Talk:List of minor third-party universes

The Wonderful 101 and Glory of Heracles

Nintendo owns both The Wonderful 101 and Glory of Heracles series. For The Wonderful 101, Nintendo owns the trademark and shares the copyright with Platinum Games, just like Astral Chain. The same is true for Glory of Heracles (Nintendo owns the trademark, while Paon and Nintendo co-own the copyright). In other words, the status of these works is the same as the status for Pokemon, where Nintendo shares the copyright, but solely owns the trademark. Thus, I think both these games should be moved to the Nintendo games page.Super Smash Lover (talk) 21:28, June 17, 2020 (EDT)

Getsu Fuma Den?

How is After Burner, a franchise represented through a remix of a song in another universe, a dependent universe, yet Getsu Fuma Den, a franchise represented through a remix of a song in another universe, a full universe? MrStrawberries (talk) 13:58, June 28, 2020 (EDT)

It's mostly due to uncertainty.

The rule for a dependent universe is that the universe must be technically represented, but all its representation is considered to be representation of a different universe and not be acknowledged (i.e. After Burner's music track is categorized as a Bayonetta track and Cody from Final Fight is categorized as a Street Fighter spirit. Neither instance actually lists their true origins).

The Getsu Fuma Den music track technically falls under the former, but unlike the After Burner track, the game of origin is actually listed in the Sound Test menu. It's also the same case for several Namco and SNK universes.

The only problem is that the Getsu Fuma Den track is ripped directly from a Castlevania game, whereas the other Namco and SNK music series' tracks atleast come from their origin game.

Hope this answers your question. SuperSmashTurtles of the Turtle Tribe 16:04, June 28, 2020 (EDT)

Eh, MrStrawberries makes a fair point. While the Sound Test doesn't list the After Burner track from Bayonetta as being from After Burner the same way it does for Go! Getsu Fuma, it's clearly the same case in every other respect and the amount of "represented content" is identical. I see no reason for it to be counted separately. Miles (talk) 16:38, June 28, 2020 (EDT)

Just to clarify, I wasn't against the idea of moving it to the dependent universes section, just very unsure.

Anyway, while we're on the subject of "dependent universes", how should we handle the other two NES Zapper games (Wild Gunman and Hogan's Alley)? While all content from both are considered Duck Hunt representation (except with the case of the Wild Gunman sticker in Brawl), they seem to be going more in the direction of the miscellaneous Namco and SNK universes than the "dependent" universes.

While you could also argue that the Duck Hunt universe is supposed to be more of an "NES Zapper" universe, never once has that been the name in the series to describe all three games (the SSB4 Trophy Gallery calls it "Duck Hunt" and the other two Zapper spirits do list their games of origin) and the series symbol strongly implies that the universe is solely supposed to be Duck Hunt, just with the other Zapper games joining in as well, not quite unlike how Pac-Man has element of other Namco properties in his moveset (Mappy trampoline, Galaxian "fruit", Galaga beam grab, etc.).

Although the issue is also complicated by the fact that no Namco or SNK trophies/spirits that aren't from Pac-Man or Fatal Fury are categorized as Pac-Man or Fatal Fury property respectively, whereas any trophy/spirit related to Wild Gunman and Hogan's Alley is categorized as Duck Hunt property, so there's that. SuperSmashTurtles of the Turtle Tribe 17:32, June 28, 2020 (EDT)

I'm the one who moved After Burner to being a dependent universe, and I was considering moving Getsu Fuma Den as well, if not for its true origin being listed directly in the game (versus the After Burner song only being listed as coming from Bayonetta). It is a little complicated, and I wouldn't mind giving it its own section again, but it's only indirectly mentioned at most. ~ Serena Strawberry (talk) 17:44, June 28, 2020 (EDT)

For that matter, does Guiness World Records count as a franchise referenced through the Tips? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.36.239.25 (talk • contribs) 17:59, August 12, 2020 (EDT)

If this is about GWR getting its own section, a universe only gets a section here if it received direct representation in the Smash series (such as collectibles, Mii costumes, or music). GWR was only mentioned in a Tip, so it's not worth giving it its own section.

If this is about it going on the "dependent universes" sub-list, it's not a video game property, so it more belongs here. SuperSmashTurtles of the Turtle Tribe 19:26, August 12, 2020 (EDT)

Question about musical references

The Midna's Lament remix by Hideaki Kobayashi in Ultimate contains a tiny portion of the main theme of Phantasy Star Online. I was wondering if this was enough to garner an entry on the page as a minor universe. I know I'm biased, because it's my favorite game, but I'm just curious. -- Apocalypso (talk) 18:02, August 28, 2020 (EDT)

This edit summary pretty much explains why that game is not on the list. SuperSmashTurtles of the Turtle Tribe 18:23, August 28, 2020 (EDT)

I don't really see how the reference wasn't intentional. Hideaki Kobayashi composed the PSO soundtrack, and that's his biggest claim to fame, so it would make sense if he put that in there. Plus, I can't find a single song in the Zelda universe that matches the notes and rhythm. I'm 99% certain it's intentional. -- Apocalypso (talk) 20:05, August 28, 2020 (EDT)

You may claim it's 99% intentional, but as far as I'm aware, there's no clear-cut confirmation that the similarities were intentional. We're not the kind of Wiki to make speculations. SuperSmashTurtles of the Turtle Tribe 22:06, August 28, 2020 (EDT)

Well, in any case, if we get a Phantasy Star Online Spirit Event this year to commemorate PSO's 20th anniversary (which, while I don't think necessarily WILL happen, but I certainly want to), then I'll get my way regardless. -- Apocalypso (talk) 10:10, August 29, 2020 (EDT)

I suppose for that matter, the menu theme of Melee sounding like Terranigma falls under similar territory? https://youtu.be/GxpJVR9G4nY?t=3119

I think I brought this up in another edit summary, but even if it was the same composer, I don't think it's an intentional, no. Since this is a Zelda song, the composer most likely wouldn't include a reference to an unrelated game without a good reason. With music, you'll often find that segments of melodies can unintentionally resemble other songs, and without explicit confirmation, you can't know if they'd meant it as an intentional reference or if it was simply them reusing an idea that came to their head before. Another example is that the main theme of Melee contains a segment that sounds similar to Butter Building from Kirby's Adventure, but was likely not intended, even though the composer also worked on Kirby games; there isn't any particular reason for the melody to be a reference. It mostly just comes down to speculation, which is discouraged on the wiki. ~ Serena Strawberry (talk) 18:28, October 14, 2020 (EDT)

Should Pong count as a dependent universe?

Since the TV Game AT is based off of something only imitating Pong (albeit extremely strongly compared to the following examples), should it really be counted as a dependent universe like the others are? Shouldn't that also mean accounting for other video game series referenced through some imitation of them found in Smash in whatever way? Like Shovel Knight I think imitating Scrooge McDuck's "cane pogo stick" move from the Ducktales game, or Smash 4's Target game imitating Angry Birds (or Crush the Castle or whatever), or the examples listed above on this very talk page of music that sounds like it might be referencing certain games? Then again, is it simply because the TV Game AT is so abundantly clear in its parroting by being a literal clone of Pong (without having legal issues, too) as opposed to other examples that are kinda more vague? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.30.210.113 (talk • contribs) 21:35, January 2, 2021 (EDT)

Hmm, I'm not sure. I'm kind of iffy on the idea of a "dependent universes" section in general. I would say this doesn't count, though; even if it's very obviously a Pong clone, legally it's not referencing Pong. ~ StrawberryChan (talk) 22:00, January 2, 2021 (EST)

What about Magnavox? The Table Tennis game on the Magnavox Odyssey pre-dates Pong (Magnavox sued Atari for ripping them off). Nintendo distributed the Odyssey in Japan, and got a license from Magnavox to produce their own tennis games on their Color TV-Game systems. Although the Color TV-Game features scoring (which Pong did but the original Magnavox game didn't), I think Nintendo's connection to Magnavox might warrant the original Table Tennis game a mention here. --Clandohoome (talk) 13:41, January 3, 2021 (EST)

This edit

I'm not about to start an edit war, but I thought I'd come here with some interesting information:

I asked a friend of mine who's a huge Kingdom Hearts II nerd, and according to him, not only does Octaslash in Advent Children not look like the Octaslash from KHII, but that particular scene is exclusively from Advent Children Complete, which came out in 2009, four years after Kingdom Hearts II came out in 2005.

However, neither the Kingdom Hearts Wikia nor Kingdom Hearts Wiki have any mention of an attack named "Glint", and an attack under the name "Continuous Slash" (the translation of 連続斬り on the Final Fantasy Wiki) doesn't even belong to Sephiroth in KHII. The FF Wiki also specifies: "Though the attacks resemble Octaslash, Kingdom Hearts II predates Crisis Core, where the attack first appeared and was named." Aidan, the Celebratory Rurouni 22:53, January 6, 2021 (EST)

Not gonna lie, I didn't even notice the "Complete" part on the "Advent Children" section of Octaslash's FF Wiki page, so I just assumed Advent Children had the earliest prototype for Octaslash. Guess I jumped the gun on that one. SuperSmashTurtles of the Turtle Tribe 23:02, January 6, 2021 (EST)

Crisis Core still predates Advent Children Complete either way, given that it came out in Japan in 2007. Aidan, the Celebratory Rurouni 23:25, January 6, 2021 (EST)

Minecraft Creeper costume

Is it possible the Creeper costume references the Creeper costume found in Terraria as a dependent universe? That also had a bipedal Creeper costume. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.30.210.113 (talk • contribs) 21:36, January 10, 2021 (EST)

Someone forgot to put double Eleven in the list of minor companies

Someone forgot to put double Eleven in the list of minor companies if you forgot who they are they developed Minecraft dungeons and that is represented by 2 songs —Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.15.147.53 (talk • contribs) 09:44, January 29, 2021 (EST)

There's already a talk page that discusses about companies with minor representation. Please discuss there, instead. SuperSmashTurtles of the Turtle Tribe 11:00, January 29, 2021 (EST)

Thank you

Thank you to whoever added kingdom hearts to the "Dependent universes" section and fixed all the grammatical Errors I made and went over my head 73.15.147.53 17:26, January 31, 2021 (EST)

Should tech demos count?

their are some game that were influenced by their tech demo counterpart or tech demos that became games under a new coat of paint or in some case, new features 73.15.147.53 17:32, January 31, 2021 (EST)

Unreleased versions of games generally are not counted, so something like "Star Fox Adventures derives from Dinosaur Planet" or "Nintendo Labo Robot Kit is inspired by Miyamoto's Project Giant Robot demo" would be unnecessary considering in both cases the latter was never a finished game to begin with. Miles (talk) 18:22, January 31, 2021 (EST)

Should NiGHTs into dreams count

Should it be apart of Dependent universes since one of sonic's alternative costume, and before you say no, 2 words, Anarchy Reins 73.15.147.53 14:49, February 2, 2021 (EST)

Half of Bayonetta's alternate costumes are directly based on her appearance in Anarchy Reigns, even the pose used for official renders is nearly identical to her official AR pose. The NiGHTs resemblance is just that, a resemblance. Though I'm not sure of any other characters that reference a series outside of their own, so I'm not sure how to fully judge this. --CanvasK (talk) 15:03, February 2, 2021 (EST)

The idea that Sonic's costume is based on Nights is, at best, speculative - and certainly not definite enough to count for this page. Miles (talk) 15:33, February 2, 2021 (EST)

Should infineminer and/or Zombie land count?

I mean the former was the main inspiration, and the latter had the same model on what would be Steve 73.15.147.53 01:59, February 7, 2021 (EST)

Pretty sure the latter one is speculation. Also, we don't just note every universe that inspired certain assets of other universes because that would 1) bloat the page with gazillion borderline-related universes and 2) its unneeded. Superbound (talk) 10:41, February 7, 2021 (EST)

On a side note, what on earth is this Zombie Land game you're talking about? I tried looking it up, but all I could find are the horror-comedy movie franchise of the same name and its video game adaptation. SuperSmashTurtles of the Turtle Tribe 10:53, February 7, 2021 (EST)

I meant Zombie town, oops :p. 73.15.147.53 14:54, February 7, 2021 (EST)