Talk:Alternate costume (SSB4)/Archive 3

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Fox's purple costume is clearly Wolf.SpizzySPAM (talk) 02:30, 29 December 2015 (EST)SpizzySPAM

Well, let's look at it. The fur's gray, as is Wolf's, albeit Wolf's is a bit blue as well in most of his appearances. There's a lot of purple and pink in Fox's outfit, but Wolf's only has a little bit of darker purple in his Brawl outfit. So I wouldn't say it's clearly Wolf. At first glance, that looks to be the case, but upon further examination, it may not be so. Even though they both have gray fur, given the other parts of the outfit it's a bit more ambiguous than that, which is why it's left blank. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 03:00, 29 December 2015 (EST)

It's really the clothing colors that muddy it up as to what/who the costume is based off of. If it clearly matched Wolf's clothes colors then yeah it'd be okay to say it's based on Wolf, but it does not. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 03:11, 29 December 2015 (EST)

Mewtwo's yellowish-green alt. looks like his shiny variant, something that I've noticed, considering I play Mewtwo in both Pokemon and Smash games. I think that Mewtwo's shiny look more like his shiny than Greninja does to his, I think it's only fair to state that it's based off his shiny form. Peeledgrapefruit (talk) 03:21, 6 June 2016 (EDT)

Something I just noticed

The first costume of each character is sometimes called default, but other characters call it by color. We need to pick one and stick to it, I think. Serpent King 22:32, 1 January 2016 (EST)

Nice catch Serpent. I say default. It makes the most sense. Also, for some characters like Robin, Duck Hunt, Fox, and Palutena, all who have a multitude of colors on their person, it's hard to determine what their "default" colors should be. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 22:57, 1 January 2016 (EST)

I agree with that. Serpent King 22:58, 1 January 2016 (EST)

I do think there can be exceptions, such as Bowser Jr., gender bent characters, etc. Serpent King 22:59, 1 January 2016 (EST)

Yeah. Also, for ones with gender variants, should it be "Gender Color" or "Color?" In the case of WFT it has to be "Gender Color," but Villager, Robin, and Corrin don't need that, though either way can do. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 23:01, 1 January 2016 (EST)

Personally, I dislike the whole gender-bender idea in the first place, but that's Smash's fault, not ours. Anyway, I think that, outside WFT, we're good with just color. Serpent King 23:04, 1 January 2016 (EST)

Ok Cool. And just out of curiosity, what do have against male/female variants? For Robin, Corrin, and Villager, it's because they're customizable characters. Both WFTs coexist. It's not gender-bending, although stuff like Linkle is pretty dang close. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 23:12, 1 January 2016 (EST)

Ok so for everyone the default is Default. For WFT it's Default, Male, and the rest "Gender Color." For Robin and Corrin, it's Default, Female, then colors. For Villager, due to how different each one is, I think it should just be colors. For R.O.B., the first two should either be Default (Famicom) and Default (NES), or Default (Japan) and Default (North America). Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 23:28, 1 January 2016 (EST)

ROB's what messed it up. The template probably uses the color parameter to determine the file name for the head icon. Serpent King 23:30, 1 January 2016 (EST)

Yes there is indeed a reason that all the alt costume pages have this convention. The idea is that a colour is used whenever possible, and "default" is used as a last resort. Example: Yoshi's first costume is "green" because that's what it is. In SSB4, Bowser's first costume is "default" because its only real options are "green", "yellow", and "orange", but they're all already taken by other swaps that clearly are more appropriate. However, it's "green" in previous games because there's no such collision. Pokémon Trainer in Brawl is "default" because there's no one colour that can describe his team's first costume. Toomai Glittershine The Labbie 23:31, 1 January 2016 (EST)

Any reason why that is though? Serpent King 23:33, 1 January 2016 (EST)

So we effed it up and we should undo it all, or no? Because while your explanation is sound Toomai, the default being labeled as "Default" makes a lot of sense. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 23:36, 1 January 2016 (EST)

They don't always coincide with Find Mii colors either. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 23:39, 1 January 2016 (EST)

Simple really: consistency with previous games. SSB4 is the only game where the idea of using "default" as a colour is pretty much required (PT in Brawl being the exception). Changing the rules (i.e. "the first costume is always 'default'") makes things inconsistent compared to adding a rule (i.e. "use 'default' as a last resort"). Toomai Glittershine The Emissary 23:41, 1 January 2016 (EST)

Makes sense...I'm willing to get going on the previous games' alt costume pages to make it consistent with this logic. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 23:44, 1 January 2016 (EST)

I think you might have misunderstood. All the previous games' pages, as well as this one before this discussion began, were already consistent with the paradigm of "'default' is a last resort". Toomai Glittershine The Ghostbuster 23:55, 1 January 2016 (EST)

I didn't misunderstand. I propose a change in logic across all alt costume pages. Do you agree? If not I could just undo everything. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 23:57, 1 January 2016 (EST)

No I do not agree. My prime reason is that the Japanese SSB 64 website provides official colour names, including for the first costumes, and therefore making it impossible to remain consistent under any "the first costume is always 'default'" system. Toomai Glittershine The Pan-Galactic 00:00, 2 January 2016 (EST)

Hm ok but what supposition leads you to think these pages have to follow in that way? Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 00:02, 2 January 2016 (EST)

In general, doing A on one page and B on a closely-related page is not the best option, because then people get confused as to which one is the correct way. Now obviously confusion can still happen, as shown by this discussion existing, but at least in this case we can point out the methodology and explain "we're actually doing A on all the pages, it just happens to look like B on this one page because [reason]". Toomai Glittershine The Cloronic 00:28, 2 January 2016 (EST)

Sorry I'm doing a bad job communicating here. Why must we operate under the supposition that we have to follow the SSB64 website for labeling default costumes across all alt costume pages? With the "rule" me and SK agree on, I just don't see SSB64 website as a good reason for using the rule you're talking about in Smashwiki. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 00:33, 2 January 2016 (EST)

I guess I'm trying to say that labeling default costumes as "Default" works here, on Smashwiki. How the official website labels it as standard colors is A-ok, it works, but for that website, not as well here on Smashwiki. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 00:34, 2 January 2016 (EST)

Whether it "works" is a matter of opinion. My opinion is that it feels very wrong to just slap a "default" label on most characters, with their brightly- and distinctly-coloured options, and instead reserve the term for cases where a simple colour name is simply not feasible. It's a pattern that has held successful so far and I don't really see much of a reason to change it other than a difference in opinion. Toomai Glittershine The Zesty 01:06, 2 January 2016 (EST)

(Reset indent) why is Pikachu not yellow, and etc. though? Serpent King 01:10, 2 January 2016 (EST)

Cuz he's naked. Just like Jigglypuff. Anyways, sure ok, you have your argument, it feels wrong, etc. I have mine; I just think it's far more consistent, better, and professional-looking to put "Default" as everyone's default costume. Let's get a vote going. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 01:14, 2 January 2016 (EST)

An easy fix: this is the revision we're after. Serpent King 00:03, 2 January 2016 (EST)

Gonna bring this up again. I don't get why it's so wrong to label characters' default costumes as "Default." Like, do you think it's a dishonor to colors or something? Because that's what I'm getting from what you're saying, which is just silly to me. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 04:34, 10 February 2016 (EST)

And it's not like there's some rule saying we MUST follow the style of the Smash N64 website. I mean, I wanna hear a good reason out of you for this. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 04:36, 10 February 2016 (EST)

It is better to use an existing official term than invent an unofficial one, as per SW:OFFICIAL. Toomai Glittershine The Incomprehensible 09:13, 10 February 2016 (EST)

I'm arguing that "default" is the more widely used and well-known term, and thus trumps the default color names. As per SW:OFFICIAL, analogous to ukemi and teching. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 13:38, 10 February 2016 (EST)

I'm pretty sure using "default" isn't going against SW:OFFICIAL. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by cupid♥. Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 13:39, 10 February 2016 (EST)

This is an old conversation revived without reason. DLC is done, these are the color names we are going with, this conversation is pointless. Serpent King 13:40, 10 February 2016 (EST)

It's revived with reason. I wasn't satisfied with it, and it just tippered off and never resolved. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 13:42, 10 February 2016 (EST)

Nono it was resolved. Serpent King 13:47, 10 February 2016 (EST)

I think you just don't want to deal with it, it was 2-1 before it tippered off with no results on the winning end. It ended with no resolution, I'm bringing it back up again, if you don't want to deal with it, then don't. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 17:13, 10 February 2016 (EST)

You are under no obligation to further this conversation. You've changed sides it seems, which is totally completely 100% fine, if for not very good reasons, but if you're gonna say there was resolution, when in reality the conversation just dropped, then that's not really true. In addition, we have new input from DNK. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 17:18, 10 February 2016 (EST)

(reset indent) Yeahh this definitely wasn't resolved. At all. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by cupid♥. Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 17:23, 10 February 2016 (EST)

There is a difference between something ending and something resolving, between compromise and mediatory action, between debating and fighting, etc. This case is like a short essay question. We thought of some ideas, debated internally, tried to implement a few things, didn't really reach resolution, and just dropped it altogether for a bit, though the question remained. Which is partially my fault, but unlike an essay question on a test, this has no due date, and not much is actually at stake. Well, in my view, it's between settling for something less and making changes that would make something better or more consistent. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 17:40, 10 February 2016 (EST)

You are lobbying for a change. You are the one who needs to present evidence that the change is beneficial, and as far as I can tell, you haven't presented anything other than "it's better in my opinion". Toomai Glittershine The Jiggy 19:22, 10 February 2016 (EST)

I already have. It's far more consistent if the characters' default costumes are labeled as "Default." Labeling their default costume across the board is far more consistent, professional-looking, and more proper. Also, it makes much more sense; it is inconsistent to have other characters' default costumes labeled as colors while others are labeled as "default." I understand the reasoning behind that, but it can change for the better. I gave my view with reasons, which is consistency and it looking good. Your reasons are making it in line with the Japanese website for no reason I see other than it's the Japanese website, and it being more honorable to the colors, I guess, which is kinda silly. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 22:13, 10 February 2016 (EST)

Yeah, I mean SmashWiki always shoots for consistency, and as an encyclopedia it should. Right now we have something hugely inconsistent and it's really strange.

Besides, you haven't given any reason for it to fine as it is except for "colors don't always fit", which is an equally good argument for our side. If colors don't always fit, choose the one that does. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by cupid♥. Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 22:33, 10 February 2016 (EST)

I agree DNK except that it is really difficult to find a color that works for some characters, such as Fox and Bowser. Which is why I would like to propose that default costumes should be labeled as "Default" no matter the color. That way, it would not only be consistent all across the board, but also accurate. Having a color name for each default costume would indeed be consistent, but at the expense of accuracy. Also Toomai, what I'm proposing isn't calling a color "Default," but a default costume "Default." Like I'm not saying that colors are not colors; I'm saying that default costumes are default costumes. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 22:53, 10 February 2016 (EST)

Since we're really just working with single words in a table here, "professional-looking" and "proper" are matters of opinion, meaning "consistency" is the only sticking point. You say it should be consistent for each individual character, ignoring whatever patterns may exist elsewhere. The current setup is consistent as part of an overall system across all games (as explained above), which is also consistent with the only official nomenclature we know of, and out of 129 characters requires only 14 exceptions (~10.8%, all but one of which are in SSB4, making it appear worse than it is). Note that there's no way the community itself is consistent on the issue; there's going to be people that say "green Yoshi" and people that say "default Yoshi", and neither side is really more right than the other (though note that the latter does require pre-existing knowledge that default Yoshi is green, which is probably fine for Yoshi but maybe not for more obscure characters to less-knowledgeable players). "Consistency" is all well and good, but what we have here is two different types of "consistency" against each other, and so it's arguably right back down to just opinion. Toomai Glittershine The Bold 10:29, 11 February 2016 (EST)

I'm not talking about "consistency" across all 4 alt costume pages, though that is a consequence. I'm talking about consistency throughout the characters' default costume names. If both of our views are just opinions, then neither are really that strong, and you know I"d rather just throw up a vote than continue discussing if you're gonna pull that card. We both think our views are better. So let's get a vote. 1-1. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 15:05, 11 February 2016 (EST)

Something else has occured to me. Because the names were use on the SSB64 page are the official ones, we can't use "default" there regardless of whether the other pages do, as otherwise we end up with "we're telling people the official names of every colour except the first one". So that's an automatic serious consistency problem that can't really be fixed under the "use default for everything" system. Toomai Glittershine The Multifaceted 20:50, 12 February 2016 (EST)

Hm, you're kinda repeating yourself here. But us saying that the default is "Default" doesn't mean that we'd renaming the official name. That's just label we'd assign it. Unless I'm wrong, to my knowledge there aren't official names for other costumes beyond that game. One could interpret that as the official name, but that'd be wrong. One could interpret the current name as not official, and that'd be wrong. I feel like you're kinda afraid of misinterpretation or disrespect, when the former is negligible, and someone could easily look it up, while the former is nonexistent. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 20:59, 12 February 2016 (EST)

I understand what you're getting at though. From what I know SSB64 is the only game where we actually have the official names. In that case, if the latter three games don't have any official names set in stone, we could make SSB64 the exception and have all the rest of the pages label the default costumes as "Default." What do you think of that, Toomai? Not backing down from my original proposal, but just in case I wanna see what you think of a compromise. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 21:04, 12 February 2016 (EST)

I support changing them all to default. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by cupid♥. Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 15:07, 11 February 2016 (EST)

2-1. Bump. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 20:22, 12 February 2016 (EST)

Lol, people don't really care about this. I still care some. Bump. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 01:50, 14 February 2016 (EST)

I'll just let this one die. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 11:49, 14 February 2016 (EST)

Luigi

Can someone fix Luigi on this page? I don't know how. Sir Jolteon (talk) 16:57, 4 February 2016 (EST)

Yeah, for some reason the code's not working. I tried fixing it but I don't know what the problem is either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Disaster Flare (talk • contribs) 22:00, 4 February 2016‎ (EDT)

remember to sign your comments Poultry (talk) EZMONEY!! 17:09, 4 February 2016 (EST)

I coulda swore I did...ah well. Disaster Flare (talk) 17:10, 4 February 2016 (EST)

anyway i will try to fix the code on luigi Poultry (talk) EZMONEY!! 17:13, 4 February 2016 (EST)

Miles already fixed it. Disaster Flare (talk) 17:14, 4 February 2016 (EST)

The True Origin of Luigi's Seventh Color

Hello! I have always had trouble with what Luigi's seventh color is cited to be based on. It only ever so loosely resembles his alternate costume in Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon. It seems to be too dark, and the L shouldn't also be green. Then, I remember encountering some official material the other day that looked exactly like it. I couldn't find the still image, but I found it associated with the official lyriced piece Go Go Mario from the 80's. Here's a video featuring the song playing over album artwork, featuring an old design for Luigi identical to his seventh alt. Go Go Mario I don't think this artwork was made exclusively for the album. I feel like I've seen it before used for a Nintendo game released shortly after Super Mario Bros. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Also, does anyone agree or disagree? If not, then I would like to change that information, if that's alright. Nintendo101 (talk) 15:20, 21 February 2016 (EST)

It resembles the art for All Night Nippon Super Mario Bros.; I take it this is what you're talking about? BaconMaster 15:31, 21 February 2016 (EST)

Yes, I believe so! (Sorry it took me so long to respond.) --Nintendo101 (talk) 01:08, 28 March 2016 (EDT)

Luigi's Eighth Color

The outfit resembles the one he wore in Super Mario Bros.: Pīchi-hime Kyushutsu Dai Sakusen!; would it be appropriate to make that connection in the main article next to the color? RICEMANTOM (talk) 00:03, 16 March 2016 (EDT)

People seem to be back-and-forth on this a lot. Personally while I do find it very similar, I feel like they would've made Luigi's cap blue if they wanted to reference the film directly. --Nintendo101 (talk) 01:10, 28 March 2016 (EDT)

Palutena

The wiki says her green skin is based of... Medusa's true form...? I have played all the Kid Icarus games and while this can be true, I don't think it is COMPLETELY true per se. According to what I had searched for, her light blue skin is based on her original appearance, game preceeded by Of Myths And Monsters. In her artwork for said game, she wore green. So that's what I see, her light green seems to be based on her appearance on that Game Boy game instead of being based off of Medusa's "forgettable" appearance in the NES.

I'd like to see who agrees and who disagrees on this, I know it is not important but still. -- BeepYou, a user with no grammar at all :v (talk) 20:17, 31 March 2016 (EDT)

Corrin Alts.

The wiki says that Corrin's 6th alt is not related to anything but with the alt. being female, having purple-ish hair, and darker clothing, I feel it somehow associates with Camilla. With Camilla having BLACK clothing, that kinda voids it......but the correlation(or should I say corrin-ation) is real to me! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pokerick (talk • contribs) 01:07, April 17, 2016

Nah. Nice pun though haha. MuteSpittah (talk) 03:45, 17 April 2016 (EDT)

shades

Mewtwo's Pink Skin looks like it's based on Mew. Red, Blue and Yellow are commonly used colours for legendary trios in the Pokémon games (i.e. Raikou, Suicune and Entei). Charizards Costumes seem to be based on the colours Pokémon get categorized in (red, blue, yellow, green, black, brown, purple, gray, white and pink) Käsefleisch (talk) 13:57, 7 February 2016 (EST)

Very minor detail, but I think Bowser's grey skin may be based off of Dry Bowser. Peeledgrapefruit (talk) 03:24, 6 June 2016 (EDT)

Again, minor detail, but it look like Falco's black skin is based off of black panther, a Star Wolf pilot. Peeledgrapefruit (talk) 03:34, 6 June 2016 (EDT)

You may be right about Mewtwo's pink skin, but I think the other ones can be chalked up to coincidence. Nyargleblargle (Contribs) 13:48, 6 June 2016 (EDT)

Would anyone agree that Mega Man's light blue and white outfit more closely resembles the Skull Barrier outfit rather than the Air Shooter outfit? RICEMANTOM (talk) 02:46, 3 August 2016 (EDT)

Nope, the Skull Barrier design is missing the yellow parts on Mega Man's arms. Miles (talk) 03:25, 3 August 2016 (EDT)

Black hair is not green hair, and a white dress is not a green dress

This is also not a black and white photo, note the peach-colored skin and the red gems. Also note that Of Myths and Monsters is in black and white? I dunno, I just don't see any green here...

Upon further inspection, the entire instruction booklet is in black/white/gray/red. As follows all the character artwork. So, sure, the entire thing is in black/white/gray/red. BUT what I do not understand is how this resembles her green outfit? I don't see a connection. Unless someone can explain it to me. MuteSpittah (talk) 03:56, 10 August 2016 (EDT)

Beastman

So C. Falcon's green costume's colors resemble that of Beastman's in F-Zero GX, most notably, the most prominent colors in the outfit, with them being green and yellow. Now, just because there is a red scarf does not mean that those colors are not greatly similar to Beastman's; it just means that he's sporting colors very similar to Beastman's, with a red scarf. Now, we see instances where there are outfits that very likely or very clearly have some sort of basis to them, but have some minor changes. For example, Mario's Wario outfit has a green "M" instead of a blue "M." Link's Goron and Pipit/Fairy Tears outfit have his sporting a red and yellow shield, respectively, even though his shield doesn't change colors in the Zelda series. Or Bowser's blue costume, in which it is stated in the game that it is based on the imposter Bowser, who has blue arms instead of tan. I'd say that minor things like this don't take away from things bearing resemblance.

And that leads to another point. When something is said to resemble something, that does not mean it matches something or is based on something, but it could. For example: I could say that this guitar part of a song resembles this guitar part in another song. Does that mean it is based on it? Well, only the writers of the song know. Maybe I could say that the guitar tone in "Shut Up and Dance" sounds like that of U2's. Does that mean that they are the same tone? I don't know, maybe some differences. Does that mean its guitar tone is based on a certain song? Not necessarily, but it's likely it was inspired by one, or the whole band. Point is, resembling doesn't mean match, or based on, and I think it's very acceptable to point out likely resemblances here (as per what has stood on this page thus far). Likely doesn't mean definitely, but something that seems likely could be definitely, but it could be unknown to at least a certain group of people. Anywho, I think it's worthy to note the similarities between C. Falcon's green and Beastman's GX outfits' colors, as they are from the same game series and there is likely some inspiration taken there. MuteSpittah (talk) 23:19, 11 August 2016 (EDT)

Not everything has to be inspired by something. Saying that something is "likely inspired by X" is also pushing towards speculation, although whether or not it's acceptable in this case is debatable. MegaTron1 01:15, 12 August 2016 (EDT)

Dude I know that not everything has to be inspired by something. You know you got people saying this solid color makes this resemble this and that's pretty out there. Then there are some things that have more colors, more specificity, and if they resemble something specific with those colors, then hey they resemble it. Doesn't mean inspiration. There can be sole resemblance, or resemblance with possible inspiration, or direct inspiration (when it says "based on"). And most the shit here is pretty damn speculative in the first place. As for me I'm just kinda baffled that of all things to write off as not having any resemblance whatsoever to anything it was the green C. Falcon costume? MuteSpittah (talk) 02:36, 12 August 2016 (EDT)

I too do not think that Falcon's green is inspired by beastman. Also, because the article already contains speculative claims and whatever does not mean we need to add to it. Serpent King 03:50, 12 August 2016 (EDT)

Cool BUT even if you do not think there is inspiration, there is resemblance. And noting resemblance ain't inherently speculative. Also, Beastman's mask does have red eyes. MuteSpittah (talk) 15:26, 12 August 2016 (EDT)