Forum:Invitational Tournament Predictions

So what do you expect for the upcoming invitational tourney? Who do you think the 16 "highly skilled" players will be? Which characters do you think will be playable? What rules do you think will be used? ect.

Personally, I'm kinda worried the invitees will purposely sandbag or make a mockery of the tournament to spite Nintendo because smash 4 isn't melee >_>. A lot of the pros seem to dislike smash 4, so I really wonder who they plan to get. ♡FirstaLasto♥ 23:59, 29 April 2014 (EDT)

Considering that the tournament is primarily to promote the game as intended to be played, and it's probably desirable for it to take a predictable amount of time, I suspect it'll be using the ingame tournament mode (a single-elimination bracket) of 2-minute matches with all items on normal and all stages available (and possibly on Random).

I think there's an outside chance that Nintendo will invite actual competitive players, but I don't think it'll happen. If indeed they don't like the game, that's not something you want to be broadcasted to the public. In fact, I hope they don't go for it, mostly for a real pessimistic reason I don't feel like going into right now. Toomai Glittershine The Pan-Galactic 00:29, 30 April 2014 (EDT)

I doubt they would use all the stages available. Probably they will just use the various FD stages, and possibly the standard battlefield (which is a superior stage imo). And yeah, I also hope they don't use actual competitive scene pros, but the way they worded it is pretty unclear right now. ♡FirstaLasto♥ 01:24, 30 April 2014 (EDT)

If Nintendo are actually taking notice of the competitive scene (like they did with Pokémon I think), then it's probably going to be For Glory rules. Scr7(talk · contribs) 10:47, 30 April 2014 (EDT)

I'm pretty certain it's going to be For Glory rules, I see no way that they will do all stages and items on when the For Glory mode was made. Omega Tyrant 13:49, 30 April 2014 (EDT)

No counterpicking makes for a very unbalanced and improper Smash Tournament.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 14:03, 30 April 2014 (EDT)

This is true, but Nintendo most likely don't care about making this tournament work similarly to actual ones, and counterpicking is one of the things that they aren't going to care to implement. Scr7(talk · contribs) 14:08, 30 April 2014 (EDT)

Still a problem. If they truly want to support the competitive scene, they should understand it fully.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 14:16, 30 April 2014 (EDT)

I think I should elaborate. The creation of the For Glory mode, besides catering to what competitive players want, shows that they recognise all items and stages on isn't conductive for competition (FD only isn't optimal, but it's much much better than playing on janky stages and isn't far off from how the Japanese actually play). A tournament by nature is competition based, and the fact it is invitation only shows it's intended to be a higher level showcase. Additionally, you have those "smashfest" being hosted around the country, where the "For Fun" play will probably happen, while the "For Glory" play happens at the tournament.

Regarding the "highly skilled players", I think it's quite likely that they are very prominent Smash pros, because not only would their names make the tournament more legitimate and better showcase the game, simply who else would it be and who else are known for being "highly skilled" at Smash? It's not going to be randoms no one ever heard of it getting the invite. I seen some people suggest big Youtubers, but do they even play Smash and broadcast it, and would they even be referred to as "highly skilled" if that was the case instead of something like "highly popular"? If it was the developers playing themselves, I'm pretty sure they would just state that instead of saying "highly skilled players" are getting invited. Then I seen someone suggest that they would be getting actors to pose as "highly skilled players", which I don't think Nintendo would deceive the fanbase like that and do something that would just give them blatantly bad PR (when this whole thing is clearly a PR stunt for good publicity to ramp up the hype).

Regarding the pros shitting on the game, I'm certain that wouldn't happen with the Brawl pros. Brawl players of all levels are generally excited for Smash 4, and aren't stubborn asses that insist the other Smash games play exactly like their preferred game and will abhor anything that isn't Brawl (or will do anything to "take away Brawl's popularity"). I've additionally seen the likes of Nairo and Zero saying they want to get the invite. I could see this being an issue with the less mature Melee pros, but I would like to think that they wouldn't shit on such an amazing opportunity, especially if they're sponsored or want to be sponsored. Then for Smash 64 pros, there's Isai, who I don't think as someone who shit on the game for no reason, but would probably (most certainly) sandbag it and showcase the game badly. Omega Tyrant 14:23, 30 April 2014 (EDT)

I don't really care who gets invited; in fact I don't really think I ever did. I just don't think it's right for Nintendo to create the rules if they want to showcase a tournament to competitive players. They should just hire Juggleguy (the best TO in the country) to do it. (Concerning Smash 4's mixed reception from the Melee community I think that would be a good move). In any case, counterpicking is a staple in competitive play, and especially so here considering how FD has been the most polarizing neutral in both games. Just turn off items, add Battlefield and 3 more stages that have familiar layouts. Melee did fine with only 6 stages. It should work here. Another note. Good seeding among the 16 invites is still necessary and is also something Nintendo isn't fit to do. Again having Juggleguy would definitely help.

As stated, FD only isn't optimal, but it doesn't break the game nor make it competitively unfit (and the Japanese pretty much play FD only in competitive Melee and almost do it in Brawl). It especially doesn't really matter when it's a game no one ever played before and this is more of a showcase of the new game. Stop acting like FD only here would suddenly ruin everything.

And hey, assuming competitive players are getting invited, by not shitting on this event or Nintendo or Sakurai, we could really use the opportunity to convey such ideas as directly to them. If For Glory rules are used, our players can communicate to them how FD only isn't optimal, while remaining fully respectful and treating the event completely seriously, which then in return can get us more Nintendo-sponsored tournaments with perhaps a full stagelist (and maybe even get more stages available on the For Glory mode). Shitting on it and going "LOL Nintendo and Sakurai don't know what the hell they're doing", you're just enforcing the negative stereotypes the competitive community has and squandering the opportunity for us to get fully endorsed and sponsored by Nintendo (which makes Smash tournaments better, more exposed, and improves the prize money so much). This is such an amazing opportunity for us that can lead to wonderful things if it goes well, seriously, stop being so stereotypical.

Seeding is additionally completely irrelevant, when this is a game no one ever played before (and assuming it's 16 top level players from all the games getting invited, the skill difference is insignificant anyway for seeding to make a real difference). Omega Tyrant 15:12, 30 April 2014 (EDT)

Japan Melee FD-only is outdated. Japan uses the same stage list as Melee in USA. In fact everyone uses the same Melee stage list and counterpick rules now. See the sets aMSa uploads. Friendlies are on FD alot, but tournament sets still strike the battlefield game 1 90% of time. And I'm not saying FD only completely ruins anything. It just makes the tournament look very unprofessional to stuff like say Apex and EVO. In fact an FD only tournament is alot like casual players trying to imitate competitive play as opposed to actually understanding it. And good seeding would make the tournament look much more professional. Skillwise, I know seeding here isn't big compared to EVO seeding, but come on, we can't have Mango vs Armada winners round 1. --Brian^{Don't try me!} 15:46, 30 April 2014 (EDT)

"It just makes the tournament look very unprofessional to stuff like say Apex and EVO. In fact an FD only tournament is alot like casual players trying to imitate competitive play as opposed to actually understanding it."

No it doesn't, FD only is fully legitimate, especially when it's a new game no one ever played before in a showcase tournament before release. Again, it isn't optimal, but it doesn't break nor ruin things, especially when no one will have the game knowledge for FD's polarisation to really come into issue. Additionally, they (nor we) have no knowledge on how the other stages in Smash 4 will be under competitive play, and for a showcase tournament before release that you want played under competitive rules, FD or BF only would be the safest option to ensure nothing janky happens (and sure, maybe BF only would be better, but it really makes no difference here). As long as the rules are no items, stock, and on FD or BF, this tournament will be completely fine, don't treat it like the other games, where we don't have the knowledge here to make an optimal stagelist with complicated counterpicking.

"Skillwise, I know seeding here isn't big compared to EVO seeding, but come on, we can't have Mango vs Armada winners round 1."

If this was a Melee tournament? Sure. But you do know this is a Smash 4 tournament, and this is going to be the first time the players will play the game. Additionally, who's to say that Brawl players wouldn't be getting any invites, and that the top Melee players should be seeded above the Brawl players in a completely neutral game no one ever played? Stop thinking all the time in terms of Melee only. Omega Tyrant 16:16, 30 April 2014 (EDT)

I'll also point out that this will very likely be played on a demo version that won't have all the stages available, so it's even more impossible to setup a full stagelist with complicated counterpicking. Seriously, FD only would be perfectly fine for this, stop acting like this is Nintendo hosting their own Melee tournament and completely ignoring your common ruleset. Omega Tyrant 16:21, 30 April 2014 (EDT)

I only named 2 of the 16 slots: the 2 most likely to get picked first. And even if it is Smash 4, it would look weird as **** seeing Mango and Armada fight round 1. Yes, to brawl and melee players alike; everyone knows who the Kings are. And speaking of brawl, I never implied or meant to imply Brawl players won't get invites. I actually don't really care who the eventual 16 people will be, though there are very, very good guesses. And are you actually opposed to changing it from FD Only to FD + Battlefield + whatever neutral looking stages that have been released? Do you mean to say it would be best if we just played FD only, no questions asked? If it "isn't optimal," why not take steps to fix it NOW. Like I said we only need like 5 stages for proper striking.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 16:32, 30 April 2014 (EDT)

"And even if it is Smash 4, it would look weird as **** seeing Mango and Armada fight round 1."

When it's 16 top players in a game no one ever played before? It makes absolutely no difference whatsoever, stop sucking Melee's dick all the time, the two best players there are not going to be automatically the best players in a game no one ever played (especially in a pool of 14 other top players on pretty much the same skill tier). Also, why the hell are you self-censoring yourself?

"Yes, to brawl and melee players alike; everyone knows who the Kings are."

So you directly insinuate now that the Melee players are superior and should be treated better in a completely neutral game no one ever played, can you ever stop being so biased towards Melee? How many times must I point out to you that this sort of attitude just makes the Melee community look bad and dissuades Brawl (and soon-to-be Smash 4) players, along with other potential new players, from having anything to do with Melee?

"And are you actually opposed to changing it from FD Only to FD + Battlefield + whatever neutral looking stages that have been released? Do you mean to say it would be best if we just played FD only, no questions asked?"

I'm saying it doesn't matter for this tournament in the slightest, when it's a showcase tournament before release played on a demo version that wouldn't have probably even half the stages available, and that it's the last thing (besides seeding, which is such a ridiculously awful complaint for this) to get your panties in a bunch over. As long as it's not all stages on random and not playing on janky stages, it's perfectly fine for this tournament, and there isn't going to be a real practical difference here between FD only, BF only, FD+BF+other stage deemed "neutral".

"If it "isn't optimal," why not take steps to fix it NOW. Like I said we only need like 5 stages for proper striking."

Because it's not going to make a real difference either way, and for the latter point, you seemed to have ignored when I pointed out that A: it's a demo version that won't have many of the stages available, and B: we never played on the stages here before and would have no idea how they would actually work outside FD and BF. Expecting a full stagelist with full counterpicking here is being completely unrealistic and overdemanding, and for a showcase demo event like this, it's best to go with the safe option (i.e. FD or BF only) instead of experimenting with something that could really fuck the event up (again, we don't know how the hell the other stages would actually play, and of any potential bugs they could have). Omega Tyrant 17:11, 30 April 2014 (EDT)

The safest option is FD + BF if you are gonna insist that there no other fully neutral stages (I seriously doubt that). If there is a 3rd stage like Dreamland or Smashville, then we can do bans again. Demo or not, the best option is to maintain as much competitive integrity as possible; we don't want new players seeing this for the first time and assuming this potentially degenerate form of tournament play will be the future. Platforms drastically change what battle positions and options are safe/not safe in neutral. And if we are talking unlikely possibilities (like stage bugs), maybe if Sakurai did the right thing and restored Marth, Fox, and Peach to their Melee forms, then FD only becomes an auto-win for Mew2king and Armada. And when I said "Kings" I was referring to the fact that Mango vs Armada is probably the most well known, modern Smash Rivalry, made even more famous from the Melee Documentary.