Talk:Banjo/Archive 1

Split

These are 2 totally different charecters. if Luma and Pikmin can get a page surely these 2 can. XtraTalk Edits 12:58, June 11, 2019 (EDT)

100% agree. SerpentKing 12:58, June 11, 2019 (EDT)

Yeah, I think it would be better, since Kazooie has her own personality and her own attacks. Anthony1996 (talk) 13:02, June 11, 2019 (EDT)

How about we just make this page a disambiguation and make it link to Banjo Kazooie, & Banjo & Kazooie (SSBU) XtraTalk Edits 13:01, June 11, 2019 (EDT)

I vehemently oppose splitting; there's no mechanic of them operating separately as characters like Pikmin or Luma which have individual actions. A better analogue is Duck Hunt - two entities functioning as one duo. Miles (talk) 13:04, June 11, 2019 (EDT)

Difference between duckhunt and this is that duckhunt is just a duck, not really a charecter. Kazooie is a charecter. XtraTalk Edits 13:06, June 11, 2019 (EDT)

It doesn't really make sense to talk about them separately, though. They're near-universally handled as a duo, and there's little to say about them separately when the character slot is named for both of them as a duo, not even with "&" like Rosalina. Miles (talk) 13:11, June 11, 2019 (EDT)

That's actually what I thought when I wrote the page. I don't know. I knew this discussion would happen. Anthony1996 (talk) 13:25, June 11, 2019 (EDT)

Oppose The difference between Banjo and Rosalina is that Banjo is almost never seen without Kazooie, while Rosalina is almost always without a Luma outside of Smash. Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Gamer Leave a message if needed 13:12, June 11, 2019 (EDT)

Support. To be completely honest I wouldn't mind splitting the dog and duck, too. TheNuttyOne 13:15, June 11, 2019 (EDT)

Miles, this is about the character page, not the fighter page. Smash mechanics are irrelevant here. SerpentKing 13:16, June 11, 2019 (EDT)

Oppose. Luma, Pikmin and Kazooie are separate characters with their own abilities yes but Kazooie is more tailored as a connection to banjo. it wouldn't feel right if they have separate pages Mr.gameandfight (talk) 13:37, June 11, 2019 (EDT)

Oppose. If we're gonna do it for Rosaluma, why not Ice Climbers? And that would be stupid. I think because it's one fighter, we should keep it to one wiki page (if not to save server space, at least because they're the same fighter, just with two characters.) Here's what I'm proposing. I think it would be better to have two separate *sections* on the pages, but not two pages. The sections could tell us the roles of both characters in that one fighter. What each one does in moves/taunts/whatever else. That should be the standard for Rosaluma, Duck Hunt, etc. That's how it should be done in my opinion. N0where (talk) 13:51, June 11, 2019 (EDT)

Oppose. Banjo and Kazooi ar e more like the duck hunt Dog and Bird, they more or less share the same skeleton. I dont think Kazooi can be KO'ed on her own without Banjo, again like the duck from duck Hunt. Olimar and rosalina can function without pikmin and luma, but Banjo and Kazooi don't seem like they'd be able to function without one another.
Ixbran (talk) 13:54, June 11, 2019 (EDT)

This is a charecter page, not a fighter page we shouldn't have to worry about how they play just the fact that these are 2 very diffferent charecters. XtraTalk Edits 13:56, June 11, 2019 (EDT)

Support The official website calls them Banjo AND Kazooie rather than "Banjo-Kazooie" like the trailer did. Gagesango (talk) 14:11, June 11, 2019 (EDT)

Oppose Does Duck Hunt Dog and the ducks have their own page? Obviously not the best example but Duck Hunt Dog is never seen without its duck. CookiesCreme 14:43, June 11, 2019 (EDT)

Here's the thing: Rosalina and Luma are two different entities with two different movesets. Pikmin help out Olimar by being his attacks. From the looks of it, Banjo and Kazooie are pretty much one entity - they function as one being, much like Duck Hunt. Aidan, the Rurouni 14:44, June 11, 2019 (EDT)

Once again though, this article is not about their appearance in smash. Therefore their smash appearance (which I agree: one article) should not be considered here. SerpentKing 14:54, June 11, 2019 (EDT)

I think Aidan's point is that the only other instance of two separate characters fighting as one "entity" -- Duck Hunt -- isn't split. Therefore, it would be inconsistent to split Banjo and Kazooie but not the dog and ducks. Like I said, I personally would prefer splitting both. TheNuttyOne 15:00, June 11, 2019 (EDT)

I oppose to the split because of Duck Hunt and Ice Climbers. If we split Banjo-Kazooie than Popo and Nana would need to be separated and so would the nameless dog and duck. And besides, we're Smash Wiki so we should have emphasis on the Super Smash Bros. series. SeanWheeler (talk) 16:45, June 11, 2019 (EDT)

Weak oppose for the same reasoning. They're distinct as characters, yes, but they're very closely related in Smash and in their native games, just like Duck Hunt and the Ice Climbers. Nyargleblargle (Contribs) 17:27, June 11, 2019 (EDT)

Oppose for these same reasons. It's also worth noting that Pikmin and Luma freely respawn and don't affect their base character's moveset much when separated, so they are essentially a separate entity; Duck Hunt and Banjo & Kazooie can't be separated at all, and KOing Nana significantly alters Popo's moveset and gameplay, so these are all more integral as a pair. I've switched to tentative support per the drafts provided below. DryKirby64 (talk) 20:59, June 11, 2019 (EDT)

Support To me the "&" is acknowledging that these are two distinct entities like Rosalina & Luma, joined up. If they had called it "Banjo-Kazooie" I think I would actually say "keep it together, that's the name of a duo like Duck Hunt." Their "&" choice is consistent with the fact that these characters sometimes do appear separately or without the other, such as the cases of Diddy Kong Racing and some Minecraft skins. --Porplemontage (talk) 20:47, June 11, 2019 (EDT)

This is their main character page, correct? Not their fighter page. They are two separate individuals, just like with Luma and Pikmin. Duck Hunt is a uniqe case as the name refers to both simultaneously. The other characters mentioned have the name of both characters. I think its worth noting that Banjo and Kazooie do have separate pages on their own wiki.

I think Banjo and Kazooie should have their own character pages. Even if Kazooie is not separate in terms of move set, characters that are part of a move get their own pages. Rush, Beat, Lloid, Proto Man, Tom Nook, Phantom, Navi, and so on. This is not their fighter page Wolff (talk) 20:56, June 11, 2019 (EDT)

Split. Banjo and Kazooie, as characters outside of the Smash Bros. series (which is the context here), are very distinct and should not be lumped together on the same page. Toomai Glittershine The Brass 21:02, June 11, 2019 (EDT)

For the record, I would not be opposed to using this logic to also split Duck Hunt's dog and duck pages, but that's a much weaker case as they have almost no individual characterization. Popo and Nana are undifferentiated palette swaps and should remain together. Toomai Glittershine Da Bomb 21:04, June 11, 2019 (EDT)

Hooh boy this debate spiraled out of control quickly. Throw my hat in the ring to split them. As Porplemontage mentioned, the two characters do appear separately from each other in some instances (most notably Banjo being in Diddy Kong Racing but not Kazooie). Also, the reason why we don’t split the dog and the ducks is because they don’t have enough history apart from each other to be slit. Same with the Ice Climbers. Rosalina has been in games without Luma, and Pikmin have been in games without Olimar. Since Banjo had been in games withoug Kazooie, we should split them for consistency as well. Lou Cena (talk) 04:10, June 12, 2019 (EDT)

Support: Ren Amamiya and Arsene lol.

If it wasn't clear, I also Support the split. Wolff (talk) 02:41, June 12, 2019 (EDT)

Oppose, seeing as Rosalina and the Lumas can go alone. Banjo and Kazooie meanwhile have no means of separation in-game. --Tailikku (talk) 09:18, June 12, 2019 (EDT)

Do you know the difference between a character page from a fighter page? Because this is a character page. 172.58.173.83 11:31, June 12, 2019 (EDT)

Fighter pages shows how a fighter works in an installment. The fighter pages have an abbreviation for the installment (64, SSBM, SSBB, SSB4, and SSBU). Character pages, which is what this is, mainly shows where the originated from. With the exception of the Koopalings and Hero, all individual characters get their own character page. The Koopalings as a whole have a page on the Mario wiki, as well as individual pages. Wolff (talk) 14:13, June 12, 2019 (EDT)

I'm neutral about the split. On one hand, it makes sense to discuss characters of contrasting personalities separately. On the other hand, it's hard to talk about Banjo without Kazooie and vise versa. CardboardLuigi (talk) 17:39, June 12, 2019 (EDT)

The Banjo Kazooie Wiki has no problems as treating them as individuals with their own pages. We probably wouldn't either. Wolff (talk) 17:54, June 12, 2019 (EDT)

Oppose They are a duo and are not seen without each other, unlike Rosalina, who is standalone. —Meester Tweester (talk) 20:07, June 12, 2019 (EDT)

Diddy Kong Racing says hi. TheNuttyOne 20:10, June 12, 2019 (EDT)

Hi. —Meester Tweester (talk) 20:12, June 12, 2019 (EDT)

This is indeed a difficult problem, iI can't seem to find a unified standard to explain the present situation of all combinations characters, the only way is for us to set a standard now.--Capstalker (talk) 11:15, June 13, 2019 (EDT)

Here's the way I see it:

• Rosalina is, by all means, the default character, in both Smash and Mario Galaxy. She is the caretaker of the Lumas, and is treated as her own separate entity. Therefore, she and Luma have separate main pages on here, despite essentially functioning as one character in Smash.
• Olimar is the main character of the Pikmin games, despite the creatures sharing the name with the franchise. Olimar uses the Pikmin to complete tasks and get his ship parts in order to return back home, and the Pikmin play an integral part of his moveset as well. Therefore, he has a separate page from the Pikmin, despite essentially functioning as one character in Smash.
• The dog and duck are a bit of an odd case, as it IS an early NES title with little to no story, but for all intents and purposes, both the dog and the duck are the main characters of the game, with the duck being the objective, and the dog being the one that shows up every time you do something (to either gather a duck you, the player, shot down, or laugh in your face when you miss like the asshole he is). Therefore, the dog and the duck get one page, because they both share an equal role in their game of origin.
• Banjo and Kazooie, despite being separate characters and Banjo having decidedly more of an appearance in the Banjo-Kazooie games than Kazooie, are, similarly, both the main characters of the franchise. Both of them share adventures, dialogue, and use each other to help them complete their individual attacks. Therefore, Banjo and Kazooie should share a page, because, like the dog and the duck, they both share an equal role in their franchise of origin.

Aidan, the Rurouni 14:13, June 13, 2019 (EDT)

Aside from Diddy Kong Racing, do cameos in other games count? Banjo has appeared by himself in some format in Conker's Bad Fur Day and Viva Piñata. If not, Banjo and Kazooie also have the Split-Up ability in Banjo-Tooie so they can do separate tasks. Wolff (talk) 17:47, June 13, 2019 (EDT)

I guess the cameos would make a difference, if it's solely Banjo, and, thinking about the origins of Banjo-Kazooie (i.e., Project Dream), he was always the center of the project - I guess my main issue is it feels weird to shove Kazooie off to the side and have Banjo be the focal point, when, in both the games of origin and Smash, that's not the case. Aidan, the Rurouni 17:59, June 13, 2019 (EDT)

They are separate entities. Here are the list of Banjo-Kazooie cameos. Their out of universe cameos are at the bottom of the list. Wolff (talk) 23:40, June 13, 2019 (EDT)

Thinking about it, the duo are, in essence, their own original separate characters. Even characters who are one and the same are separated, so, even if the two were meant to essentially be one character, it's not like this would be something new for us to do. I'd also like to call attention to Porple's point, in that the Duck Hunt name (and even the European counterpart, Duck Hunt Duo) signifies one essential entity, whereas every other character that has a helping hand is separated by an &, as seen in Rosalina & Luma and, even if only in Japanese, Pikmin & Olimar.

The only issue I see is, even though this page is meant to describe the characters in their appearance(s) outside of Smash, Smash itself puts an emphasis on the duo rather than Banjo. Rosalina lacks a Luma in her stock icon, as does Olimar with Pikmin, while Duck Hunt has both the dog and the duck; that said, the duck is absent in the stock icon in Smash 4, so maybe that point is moot after all. What's also noteworthy (at least, to me) is, while it is true that Banjo did initially have his own individual page due to him cameoing in DKR (and not Kazooie), the MarioWiki also separates them.

Overall, if I had all the power on the wiki, I would keep the duo on one page, but seeing as how I'm not, I am willing to cover information separately. I reiterate that it feels weird to me for us to place a spotlight on Banjo more than Kazooie, but given the franchise itself (and its original form, Project Dream), I can see a case being made to do so. I would also like to remind the opposing side that this specific page (and, assuming this goes through, the two pages it would make) is meant to describe the characters outside of their Smash appearance - not their appearance within Smash. There is no debate as to whether or not we would split that, and I would like it to be kept out of this discussion, as it has no relevance to the matter at hand. Aidan, the Rurouni 16:13, June 14, 2019 (EDT)

It's the same point, though. The two are near-universally treated as a duo, and a few minor instances of them being separable really don't change that. It seems very unambiguous that they are this kind of 2-in-1 character, and as such there's little point to discussing them separately from one another. Miles (talk) 16:18, June 14, 2019 (EDT)

The fact that Banjo has one more playable appearance before Kazooie should say hello. Also, remember Banjo-Tooie? Kazooie is nowhere to be found on that title, even if I think she is a major part of that game. They can be talked about separately, Lou Cena (talk) 19:57, June 14, 2019 (EDT)

The difference of the Zelda characters is that each iteration are alternate versions of the exact same character, which is why they share a page on the Zelda wiki despite technically being different characters. (Toon Link and Young Link are only used to refer to the iterations outside of the main Zelda series). We are also going by that logic for the Hero of Dragon Quest despite being separated on the Dragon Quest wiki. I do think it makes more sense to separate Banjo and Kazooie's character pages. I think the only reason the Koopalings get grouped together on both this and the Mario wikis (they also have their individual pages on the Mario wiki) is because they have a title that refers to all of them, being the "Koopalings". Duck Hunt, same with Mr. Game & Watch, weren't really considered "characters" until after they appeared as playable ones in Smash. Wolff (talk) 16:36, June 14, 2019 (EDT)

(Reset indent) I was more referring to the fact that Zelda and Sheik are (or, I guess, were) able to swap between one another because they are the same character, as is the case with Samus and Zero Suit Samus. Aidan, the Rurouni 16:42, June 14, 2019 (EDT)

Sheik and Tetra are considered to be different characters despite technically still being Zelda (Both having their own pages). It can be argued that Tetra herself is diffidently the Zelda of WW & PH's era, as shown by the events in ST. Wolff (talk) 16:50, June 14, 2019 (EDT)

If the character page does not need to consider Fighter. I was wondering if we could merge Link's and Samus's pages, excluding status changes like Zelda and Sheik, it doesn't seem to be a bad idea.--Capstalker (talk) 09:29, June 15, 2019 (EDT)

Samus and Zero Suit Samus do have different pages on the Meroid wiki so we can probably keep them separate. Despite that, I don't think Link should be merged with Young Link or Toon Link (or each other). Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf have been alternate ierations of the same character in Smash , where as Young Link and Toon Link stayed as two different specific iterations. It's possible I think that because only Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf have changed iterations in Smash while the other two have not. I mean, Dr. Mario has his own page (that has his one page of the Mario wiki), of which I do not think it should be merged with Mario either. Wolff (talk) 12:21, June 15, 2019 (EDT)

But I imagined, even if we doing, there would be no problem. After all, we would create separate pages for every iteration of the Figher. We can put multiple Fighters on the same character page--Capstalker (talk) 12:32, June 15, 2019 (EDT)

I'm not sure, considering the 3 Links are all fighters and only one has ever changed iterations. Although a more unique case, it's still being debated on how to list the Heroes from Dragon Quest since 4 of them are playable and 7 of them cameo in the Final Smash (which mean they get a page). Wolff (talk) 12:56, June 15, 2019 (EDT)

Information: I have produced a draft of what such a split might look like here and here. Toomai Glittershine The Brazen 12:15, June 15, 2019 (EDT)

Support: I have nothing to add to this discussion that hasnt already been said at length above. VoqéoT 13:32, June 15, 2019 (EDT)

@Aidan, I don't see how splitting the pages shoves Kazooie aside? If anything, keeping them merged treats Banjo as if he were more prominent than Kazooie, while splitting them would depict them as characters who share the spotlight. With them merged and Banjo's name being listed first, it seems like he is more important while Kazooie is an unimportant sidekick. By granting Kazooie her own page, we can better cover how she is also the primary character of the franchise.

That said, Toomai's drafts pretty clearly prove that there is plenty of information for both pages. It also significantly cleans up the trivia section. I'm still a strong supporter of splitting. TheNuttyOne 22:59, June 15, 2019 (EDT)

Although I agree with that, I think the trivia that applies to both characters should be on both pages. Wolff (talk) 23:25, June 15, 2019 (EDT)

@Nutta, what I'm specifically referring to would be this:

...which puts Banjo in the spotlight, and shoves Kazooie away as a side character (like Luma and the Pikmin), which, given the franchise as a whole, isn't necessarily the case. However, a workaround to avoid that could be:

Maybe I'm overthinking this, and maybe it's a bit too complicated, but this is definitely my thought process. I'd also argue that having the & emphasizes more than separating them that they're equally sharing the spotlight, though I can also see why you'd say that separating them does that more. That said, I am indifferent on splitting; I can see arguments on both sides. Aidan, the Rurouni 00:59, June 16, 2019 (EDT)

I do like how the second one looks much better than the first. Wolff (talk) 13:22, June 16, 2019 (EDT)

---

It has been nearly a week since any comment from the opposing side has made a comment in regards to either an argument made for splitting the page, or a reason as to why the page should not be split. While I am aware that the wiki makes decisions based on consensus, I am also opposed to the idea of prolonging a dispute if no one is willing to speak up. That said, I won't shut this discussion down, solely for that reason - it would be unfair to the people who want to voice their opinion on the matter.

Taking all of this into account, the split argument has a considerable amount of evidence and support behind it - while the opposing side does as well, it is mostly in regards to how they are as a fighter, which is, as multiple people have said before, irrelevant to main character pages. If people can give a reason why these pages should not be split and have it be relevant to the characters as they are rather than the fighter the duo makes up, then it will have been made clear that there is no central, consensus-based opinion on the matter. Two users have done so already, but if these pages are to be kept as one, then they will need more support for a consensus-based opinion. Aidan, the Rurouni 19:15, June 18, 2019 (EDT)

The main reason outside of the two acting as one fighter for keeping them on one page was that “the two are treated near-universally as a duo.” While this is true in Banjo-Kazooie 1, the fact that Banjo was in Diddy Kong Racing but not Kazooie, as well as the fact that Kazooie is not mentioned on the title for Banjo-Tooie, should show that they aren’t always treated as a duo the way the ice climbers are. You can safely talk about Banjo without any mention of Kazooie, and Vice Versa. The same is not true for the ice climbers. Lou Cena (talk) 19:33, June 18, 2019 (EDT)

Whether or not "Kazooie" shows up on the game's name is irrelevant to the character itself, especially when the example you've used is still clearly derivative of her own name.

Either way, there's still plenty of other examples of her being noteworthy on her own, some of which I haven't seen discussed earlier:

• As already mentioned, she can separate herself from Banjo in Banjo-Tooie to do certain tasks that Banjo combined/alone can't.
• Her kidnapping is a major plot point in Banjo-Kazooie: Grunty's Revenge.
• She is a separate character from Banjo in Banjo-Pilot, complete with different stats from him.

For these reasons (and likely some others I've overlooked), I support a split. Nokii — 20:55, June 18, 2019 (EDT)

My main problem with the split is that I believe, contrary to the above, you essentially can't talk about Banjo individually without mentioning Kazooie, or vice versa. While they are split in some cases, the duo's odd friendship and synergy is essential to their characters, not just gameplay-wise but personality-wise. Banjo's easygoing personality plays off of Kazooie's brash nature, forming the entire basis for their character dynamic. If you split them, you'd be mostly copy-pasting the exact same points that are currently talked about on the main page, ultimately leading to a redundancy issue. The only difference on Banjo's page would be a passing mention of his debut in Diddy Kong Racing. Rosalina commonly appears without Lumas and the Pikmin commonly appear without Olimar; Kazooie never appears without Banjo, period. DryKirby64 (talk) 21:27, June 18, 2019 (EDT)

That's not actually true. If you mean, "Kazooie never appears in a game without Banjo", then, yes, that is true. The matter isn’t that Kazooie hasn’t appeared in a game without Banjo, it is that Banjo has appeared in games without Kazooie. Outside of the Duck's trophy in Melee and sticker in Brawl, the duck & dog of Duck Hunt have never appeared without each other. Same goes for the Ice Climbers. Banjo has appeared by himself without Kazooie in Diddy Kong Racing and in a few cameos in other games. Kat & Ana, who always appear to share a wiki page regardless of the wiki, have never appeared without each other in a game, unlike Banjo & Kazooie. Yes, they are an inseparable pair, but there is enough info on Banjo and Kazooie individually to have their own pages. Since it isn't uncommen for Origin and Trivia information to overlap between characters, I don’t think the repeated info in those cases would be a problem. Wolff (talk) 21:54, June 18, 2019 (EDT)

I did mean in terms of appearing in a game, individually, yes. Having seen Toomai's concept pages after making this post, the idea is actually less redundant than I was thinking, so I'm warming up to the idea of a split. I'll go ahead and switch to tentative support if it's executed properly. DryKirby64 (talk) 00:03, June 19, 2019 (EDT)

Additional support argument: No one has questioned having a page for Arsene, and he is much more a part of Joker (manifestiation of his personal subconscious) than Kazooie is of Banjo (best friends). Toomai Glittershine The Researcher 22:02, June 18, 2019 (EDT)

I want to say this is a case of it being influenced by the in-game function, as Joker can fight separately without Arsene in the same manner Rosalina can fight without a Luma. Banjo and Kazooie are linked much more closely in the context of Smash, but the idea of "should a character's page be influenced by their depiction in Smash" has been covered dozens of times so I won't repeat that. DryKirby64 (talk) 00:03, June 19, 2019 (EDT)

You forgot the premise again, discuss only characters, not Fighters. In fact, Ice Climbers can also fight alone.--Capstalker (talk) 00:41, June 19, 2019 (EDT)

I support a split. What convinces me is the "separate character vs. function in Smash" argument. While Kazooie might just be a part of Banjo's moveset in Ultimate, she is a separate character. Thus, if Arsene can get a page, so can Kazooie. However, we now must address the matter of the Duck Hunt dog and duck being on the same page and maybe even Nana and Popo, for consistency's sake. Also, I like Aidan's second idea for the template at the bottom of the page. Looks sharp. The same treatment should be extended to Rosalina and Luma in the Mario universe template. John HUAH! 12:07, June 19, 2019 (EDT)

I'm going to oppose the idea of separating both the dog and duck and Popo and Nana, on the grounds that the "Duck Hunt" name, both outside and inside of Smash, is used to refer to the dog and the duck because they have no otherwise official name, and the Ice Climbers are, unlike Banjo and Kazooie, not seen without one another (with the exception of 1P Ice Climbers). It was one of the major things about them: they were, and still are, an inseparable duo. RelaxAlax put it quite well in this video:

“

Many fans have suggested that they make up for losing the Ice Climbers by including a single Ice Climber instead. Y'know, because in Ice Climbers' single player, you only played as Popo, and if you wanted both of them, you could have them through alternate costumes, like Wii Fit Trainer and Villager. ...no. I don't think so. That would not be the Ice Climbers, and I think Sakurai knows this. If he wanted to do them like that, I think he would've done it in the first place. But he didn't. A solo Ice Climber would defeat the reasoning as to why Sakurai added them way back in Melee. And though Nana can be stupider than a pile of Wii shovelware, I would not give her up just to have Popo. The nature of the Ice Climbers and their teamwork would be lost.

”

There's also the fact that the name "Ice Climbers", much like the "Duck Hunt" name, refers to the two of them as one entity both inside and outside of Smash, unlike "Rosalina & Luma", "Pikmin & Olimar", "Banjo & Kazooie", where it's instead two different entities as one duo. Aidan, the Rurouni 13:04, June 19, 2019 (EDT)

Are we in agreement, then? The floor is open to anyone who wants to disagree, but to me, it seems as though a consensus has been reached. If anyone has anything more they'd like to add, now's the time to do it. Aidan, the Rurouni 16:09, June 19, 2019 (EDT)