pale blonde, and there's a fair amount of black in his color scheme. I agree the blue one is probably Richter and/or the CV4 japanese box art.

The yellow recolor of Richter could very well be based on Trevor, but I don't think they'd base it off of US box art, considering he's got a far more recognizable design in this art and the Curse of Darkness design

I also brought up the Rival from the cancelled game simply because it was something neat and more closely tied to Richter that could be related to the colors, it's just nice to see what possible correlations there are I guess BlueLeo (talk) 04:54, 8 November 2018 (EST)

Just to add a few more Richter reference possibilities: His red outfit could reference Maria as she appeared in her red dress in Rondo of Blood. Purple could be "Shaft", the antagonist from Rondo of Blood and Symphony of the Night (his sprites are very purple). Richter's yellow costume could be Julius Belmont, who wears a yellow vest and a red scarf around his neck. His second blue costume could be a reference to his appearance in Symphony of the Night, where the inner lining of his jacket is gray (like in the costume).

Should also note that someone on the main costume page got Simon's "Orange" and "Red" references backwards. "Orange" should be his Simon's Quest appearance while "Red" should be referencing his Castlevania sprite (note the brown hair). Pyitoechito (talk) 15:32, 8 November 2018 (EST)

About the "Red" recolor, I really don't think it's referencing his Castlevania Sprite, considering the outfit is colored a dark red and an orange, while his hair is a completely different tone, if it were referencing the CV1 sprite the hair would be matching the darker colour, and if it were CV2's sprite it'd be entirely different, the main reason I think that it's based on Julius is because of the Juste recolor, they based his colors on the sprite, including the purple outline on him, Julius' sprite matches to the color scheme pretty closely I think. Though I could be wrong, I don't really see it being the CV1 sprite of simon (Julius' Sprite)

I don't think that Richter's yellow costume references Julius though, considering Julius' main color is the brown. I also don't think the purple is shaft because of the lack of any green (Shaft's secondary color) on the recolor, though the blue one could be based on SotN for sure. BlueLeo (talk) 03:03, 12 November 2018 (EST)

To me, Simon's "Orange" recolor bears striking similarities to his appearance on the CV2 box art. Blonde hair and red armor with gold accents. Maybe "Red" doesn't reference his CV1 sprites, but "Orange" definitely looks a lot like his CV2 box art appearance. Also of note is that the "Red" costume has Simon's brown hair very closely matching his brown shoulder guards. Pyitoechito (talk) 13:14, 13 November 2018 (EST)

As I have already stated on the article, Simon's yellow alt is actually his appearance on the Western Super Castlevania IV box, with the purple one being based on his in-game appearance in Vampire Killer, and the Blue one actually being how he looks in Super Castlevania IV. The last one looks more like how Simon appears in Haunted Castle. As for Richter, all of them are actually from Harmony of Despair. However, the Green one is the curse effect from both Dracula X games, the Yellow one is indeed based on John Morris's concept art. But for the Cyan and Black ones, both are from the Dracula X games; Cyan is his suit shown in the opening sequence of RoB, and Black is sourced from the monochromatic ending stills from SNES Dracula X. The Purple and White ones don't reference anyone, as they are from HD. --Tailikku (talk) 00:22, 18 November 2018 (EST)

I definitely agree that Simon's "orange" is based on CV2 boxart. 71.203.64.176 16:57, 22 November 2018 (EST)

Fixed for you. --Tailikku (talk) 23:28, 24 November 2018 (EST)

I honestly can't see how this is a reference to the CV2 boxart considering even his hair's color was changed, and that it matches Julius's color scheme way much more than this but okay...

I don't know which one you're talking about, but Simon's second palette is definitely a reference to CV2. Made obvious especially with the gold trim on his armor and his white boots. https://youtu.be/ROd0H43R78I?t=278 --Master Foot (talk) 00:19, 6 December 2018 (EST)

His in-game appearance in Vampire Killer looks red, not purple. --Master Foot (talk) 00:19, 6 December 2018 (EST)

I agree that Simon color #3 probably isn't referencing the Western CV4 boxart seeing as how it's a lot darker than the bright yellow armor in the artwork. Also, I added Cornell to the page. Simon's black alt could also be referencing Shanoa, but I'm not sure. --Master Foot (talk) 23:52, 29 November 2018 (EST)

Looking closer, I think the color scheme of Richter's black alt could be referencing Alucard as well. But I'll leave it the way it is for now in case anyone has any objections. Same with Simon's "Shanoa" color. --Master Foot (talk) 18:16, 7 December 2018 (EST)

It's not a reference to Shanoa, it's a reference to Vampire Killer. And no, it's not red, it's actually mauve, with the black hair coming from the dark gray outlines to the graphics. --Tailikku (talk) 01:10, 10 December 2018 (EST)

Dark Samus

I found HQ versions of Dark Samus’s alts - on a Facebook post of all things. See here Aykrivwassup (talk) 17:04, 20 November 2018 (EST)

I think the Yellow Dark Samus Alt is based on SA-X from Metroid Fusion. Like Dark Samus it as well is a clone of Samus. Mudkip971 (talk) 22:57, 20 November 2018 (EST)

Hi, don't have an account but wanted to chime in -

Dark Samus's Gold costume is almost certainly meant to be a reference to the Golden Torizo from Super Metroid, right down to the blue accents:

-Narmot

Golden Torizo definitely looks like a likely possibility for the gold costume. I'm also wondering if her black costume may have been inspired by this concept artwork of Dark Samus from Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, considering that her silver costume greatly resembles another piece of concept art from the same game. --PeabodySam (talk) 18:50, 4 December 2018 (EST)

HD better images of the Alt costumes

Over here => https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzaXw_91bAE -- WolfgerLynel (talk) 21:32, 20 November 2018 (EST)

We are very close to the game’s launch. I would suggest we just wait to use the in-game assets (like with previous titles) for the alt images. Nintendo101 (talk) 21:51, 20 November 2018 (EST)

Full body references

For things we can't tell just from the shoulders up, or that are slightly different in game than in the artwork: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROd0H43R78I Furballcan (talk) 02:54, 23 November 2018 (EST)

Ike

It could be said that the Purple alt for Ike may resemble Micaiah, from FE: Radiant Dawn [here], or Katarina, from FE: New Mystery of the Emblem [here]. They're both main characters in their respective instalments.

Blessedvolty (talk) 12:39, 25 November 2018 (EST)

The Red Ike is based on the Red Team Ike color in Brawl that was just his default colors with a red tint, making them look purple. It predates Katarina, and doesn't really resemble Micaiah since it has a red and yellow cape instead of a blue one to reference her scarf. Furballcan (talk) 11:05, 28 November 2018 (EST)

Made an account for this because it was bugging me that it wasn't listed. The purple Ike alt is definitely based on Katarina from Fire Emblem: New Mystery of the Emblem. If you look at Katarina's official artwork and the purple Ike alt, the colors on the shirt and scarf match pretty much perfectly. I can't edit the page yet but I just wanted to make this known for anyone who can. CombatRobot (talk) 13:50, 4 December 2018 (EST)

Mewtwo's Alternate Costumes

Majority of the alternate costumes for Mewtwo have little to no reference to anything else. However, both the Cyan and Blue skin do have their reasons.

• Cyan (or Green) Mewtwo is a reference to it's shiny palette swap.
• Blue could also be a reference to Mewtwo's second costume in Pokken Tournament.

The cyan color is more blue than green for it to resemble its shint, and I would contend that its cyan color more closely resembles its alt from Pokkén than the blue one. VoqéoT 19:01, 30 November 2018 (EST)

Richter's Alternate Colors

Hello, I am a Smash Bros. fan, and a HUGE Castlevania fan, as well. As I was browsing the alternate colors for the different characters, I came upon Richter's and couldn't help but criticize the color origins listed. I will do my best to state what I think the colors are referencing and back my claims with present evidence.

1. Richter's default costume: Do I even need to say it?

2. Richter's 2nd costume: Red shirt, White edges on shirt, Normal undershirt, White leather gloves, White pants, Black boots. This costume has been said to be a reference to either Christopher Belmont, or the rival from the cancelled Bloodletting, but I cannot see that at all. What I see, however, is a reference to Juste Belmont. Juste Belmont's character has been depicted as wearing a Red shirt with White edges, Black undershirt, White gloves, White Pants, and Black Boots. The part that gets me to believe it is Juste is the color of the boots. When so many of Richter's alternate costumes change the color of the boots, why wouldn't the color change to light brown to reference Christopher in Rebirth or the rival from Bloodletting? The fact that they are Black boots in particular sells me on it being Juste Belmont.

3. Richter's 3rd costume: Purple shirt, Greyish-Black undershirt, White gloves, Black pants, and Yellow Purple and Black boots. Not quite sure who this may be referencing, or at least, it is not as clear as the other costumes. It's anyone's guess, really...

4. Richter's 4th costume: Green shirt, Gold edges on shirt, Normal undershirt, Grey pants, and Dark-Brown boots with Light Brown coverings. This costume is listed on the wiki as being the "Curse effect from Rondo of Blood." However, and this is very clear, I am sure it is referencing Maria Renard as she appears in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, where she wears a Green tunic with Golden-colored cuffs. She also wears socks that are greyish-white and shoes that are light brown in color.

5. Richter's 5th costume: Yellow shirt, Brown edges on shirt, Red undershirt, Blue pants, Brown boots. Now this one seems to be the most controversial; many people believe it is a reference to John Morris, and others believe it is Julius Belmont. I am one who believes it is Julius based on a few factors. It is true that both Julius and John wear Blue jeans and have brown boots, and it is also true that John Morris wears a Red headband in many pieces of official artwork for Bloodlines. However, John Morris has never been depicted in official artwork wearing a yellow shirt, especially a yellow shirt with dark brown. He has always been depicted wearing brown, sweater-type clothing, with a white shirt to go underneath. John is also depicted with either red or black suspenders. Julius, on the other hand, is depicted in Dawn of Sorrow, to have a Yellow shirt, Brown Jacket, Red handkerchief, Blue jeans, and Brown boots. The Brown jacket and Yellow shirt looking nearly identical in color to Richter's Yellow shirt with Brown edges.

6. Richter's 6th costume: Blue shirt, White edges and insides of shirt, White undershirt, White pants, Brown boots with Blue around the ankles and Tan flaps. This is an extremely obvious costume referencing Richter's appearance in the official artwork of Symphony of the Night. Clarifications should not have to be made.

7. Richter's 7th costume: Blackish shirt, Gold edges on shirt, Grey undershirt, Dark Grey pants, Dark Brown boots with white around the ankles. This is also a costume that can be referencing many things, but I believe that this is referencing Alucard's Symphony of the Night appearance, especially with the golden edges, but it, to me, is very vague.

8. Richter's 8th costume: White shirt, Red edges on shirt, Black undershirt, Black pants, Black boots with White coverings and Tan flaps. I have heard many things about this costume, whether or not it's Juste or Soma. I do not believe it is Juste since Juste does not wear Black pants and since Juste wears more Red than white in his official art. I REALLY do not think it is Soma, since Soma's color scheme is White coat, Black sweater, Blue jeans, and the fact that Soma is never depicted wearing anything with the color Red. I, however, believe it is a lovely reference to the one who started it all, Leon Belmont. Just look at the similarities in color; Leon wears a Black, long sleeve undershirt with a shirt that is White and has Red on the edges of it. Leon's pants are also Black and striped with white, and his Black boots have Light-Tan flaps and White coverings around the vamps. This is nearly one-to-one with Richter's 8th costume.

104.136.71.9 23:07, 30 November 2018 (EST) An avid Castlevania fan, and a dedicated Richter main, OliviérBaguette.

The first thing the 3rd costume reminded me of was Richter's design from the unreleased 32X game, which I added to the article. The only difference is he has a dark purple coat instead of a dark blue one, but it's closer to that than anything else from Castlevania I can think of. --Master Foot (talk) 19:16, 1 December 2018 (EST)

Is there any way that the main article can be updated so to correspond with the new outfit colors rather than the older ones? If not that's okay.

104.136.71.9 16:27, 4 December 2018 (EST) OliviérBaguette

You can add them yourself, though I personally wouldn't remove anything somebody else wrote. --Master Foot (talk) 00:35, 6 December 2018 (EST)

Yeah, no. As a huge fan of Castlevania myself, not a single one of them are a reference to Juste, Maria, Soma, or Alucard, as most of them are references to Richter's appearances in other games or Richter-like designs. Zombie Trevor does not count since he's literally a zombie mimicking Trevor Belmont, and the real Trevor wears brown (this can be seen when using the Greatest Five Dual Crush in Portrait of Ruin). And there is also the fact that Richter's outfit in Symphony has the same exact shade of blue as in Rondo. The Julius connection is completely out there, as John's is a closeer match to Richter's outfit since the artwork used for him in the Japanese manual for Bloodlines (known as Vampire Killer) has John wearing a red bandana (it appears blue ingame but red in the intro as well) as well as a more orange shirt as well. And for that matter, it's not a sweater that Johnny boy is wearing, it's a plain white tee with a vest over it, mainly to show off his biceps and just how everything is bigger in Texas. --Tailikku (talk) 20:18, 4 December 2018 (EST)

Don't worry, I do not believe that the white one references Soma, either. (I said it looked similar to the color scheme of Leon's official artwork) However, most of the others are extremely similar to the ones that I have pointed out. I said I was not too sure about the black outfit being Alucard or the Purple outfit being anything but the 32X design since its the only thing I, and many others, were able to find that were close enough to them. If you could tell me what costumes reference "Richter-like" designs that would be nice. The only one I've noticed was Richter's 6th color, which you can see on the main article as having an identical color scheme to his SoTN appearance. Thanks - P.S. Im using this video that displays the alternate costumes from head to toe. P.P.S If this is the image of John Morris that you were referring to, or even this one of him whipping down, then answer these: Why would Richter's costume use a Red undershirt instead of a White one to reference John's White shirt underneath his Brown vest? Why would Richter's costume use a Yellow tunic with Brown outlines to reference John's Yellow pants and Brown vest? Why would Richter's costume use Blue pants along with the other colors, especially Yellow? Perhaps Richter's color is combining both John's official and in-game appearances? Or maybe, JUST maybe, Richter's costume is directly referencing Julius' official artwork? If the costume is referencing others based on all direct colors and places of those colors, then the ONLY thing DIRECTLY referencing John has to be Richter's red headband. Everything else from the neck downwards directly references the colors of Julius AND exactly where you can find those colors on Julius' official artwork. The Red undershirt referencing Julius' Red handkerchief that he wears around his neck or even Julius' red undershirt, which I am now just noticing exists; The Yellow tunic with Brown outlines referencing Julius' Yellow shirt with Brown coat; the Blue pants referencing Julius' Blue jeans; and the Brown boots referencing Julius' Brown boots. From this, you can see that there is more evidence pointing to Julius Belmont than John Morris. 104.136.71.9 16:41, 5 December 2018 (EST)OliviérBaguette

I beleive you helped back up my claim that it is John and not Julius. Especially since Julius is more brown than the rest of the Belmonts, descendants included, with that trenchcoat of his. If they wanted it to be based on Julius, they would have made it a brown costume and not a yellow one. Also, thanks for reusing the artwork I had already linked to the main article, which also backs up my claim. --Tailikku (talk) 21:14, 5 December 2018 (EST)

Actually, it's pretty convincing to me. Aside from the main color being yellow and not brown, there does seem to be more similarities to Dawn of Sorrow Julius than John. But the main color is still pretty important. Also, since Christopher also has a yellow color scheme with a red headband, it could be a reference to more than one thing (possibly all three). --Master Foot (talk) 00:35, 6 December 2018 (EST)

Finally, the actual images are in on the main article. Now we can directly compare the Costumes to different Castlevania characters. I am still holding on to my beliefs mentioned at the beginning as to what the costumes reference. Here comes Smash Ultimate! P.S. Getting a better look at Richter's 3rd costume, the purple one, it looks to have a greenish undershirt, and the boots seem to be yellowish with a hint a green. If this were to reference anyone, this may just be Shaft's Rondo of Blood appearance, which has a Purple, Green, and Gold color scheme. Man, I love speculating this stuff!104.136.71.9 00:14, 9 December 2018 (EST) OliviérBaguette

Incineroar's alt colours

Incineroar's "yellow" alt is based off Scrafty, another Dark-type Pokemon, not Infernape. The mark on Incineroar's head and its eyebrows are red like Scrafty's mohawk in the official renders. In addition to this the skin is primarily orange, a colour not present in Infernape's design (even the flames are only red/yellow.) Rocket1908 (talk) 07:52, 2 December 2018 (EST)

There is no red on that skin. Scrafty's hands and feet aren't blue, nor is there any blue present. Also, no orange on Infernape? Seriously? Wazzup111 (talk) 12:03, 2 December 2018 (EST)

The hands are more black/grey than blue. If you look closely at the head, you will notice that the eyebrows are actually a darker, more red shade as opposed to the rest of the body which is orange. Please show me where the orange is consistently in Infernape's design - in its simplest form, the fire is always red and yellow, meaning there isn't any orange outside of gradients in more detailed models. You could argue that it isn't Scrafty because of the supposedly "blue hands" but by the same logic Infernape is instantly ruled out by the primarily orange body.

Rocket1908 (talk) 00:20, 3 December 2018 (EST)

It's definitely a navy blue. The color looks nothing like the black present on Scrafty. If you're arguing that Incineroar's eyebrows are a very faintly different shade of oran-I-I mean red, then would ya look at that: Infernape's "uninbrow" is red. Also, do you not see Infernape's arms? His legs? His tail? His head? His ears? I even went into Photoshop and checked that the colors are orange, and they are. Going back to the Incineroar skin, his arms and legs are striped with orange and yellow, and the fur making up his abs are yellow just like how there's only yellow on the white of Infernape's chest. So what are you even talking about with "primarily orange body"? Do you even know what the color orange looks like? Wazzup111 (talk) 20:07, 2 December 2018 (EST)

Infernape is clearly brown. The pre-evolutions may be orange, but Infernape itself is brown. Not sure how you're seeing orange on him. The chest on the Incineroar skin is also grey, not white. You can tell because Incineroar's "shiny" skin with white uses a much lighter colour for the actual white parts.

Rocket1908 (talk) 22:57, 2 December 2018 (EST)

Just for the record, here is an image of Infernape's model from Pokemon Battle Revolution. That definitely looks orange to me. --PeabodySam (talk) 23:06, 2 December 2018 (EST)

To be fair that's one model from a decade-old Wii game. More recent and consistent portrayals from the main games, anime, TCG and other spin-off material are clearly tan/brown. I doubt that the inspiration for this alternate colour is from one cherrypicked portrayal of a Pokemon that isn't the base Pokemon (some Pokemon do use official non-shiny alternate colours that originate from Stadium or old sprites, but only their own), especially when the shade of orange is better matched to Scrafty's orange than the PBR Infernape colour anyway. The skin definitely isn't Infernape.

Rocket1908 (talk) 00:20, 3 December 2018 (EST)

You are absolutely grasping at straws. You're ignoring the fact that there is no red or black on the skin and only basing it on how there is orange and yellow. Also, Infernape's model in Smash 4 is orange. Wazzup111 (talk) 16:33, 4 December 2018 (EST)

Grasping at straws? You're using inconsistent non-canon portrayals to support your argument. The main series Pokemon games, the official artwork, the anime, Pokemon Go, the trading card game and multiple other spinoffs are all brown. Even in Smash 4 with the proper shading and lighting, Infernape is actually brown. The official render for Incineroar's alt 5 actually does have red in the exact same spot of its head as Scrafty, and has the grey on the abdomen, just like Scrafty. And I know you're gonna come back and say something about the black-blue hands, but remember that you said yourself in the edit notes of the article "the slightest difference between white and grey does not outweigh the rest of the similarities", just like the slighest difference between black and black-blue doesn't outweigh actual similarities. Even the orange versions of Infernape are not the same shade of orange as the skin... multiple people have reversed your edit already, please stop. So as you would say, you are absolutely grasping at straws. I understand you might not agree with what is elsewhere the general consensus of the skin's origin, but you cannot seriously still insist that the orange and grey are supposed to be Infernape's brown and white.

Rocket1908 (talk) 00:06, 5 December 2018 (EST)

Reference

I've been pretty neutral about this debate, but since it seems to heating up a bit, once again I'd like to show something just for the record:

This is directly comparing the color palettes of Incineroar's costume, Infernape, and Scrafty. I think looking at this shows that Incineroar's costume isn't actually all that far off from Infernape; the colors on his chest and claws are closer to white and blue than they are to gray. In fact, overall, it's actually closer to Infernape's colors than Scrafty's colors (with the sole exception of orange), with the most damning evidence being that there's no Scrafty color corresponding to Incineroar's dark blue. Additionally, seeing all three Pokemon lined up like this, I think the color composition (where each color is found on each Pokemon) is closer between Incineroar and Infernape than Incineroar and Scrafty. Right now, while I still don't feel strongly one way or another, I think the Infernape argument has more weight to it than the Scrafty argument. --PeabodySam (talk) 16:49, 5 December 2018 (EST)

Alright, I'll try to look at it in comparison to Scrafty. So the torso is gray, okay. But Scrafty's torso is a dark grey, while Incineroar's is a significantly lighter gray. And onto the hands, I took the eyedropper tool to it and it is in fact a shade of blue. Where do you see navy blue on Scrafty? Where do you see a light gray on Scrafty? I guess Infernape is a bit more on the brown side, but at first glance, I think a lot of people would agree that it's orange. The Smash 4 model, the pre-evolutions, it would make sense. Though if you really want concrete points, the sprites are more on the orange side (again checked with eyedropper tool). Even if the colors aren't 1-to-1, they match up better with Infernape than Scrafty. I don't think my idea is much of a problem, considering only 1 person made a revision that I counterpointed. If it were a real problem, how come mods haven't told me to stop editing it? How come you, a user who only made an account just to argue that a skin looks like Scrafty, are the only person arguing it in the discussions? You are the only one seeing this as a problem. In the end, it's only a skin. Wazzup111 (talk) 17:25, 5 December 2018 (EST)

You've changed from grey and white not being different enough to discount the other "similarities" to using the specific shade of grey as an argument, and then in the same paragraph also tried to tell me the specific shade of orange doesn't matter because it's "close enough?" You are deliberately being inconsistent just to make it fit your narrative. And what eyedropper tool are you using? those sprites and models are objectively brown. You picked two of the least orange versions of Infernape and you're trying to claim your magic eyedropper says they're orange. I really don't care whether or not you agree with me on the Scrafty thing, but you cannot keep claiming that Infernape is the inspiration when the primary colour of the skin is not at all present on the Pokemon you're trying to claim it references. There's either something wrong with your eyedropper or your eyes, because I used two different programs with colour pickers, and both gave me the same shades of brown.

Also Peabody, the official Sugimori artwork always uses washed-out colours especially looking at it in comparison with the sprites, anime, Dream World art, merchandise and Smash, so you'd be better off using sprites or DW art for a more accurate palette. Plus, your colour selections weren't from the most neutrally lit parts of the model, especially the grey where it looks like you picked from the belly right near where the fire belt affects the lighting as opposed to a neutrally lit grey spot like the head or near the shoulders.

The main point is, it definitely cannot be Infernape because Infernape isn't orange. And if you want to get pedantic about shades, Infernape's blue isn't navy, and the torso is grey, not white. That, and the main colour not matching is a pretty big detail that's being overlooked here. No matter which way you cut it, it's not Infernape.

Rocket1908 (talk) 07:36, 6 December 2018 (EST)

Just so you know, I went out of my way to pick colors in spots that were neither the brightest-lit nor the darkest-shaded for my reference. I didn't pick a very brightly-lit gray from his belly near his fire belt; I picked it from his pectoral muscle, where it was far enough away from both his belt and the shadows cast on his shoulders/ribcage to get a good idea of what was a more neutral shade.

Allow me to play Devil's Advocate for a moment. Captain Falcon's third costume is based on Blood Falcon, but Blood Falcon doesn't have bright purple gloves/helmet/boots or a lime green scarf. Link's fourth costume is based on Fierce Deity, but Fierce Deity's tunic/hat are a much, much lighter shade of blue compared to the costume's dark teal. Samus's third costume is based on the Gravity Suit from Super Metroid, but the suit doesn't have a blue visor in that game.

My point? Alternate costumes are rarely 1:1 with their source of inspiration. So, if Incineroar's color palette features an orange that is a bit too bright or a gray that isn't quite the right shade, that's not enough to immediately disqualify it. Looking at the overall costume (especially now that we can see that the feet are also colored dark blue, and keep in mind that this is the only Incineroar alt where the hands and feet are colored differently from the arms and legs; that's pretty significant) it still seems to me that the overall color composition resembles Infernape just a bit too much to dismiss it as a mere coincidence. It's not just what colors are used; it's how they are used.

Clearly, the rest of SmashWiki either agrees that it resembles Infernape, or is apathetic enough to keep it on the page. As Wazzup111 said, you're the only one insisting that it doesn't resemble Infernape. --PeabodySam (talk) 10:29, 11 December 2018 (EST)

Obviously not because three people total have undone it. It's you two who keep re-doing it. I don't know why it's been allowed especially with poor evidence on your end. Rocket1908 (talk) 21:16, 11 December 2018 (EST)

It's mainly because we did not come to a consensus for your point yet, and thus should still stay, especially since both Peabody and Wazzup agree that it's not Scrafty and is most likely Infernape. When something hasn't come to a consensus, you don't change it. SugarCookie420 (talk) 21:24, 11 December 2018 (EST)

If I may, it does not seem like a consensus in regards to either side has been reached, as neither side has a sufficient amount of "consensus" to make it seem as though it has been agreed upon (do learn what consensus means). I will be removing the information for now, but not because I side with the side that says it is not (and, for the record, I do not side with the other half of this discussion). I will also be protecting the page until a consensus can be reached, as the edit warring cannot be ignored. Please try to have a civil discussion that does not result in personal attacks. Aidan, the Festive Rurouni 21:29, 11 December 2018 (EST)

I would say that it lines up with Infernape, not Scrafty. Per PeabodySam's image reference, I think that it more closely resembles Infernape. Corrin Fan 21:46, 11 December 2018 (EST)

I think everyone has forgotten to address the fact that the colour picked from the grey section of the body in that image is not an accurate reflection of the skin. I've done another comparison using the original one myself even using the washed out Sugimori art here, citing where I've picked the colours from so you can test it yourself. The two are fairly even on the grounds of yellow and red, and while colour 5 does suit Infernape more (i used the grey again so there was at least something to compare it to - some parts of the hand did return a more grey colour but they were not used), colours 1 and 3 are much more suited to Scrafty. In addition to this, I feel as though if the skin was deliberately based on Infernape, it would use the intended brown colour for the top of the head and snout and the intended white colour for the whiskers (these type of changes are not impossible or farfetched - Incineroar's Green and Purple skins do change the colours of the head/whiskers in a similar way). I feel like it is much less likely to Infernape considering the orange body. Rocket1908 (talk) 22:35, 11 December 2018 (EST)

Thank you, Aidanzapunk. Now, hopefully, we can continue to discuss this civilly.

I do not wish to continue spending so much time in this debate. Therefore, I shall compile all my evidence into a single argument. I have bolded some of my main points for emphasis.

The main argument against Infernape lies in there being a significant distinction between the orange and light brown. But where does that distinction truly lie? Wazzup and I have provided examples of Infernape where its color appears closer to orange than brown, showing that there is precedence for orange in Infernape's color scheme. I've also argued that, at a cursory glance, Infernape's shade of light brown is close enough to orange that it can be considered a dark shade of orange.

Therefore, I would like to draw your attention to this particular image. This is a screenshot from LEGO Digital Designer, an official piece of software that renders LEGO bricks in nearly every color that they have been physically produced in. I have five colors lined up. Look at the picture, and answer this question: which colors are orange, and which ones are brown?

The answer? It's a trick question. All five colors in this image are officially classified as orange by The LEGO Group: "Earth Orange", "Dark Orange", "Bright Orange", "Bright Yellowish Orange", and "Flame Yellowish Orange". LEGO does have its fair share of colors classified as brown, but none of these fall into that category. As far as LEGO is concerned, these are all different shades of orange.

Now, obviously, LEGO and Nintendo are two different companies, and my point isn't "LEGO Does What Nintendon't"... my point is to illustrate that the distinction between light brown and dark orange is not a clear distinct line. With that in mind, what color is Infernape? Can we really say it's definitely brown and not a dark orange? And if it's a dark orange, then is a lighter shade of orange really outside the margin of error?

Similarly, there is the argument that Incineroar's costume uses gray, not white. That is true. But how gray is gray? That seems like a silly question to ask, but it matters greatly because the lighting and shading on Incineroar's artwork makes it difficult to determine how light or dark it really is. Is it really dark gray, or does it just look that way because of the shadows? If we judged Infernape's color palette based on the parts where there is shadow (such as below its head or on its lower legs), we'd say that was gray too.

So now, we have five colors prominently featured in Incineroar's palette: orange, light gray, yellow, dark blue, red. There are also five colors in Infernape's palette (compared to Scrafty's four): dark orange, white, yellow, dark blue, red. As I've said, despite the differing shades of orange and gray, their differences are not so distinct. At a cursory glance, their color palettes are similar enough to resemble one another.

As I stated before, there is some discrepancy in the color palettes of the costumes that are officially stated as being based on specific sources (sometimes in drastic cases, such as Blood Falcon), let alone the ones that we speculate as "resembling" a particular source. The colors rarely match up 1:1, so we have allowed some leniency in the past. Shadow Lugia doesn't have a purple tail, but we still say that Mewtwo's eighth costume resembles it because it's close enough. Selene doesn't have light green pants, a teal backpack, an orange hat, etc. but we still say that Pokemon Trainer's eighth costume resembles her because it's close enough. The list goes on. It's one of many reasons why we must say "resembling" instead of "based on" when we don't have an official source.

Finally, let us look at all the places where the color composition matches. This, I feel, is the most important part of the costume's similarity. For the sake of simplicity, I'll refer to orange/brown as "orange" and white/gray as "white".

• Their foreheads are white.
• Their eyebrows are red.
• They have additional red on their foreheads (Infernape's fire, Infernape's pattern).
• They both have formations on the side of their heads (ears on Infernape, whiskers on Incineroar) that are orange.
• They both have dark blue somewhere on their heads (Infernape's inner ears, Incineroar's upper jaw); other than their hands and feet, this is the only other place where dark blue is found.
• From the waist up, their torsos are predominantly white.
• Their shoulders are yellow.
• Their arms are (at least partially) orange, but are yellow near the wrists.
• Their hands are dark blue.
• Their waists, thighs, and beginning of tails are orange.
• Their kneecaps are yellow.
• Their feet are dark blue.
• Their tails are (at least partially) orange.

One last thing. I cannot stress enough the fact that this is Incineroar's only costume where its hands and feet are a different color from its arms and legs. Based on any other Incineroar costume, the hands and feet should be orange with this color scheme. But they're not; instead, they're a color that is used very sparingly in this particular color composition. What does that tell you? Do you think this unique trait is significant?

That is all I have to say. Thank you for taking your time to fully read and consider what I have written. Good night. --PeabodySam (talk) 23:23, 11 December 2018 (EST)

Are you seriously going to argue over the lines of what is or isn't orange or grey? It's not that complicated. We have Infernape's brown, the orange-ish Infernape in the PBR model, and Incineroar's orange. They're all different colours. Plus, the XY-on model you used is still brown. When properly rendered in Smash 4, Infernape is brown (look at these images of its appearance on Kalos Pokemon League.) There is a very big difference between small details such as the colour of a boot or a belt VS the most prominent colour on the model. What reason would they have to make it orange if it was Infernape? They could easily have made it the much more commonly used brown - it doesn't conflict with any of the other Incineroar skins. The fact that brown is commonly accepted as being far enough removed from orange as far as the classification of basic colours is concerned shoots down the idea of Infernape being "dark orange". Hell, no one on any of the Pokemon wikis has argued Infernape has being anything but brown - for TWELVE YEARS he has been accepted as being brown. As I said, there would be more obvious ways to alter the colours to resemble Infernape. And as for the "what is grey" argument, here is the stock icon for this alt - you can clearly see it's intended to be grey by looking at the head VS the tooth. It makes very little sense to reference a specific version of a Pokemon from a spinoff game, especially when even that version of Infernape isn't even CLOSE to the shade of orange. I want to emphasise that if they really did intend it to be Infernape, the primary colour of the body would match a lot better than it currently does.

I am asbolutely happy to concede and settle for neither being the inspiration of the skin. But I cannot see it being Infernape considering 4/5 of colours match to Scrafty as opposed to Infernape's 3/5, plus the orange/grey factors again. The "intentional" placement of shoulder and knee pads based on what is intended to be a striped design does not have much weight, especially when all the skins of the character in the game have this striping. Anyway, Scrafty matches with the red on the top of the head being parallel to its mohawk, the placement of grey on the head and abdomen matching its eyelids and belly, and the use of its most prominent colours in orange and yellow on the limbs, the yellow on the spiky shoulders possibly being a reference to Scrafty's hood. I feel as though the presence of one extra colour does not hold more weight in discrediting it than the absense of brown and white discredit the Infernape argument. So I would say that it is more like Scrafty. If you are prepared to reject the possibility of it being Scrafty, surely you would also reject the possibility of it being Infernape based on this. In addition to the orange and grey conflicts, the navy blue colour is a very dark, almost black shade, especially on the mouth. It even appears more black on the aforementioned stock icon. While I concede it is more likely a better match for Infernape, I doubt the possibility of it being added purely to resemble Infernape especially considering the other major differences. I'll repeat one more time as I want to emphasise there would be no reason to make the primary colour orange instead of a much better matching brown had they intended it to be Infernape. Rocket1908 (talk) 00:46, 12 December 2018 (EST)

Chrom's alt colours

Currently we don't have much in regards to Chrom's alts, so I'd like to throw my hat into what they might be referencing. For reference, I'm using this video to see the full costumes.

• Default
• This might be Walhart, due to the deep red throughout, as well as the black undertones.
• This is almost certainly Gangrel. The dark main coat with gold highlights, as well as a yellow cape on both sides just screams Gangrel in my eyes.
• Owain (already on the page)
• The dark main colour along with the brownish/orange highlights, and dark blue inner cape may reference Gaius, one of his support options, though this one's more tough to say.
• This is very likely Sumia, one of Chrom's possible love interests. That shade of purple and pink highlights are unmistakably hers.
• Kellam (already on the page)
• This is the most difficult for me to ascertain. The black main colour along with the purple highlights may be referencing Brady, one of Chrom's possible future children, but there are quite a few black/purple colour schemes around Awakening. Plus, the light blue buckles are throwing me for a loop.

If anyone has any other ideas, please throw em down. Xamad (talk) 14:18, 4 December 2018 (EST)

Dark Samus' alt colours

Might be pointing out a bit here, but I think I know what all of Dark Samus' alts are supposed to reference.

• Default
• Green could be a reference to Weavel
• Purple one is Noxus
• Red is to Trace
• The golden alt is obviously a reference to the Golden Torizo
• The grey/white alt is probably not a reference to Dark Samus' concept art from Echoes, but of the Phazon Suit
• The black alt could be a reference to the Emperor Ing, instead of the suggested Red Phazon.
• The magenta alt is similar to Gandrayda

Any other possibilities that could be seen? Gimblos (talk) 5:14, 5 December 2018 (EST)

We already have a discussion up above about Dark Samus, but I just want to reply to a few of your points:

The limbs and shoulders of the Phazon Suit are predominantly black, and even the gray portions are a dark shade of gray rather than the bright silver of the Dark Samus alt. In contrast, the fact that Dark Samus even has official concept art with that specific color scheme seems to be a huge point in favor of the concept art.

I've suggested that the black alt could be a reference to this concept art, since it likewise features Dark Samus with black armor and red/orange highlights. That being said, I haven't seen any suggestions (including my own) that really resemble the black alt, at least not to the same unmistakable degree as the silver alt. --PeabodySam (talk) 17:28, 5 December 2018 (EST)

This video shows Gandrayda's Spirit Battle being represented with Dark Samus... in her purple costume, not the magenta costume. I think this makes it pretty safe to say that the magenta alt isn't Gandrayda, since it would be very odd if they created this alt to represent Gandrayda but didn't actually use it for her. Taking another look at the purple alt, I do think it's slightly closer to Gandrayda than Noxus. I think I'm going to go ahead and make that switch on the main page. --PeabodySam (talk) 21:53, 9 December 2018 (EST)

Robin Alt Colour

Female Robin Red looks more like Flavia from Fire Emblem Awakening than Anna from any installment of Fire Emblem Kicked (talk) 20:26, 7 December 2018 (EST)

Samus last alt (black and yellow color)

The colors of the black and yellow Samus alt look much more like the Power Trooper enemy from Metroid Prime than Kanden. Why would Samus have the colors of just one of the handful of other bounty hunters, especially when Samus has no more a connection to Kanden than the other hunters? They probably needed a black color to replace the Dark Samus alt and went another black enemy coloration. The Power Trooper space pirate copies the default weapon of Samus, much more of some connection than Samus has to Kenden. Lobo (talk) 11:30, 9 December 2018 (EST)

This is a very valid point you make: the Power Trooper shares the same color scheme as Samus's alt. I still say that Kanden has the benefit of being a playable Bounty Hunter (like Samus) instead of a generic enemy (like Power Troopers), and the argument of "why Kanden and not other hunters" can likewise be turned around and applied to Power Troopers (i.e. "why Power Troopers and not other troopers?"), so I think we shouldn't discount Kanden just yet. Still, since we don't have confirmation one way or the other, I'll go ahead and add Power Trooper in.

BTW, Kanden is a spirit. Does anyone know which puppet fighter he uses in Spirit Battles? If it's Samus in her black alt, that would be a huge point in favor of him being the likely inspiration for the costume. --PeabodySam (talk) 15:06, 9 December 2018 (EST)

Semi-protected edit request

Please link the word "appearance" in Ganondorf's brown costume to this art. Also, could Young Link's orange costume be a reference to this glitch in The Minish Cap? 73.45.30.142 18:09, 10 December 2018 (EST)

Head Icons

Does anyone know where the head icons are? Even just a link to where I can download them would be great, I would be happy to cut and upload them as necessary. I imagine that since we have the direct rips for alt skins that the head icons shouldn't be far off. kenniky 16:34, 11 December 2018 (EST)

We only have the costume images because the official website has them; they're not ripped from the game. I know a rip exists, but it has strange darkness issues that makes it unusable. If there's a better rip out there right now I'm unaware of it - it'll happen eventually. Toomai Glittershine The Inconceivable 21:24, 11 December 2018 (EST)

Spriters' Resource also does not have their rip of the game up yet, but, likely, when that is up, we will upload the icons. Aidan, the Festive Rurouni 21:29, 11 December 2018 (EST)

Archive?

Mainly because of some really long talk sections, but should we archive this section, since it's already past 45,000 bytes? SugarCookie420 (talk) 21:47, 11 December 2018 (EST)