Talk:Tier list/Archive 2

old comments

THE LIST ON HERE IS THE TIER LIST. PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE IT. 21:21, 21 July 2006 (GMT)69.229.17.191 21:21, 21 July 2006 (GMT)Typh.

Where did this SSB tier list come from? There is no citation. Please provide a link. --nealdt 06:07, August 3, 2006 (GMT)

The best I can do for a citation is a link to a topic that cited it. But if you ask any really competitive SSB player (Isai, moogle, dark link, etc.) I guarantee you they'll agree. --ycz12

I was thinking about going in and replacing the pictures for the characters myself. I got photoshop, so don't worry about the quality. But I got one question: Should the picture be a closeup of their face and upper body? Or just sort of a body shot doing some sort of trademark technique? My vote goes to a body shot. Oddeven2002 02:43, September 6, 2006 (GMT)

Somebody set up us the bomb.

"There is no "official" tier list". Of course not, tier lists are always fan made. Should we remove this? – Smiddle ( Talk • Conts ) 20:48, January 23, 2007 (GMT)

That would seem appropriate, because this is heavily opinion based. --Dinoshaur 08:16, August 22, 2007 (EDT)

Wrong. It is part of Professional play, and is made by the number of combos each player can do. It isn't opinionated.

Thedude3445 2:06 PM, December 27, 2007 (EST)

Professionals only use Fox, they use no items and they only play on Final Destination. It is indeed opinionated.

Stupid fad is stupid. And please sign your comments, Desuman. NeonCrusader 16:29, February 20, 2008 (EST)

Untrue. The tier list is not holy, but it is fairly accurate. A lot of the people who post here are amateurs, but some are professionals or researchers. I believe it is fairly likely that the tier list should be more or less considered official.

That depends on how you see official, sir. According to my sources most take official things as something the developers of the game has said, and not fanbased material. That could mean that the tier list is not official. Though Nintendo never seems to ever release any tier list you can go ahead and say; Yes, it is official. I hope my opinion was good enough for you. This was an automatic message by AICM 411.

Llamalord 22:10, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, 1. Having an "official" tier list completely defeats the purpose of balance. Developers almost never intend for one character to be better than another.

2. Smashboards is pretty much the birthplace of competitive Smash. -Capefeather 00:21, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Center

I don't really like the centering. – Smiddle ( Talk • Conts ) 18:22, February 20, 2007 (GMT)

Neither do I. Methinks we should put the tier lists together on the right and left-align the text. – MaskedMarth ^{(t c)} 14:23, March 12, 2007 (GMT)

Aww.. I quite like the centring. D=

I'll make the text better. if you don't like that you can change it back. -User:Pyoro T/sig

Section about tier arguments?

I think that would be a good idea for this article. This is one of the most viewed articles on SmashWiki and I thought it would be nice to beef it up a little. – MaskedMarth ^{(t c)} 19:24, April 4, 2007 (GMT)

Mmm... beef... oh, yeah, good idea. – Smiddle ( Talk • Conts ) 19:31, April 4, 2007 (GMT)

Hmm, I guess it's okay. Anyways, if this page isn't already, it should only be editable by mods, or special privalegded/trusted SWF members. And another thing, what to do with the top when Brawl is out, and we're doing the Brawl tiers=??? Well, I guess we'll just wait until it happens, but be prepared for possible changes to this page then. Johnknight1 16:20, October 9, 2007 (PCT)

Stupid vandals.

Changing it back now... -_- NeonCrusader 22:42, August 10, 2007 (EDT)

Would there be anyway to protect this page? (IIRC, then only Admins could make edits; that would solve most of the vandalism problem) NeonCrusader 15:49, October 31, 2007 (EDT)

Thanks. Hate to sound ungrateful, but it took long enough >_> NeonCrusader 21:10, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Ness rocks man,

Wait a sec...

Samus is at the bottom of the original tier list? I thought Link was the worst character in the original Smash. Teamrocketspy621 20:02, October 12, 2007 (EDT)

In Brawl?

How long do you think it will be until Brawl has an official tier list? And will there be agreements on the status of certain Brawl stages for tournament play? Currently, all Brawl stages say "??" for their tournament status. Dogman15 00:03, February 17, 2008 (EST)

It'll take a while. Don't attempt to put anything up regarding it as of yet. NeonCrusader 16:38, February 18, 2008 (EST)

Yeah, it'll definitely be a while. A long while. Llamalord 22:12, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

It's entirely too early to tell. The game's going to need to be out longer. It's not even released in the US officially yet, let alone any other places short of Japan. Players would have to get a feel for each character and trends would have to be seen before talks about tier lists could really start. -- Ph00kedup 18:44, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I've checked the Tier list page and there's still no Brawl tier list. Fox should be top tier again, followed by Falco then Lucario. -- FoxMcCloud251 20:06, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Just be patient. I'm sure the SBR will bring out a list sometime this summer or later this year. --Sky (t · c · w) 21:56, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Hopefully never. Tiers are for queers. And no matter what poor excuse people use to defend it, that's the truth.

GameFAQs topic and XiF's essay

As the pages in the title no longer exist, does anyone have an archived copy of either? Stupid GameFAQs not implementing the archive sooner. We also might as well remove the link for now because it's broken. -Capefeather 21:09, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I found this thread from 2007 that has the alleged current SSB tier list. The weird thing is that Samus and Link are switched. Which tier list is the right one? -Capefeather 17:42, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

The Tier List on this website is right. Link is bottom tier and Samus is above Link. -FoxMcCloud251 20:13, 19 March 2008

Tier list for Brawl

Obviously the tier list for Brawl will change signifigantly. All of the upper tier characters have received big hits, Peach getting hit the worst. By contrast, some of the lower tiers got better. Bowser will be at least middle tier now, Pikachu has one of the best FS's, Game and Watch is heavier (a bit), etc. Something to the effect that the current list will drastically change would be a nice addition, with also the FACT(It is, no denying) that MetaKnight, Pit, and Wolf will be contenders for the top (With Dedede, and Lucario following). I have no account, so, no sig...71.170.166.146 05:01, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

One wonders if FSs will be allowed in tournies. That could change the tier list significantly based on tourny rules. --Sky (t · c · w) 01:53, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I doubt FS's will be allowed, given that the Smash Ball is an item. As for who should be in the top tier, I'm leaning towards Meta Knight and Pit as being the best, but that's just my opinion. - GalaxiaD, 5:29 PM, April 17, 2008

What is the correct pronunciation?

I think that its "TIE-er," but other peolpe say "TEAR." which is it? by correct, i mean official. Pokemoneinstein 21:55, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

It's pronounced like tear. Cheetacuz007 22:10, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

You've never heard someone refer to wedding cake's tiers? - Gargomon251 01:32, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I definietely agree with Meta Knight and Pit being the two best, but I don't think Wolf can be the best character, maybe top tier, but not best; some of his landing moves a.k.a. short hop+attack+down on control stick have a little too much lag, whereas characters such as Meta Knight (if used properly) can have zero lag for their attacks after effects (ex. in the air after using special equals lag or unable to attack again until landing on the ground verses landing all of the specials on the ground (ex. attacking just before hitting the ground coming out of a shuttle loop or using a mach tornado without going up into the air). However, I've discovered a technique with Wolf that involves short hopping+laser gun+moving forward, kinda like Falco's technique from Melee. However, I can see Falco beating him, especially countering this by using short hop+deflector shield+moving forward. Plus, Falco's a it faster and probably equal to, or nearly, being as strong as Wolf as well.

Clarification?

Should it be said that the general consensus is that SSB is fairly balanced between tiers (small difference) while SSBM was more unbalance (high difference)?

Also I don't think this should be in the article: Also, tiers suck and they are retarted. all of them should be deleted and forgotten about. And the person who created tiers should go die in a fire. Mr. Game and watch shouldn't be on the bottom tier for SSBM anyway. He pwns and should be in the top tier. TIERS SUCK.

I believe that tiers are used to show the extents of characters' abilities or the skills they can preform within the game. All, more or less, are very debatable because of their generalality. Besides that, true skill comes from the gamers who used their wits and mastery of their character(s) to win the match/game. --Question Jack 23:27, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I got rid of it. MegaMario9910

"Tiers don't exist" may be true.

"Tiers don't exist". Probably they do. Probably they don't. Is every player good with Ness? Or with Mr. G&W? Or with Falco or Fox? Everyone has their own tier list. THEY MAKE THEIR OWN TIER LIST. --Willneverbeapro 03:19, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Move to the Smasher namespace

I suggest that this article be moved to the Smasher namespace for several reasons:

1. It is not NPOV like an encyclopedic article should be, and it never can/will be.

2. It is written for a very limited audience about very specific battle conditions. A tier list just as well could be created about stamina matches on Brinstar with Warp Stars being the only items. A true free for all tier list could also be created. I believe that all three of these hypothetical lists would be completely different.

I would like to hear comments from other community members about this page. Dtm142 20:29, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

1. It doesn't have to be npov; there's no policy on this wiki stating that is necessary. Nor would it fall under such rules, as it quite clearly states who determines it and why.
2. No items, 1v1 at the advanced-competition level. Is there something wrong with that? You are more than welcome to create your own set of tier lists, but yours would not be nearly so appreciated as this. You seem to think that the competitive community is a small portion of the smash community at large; I would disagree with that assumption. Furthermore, the smasher namespace is for smasher articles, not articles which interest smashers, which is another distinction you seem to have trouble with. If you were to move this, I would see little difference in moving articles such as wavedash to the smasher namespace; articles which had their own equivalents on ssb.wikia.com; that's a double standard. --Sky (t · c · w) 21:29, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

According to this, over 7 million copies of Melee have been sold. Each copy is played by at least one person, so there are millions of Melee players. Clearly the number of people who have ever been to an "official tournament" (note the use of quote marks) is a decimal percentage of that. Most of those 7 million probably haven't even heard of SmashBoards or the tournament subculture. To them, the "high tournament standards" are one possible permutation out of billions of others. Nintendo does not favour this permutation out of any others. The issue with the smasher articles was not that they were self promotion, but that they were of little interest to the majority of readers and editors of Smashwiki. That is the same issue with this - it is written only for an extermely small audience.

Also, it is common sense that a wiki with our scope (ie to create a database of information) would be written in neutral point of view. The article is in fact biased towards tournament players/pro tiers. It is an example of sensationalism (favouring the exceptional over the ordinary). Dtm142 01:38, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

"The issue with the smasher articles was not that they were self promotion" - Um, that's one of the reasons I heard! Might want to double check on that.

"It is written only for extremely small audience" - You want to go there, huh? Exposing people to the meta-level; the level which we don't even know if they have an interest in or not; is not a bad thing, in my books. Said audience gets bigger when people start reading up on it. Whether it's large or not is irrelevant. You continue to assert that there is this clear majority of readers which say that the competitive scene does not matter. I would disagree with you. The only facts you can claim are that there have been 7 million copies sold, afterwhich you give over to assumptions. I wonder; do you want me to see how many registrees there are on smashboards? 2800 x 30 = 84,000; into that 7 million boxes is 1.2%. Plus however many don't have an account but peruse the forums (otherwise known as "lurking").

"One permutation" - That's one more permutation than they knew before! That Nintendo does not favor this permutation is a non-issue; the other people in the gaming business obviously favor it, else there would not be thousands of dollars handed out annually for winning/placing at said "official tournaments" (where did the quotations come from, anyway? if they're sponsored, someone must think they're official enough).

"The article is in fact biased towards tournament players/pro tiers." Yes, that would be the point of the article. Did you miss that part somehow? The tier list has always been that way. If people want to ignore it, cool. If they just want to play the game, with the knowledge of it, cool. If they want they want to see how players that are better than the average schmoe play the game, that's cool too. It's their choice, not yours.

"It is common sense." + NPOV - I did not argue that point. I argued that you have no policy, nothing behind which the community has decided they agree with, to back you up. Do I agree with you? Certainly! Can you argue the point? Nope!

On a closing note, SmashWiki has no notability guidelines, no policies regarding what goes in and what does not go into the main space, except for smasher articles... Which are articles about smashers, not smasher related items. Furthermore, you're arguing ad populum. I would ask you to stop, please. --Sky (t · c · w) 02:30, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

"Appeal to the masses". I would not consider less than 2% "the masses" or "the majority". In fact, I would consider it an extremely small minority. And you admit that the article's bias towards the pro-tiers/tournament players is the whole point of the article. An article of that nature does not belong in the main namespace. People would still have the "choice" as to how they use the information if it was moved to the Smasher namespace. Wikia is not here to advertise the SmashBoards community or these tournaments. Dtm142 01:20, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Ad populum means you're arguing for the unknown masses, which you cannot assert say so and so. Furthermore, I would think you should challenge your beliefs; there is currently an on wiki discussion on the matter of the next tier list, which only proves my point that people know what it is, and are willing to talk about it. Heck, maybe one of them stumbled onto the article...

Again, you have not addressed any of my points. If you would like to do so, feel free. As for "choice", people won't end up stumbling onto it if it's in the smasher namespace. Again, people stumbling into this article is not a bad thing, and is how wikis work. You had a point when the articles were on smashers, especially those which no-one had heard about nor cared about, but your point falters here. People know what this is. Again you bring up "NPOV", which I will again refer you to the 2nd to last and the last paragraphs of my previous dissertation. Feel free to actually address my points.

Last, but not least, the point of the article is not advertisement. It is about what is perceived to be the order of the characters in ability at a level at which not many people will ever achieve. Funny you should mention advertising; am I blind, or is there an advertisement above where I'm posting? --Sky (t · c · w) 03:47, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Peach Ranked 5th?

I don't think Peach should be anywhere near the top of the tier list. Most of her moves are weak, her floats are only good for horizontal recovery, and her down smash is highly overrated. She's definitely a low tier character in my opinion. Anyone else agree? -GalaxiaD, 5:14 PM, April 17, 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.253.174.246 (talk • contribs) 22:16, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

No. Thats just your opinion. I don't use Peach that much but I find her playing style really effective. Zmario 22:47, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps. Her Float Cancel may be an effective maneuver, but I just could never get good with Peach. I spent most of my time playing as Mario, given that he's a well-rounded character, but I may have been a little harsh on my criticisms. Sorry. I still think Peach should at least be high ranked in the mid tier though. - GalaxiaD, 10:50 PM, April 18, 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.253.174.246 (talk • contribs) 03:53, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Forums, plz. FyreNWater - (Talk • Contributions ) 05:07, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Possible Brawl Tier List

I've been doing a lot of research on this game and I'm considering working on a possible tier list over the weekend. I know it will take a lot of work, so before I waste any time on this, I'll need some opinions. Should I bother working on it? - GalaxiaD, 11:01 PM, April 18, 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.253.174.246 (talk • contribs) 04:04, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Way too soon, give it a few years. Also, discuss this in the existing Brawl Tier forum. FyreNWater - (Talk • Contributions ) 05:03, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Tier List for Brawl taken from Prima Guide

Well, this is what Prima think:

"Top" Tier

Marth: 9

"High" Tier

Diddy Kong: 8 Toon Link: 8 Wolf: 8 Captain Falcon: 8 Peach: 8 Snake: 8

"Middle" Tier

Falco: 7 Sheik: 7 Sonic: 7 Mario: 7 Jigglypuff: 7 Dedede: 7 Ness: 7 Link: 7 Lucario: 7 Lucas: 7 Pit: 7 Squirtle: 7 Ivysaur: 7 Charizard: 7 Zero Suit Samus: 7 Bowser: 7 (Seriously dude...)

"Low" Tier

Fox: 6 (What the Hell???) Ike: 6 Ganondorf: 6 Ice Cilmbers: 6 Samus: 6 R.O.B.: 6 Meta Knight: 6 Luigi: 6 Zelda: 6 Donkey Kong: 6 Mr. Game and Watch: 6

"Bottom" Tier

Pikachu: 5 Olimar: 5 Kirby: 5 Wario: 5 Yoshi: 5

Sorry for bad layout, but I'm new here. Discuss. Bolmedias14 09:27, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Its hard to beleive that only one character is Top Tier. I have the same strategy guide. There just rating the character based on skill. NOT ON ACTUAL GAMEPLAY! I hate tiers but from what I hear Meta Knight, Pit, Snake, Wolf and R.O.B. are the best.Zmario 09:39, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Maybe we could just start the tier list using number of posts on smashboards. While not accurate it will definitely give something for visitors to argue over which will lead to quicker resolution. Here is a list of characters by NUMBER OF THREADS. The second number is number of posts. This is almost certainly wrong as it includes speculation threads etc before the game came out have fun ;)

Pikmin & Olimar 509 11,153
Sonic 486 27,113
Ike 419 17,675
Snake 411 7,779
Lucas 357 7,432
King Dedede 345 8,412
Pokémon Trainer 339 8,658
Wolf 335 8,718
Toon Link 329 6,775
Meta Knight 303 6,655
Marth 292 6,655
Kirby 292 5,773
Lucario 280 8,402
Pit 266 5,601
Link 259 5,853
Zero Suit Samus 250 4,385
Wario 246 4,019
Fox 231 4,024
Zelda 231 8,990
Samus 227 3,676
Ice Climbers 221 3,288
Falco 212 3,470
Diddy Kong 207 8,664
Captain Falcon 202 3,542
Ness 198 5,004
Game & Watch 191 2,871
R.O.B. 175 3,116
Ganondorf 175 3,486
Pikachu 171 2,881
Mario 167 2,943
Peach 165 6,154
Bowser 162 3,830
Sheik 157 2,766
Luigi 149 3,016
Yoshi 149 3,285
Donkey Kong 110 2,572
Jigglypuff 103 1,810
68.80.116.215 11:00, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

This is MY opinion of a tier list:

Top Tier

1. Meta Knight 2. Pit 3. Lucas

High Tier

4. Marth 5. Fox 6. Sonic 7. Toon Link 8. Falco

Middle Tier

9. Pikachu 10. Sheik 11. Ike 12. Captain Falcon 13. Wolf 14. R.O.B. 15. Samus 16. Ness 17. Ivysaur 18. Link 19. Diddy Kong 20. Ice Climbers 21. Luigi 22. Snake 23. King Dedede 24. Lucario 25. Mario 26. Bowser 27. Zero Suit Samus

Low Tier

28. Zelda 29. Kirby 30. Charizard 31. Yoshi 32. Ganondorf 33. Donkey Kong 34. Wario

Bottom Tier

35. Jigglypuff 36. Peach 37. Olimar 38. Squirtle 39. Mr. Game & Watch

This tier list is completely opinionated. As such, I don't wish for people to take it seriously or post it. Thank you. - GalaxiaD 20:41, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Game & Watch at the bottom? WTF? He is way better than before! Just give it an opportunity (This list isn't clear, I will edit it soon)

Top Tier

1. Meta Knight 2. Captain Falcon 3. Lucas

High Tier

4. Marth 5. Fox 6. Toon Link 7. Peach 8. Sheik

Middle Tier

9. Mr. Game & Watch 10. Snake 11. Falco 12. Ike 13. Wolf 14. R.O.B. 15. Luigi 16. Ness 17. Ice Climbers 18. Mario 19. Lucario 20. Ice Climbers 21. Wario 22. Olimar 23. King Dedede 24. Pit 25. Zelda 26. Kirby 27. Sonic

Low Tier

28. Link 29. Pikachu 30. Squirtle 31. Ganondorf 32. Diddy Kong 33. Charizard 34. Ivysaur

Bottom Tier

35. Jigglypuff 36. Samus 37. Zero Suit Samus 38. Yoshi 39. Donkey Kong --Jigglypuff is God 16:23, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

When you said that the tier list wasn't clear, were you refering to mine or yours? You don't even have Pit up there, and Snake shouldn't be in the top tier. He's slow, has poor jumping ability, and a lot of his moves take time to charge. He was just fine in the middle tier. Also, Mr. Game & Watch should be in the bottom tier because he's still light, he's still laggy, and his moves don't pack that big of a punch. Overall, any character could beat Mr. Game & Watch. - GalaxiaD 21:40, 30 April 2008 (UTC) By clear i mean that my list isn't complete, that because there's no pit. Also, you must be seeing the Melee's Game & Watch, Brawl?s Game & Watch is WAY better, and is safe to say that is at least middle tier. Well, I will judge your tier list, because I'm surprised that Sonic is high tier, I mean, oh yeah Sonic is the fastest, but it take you for about an hour for do a KO, his attacks are very weak . Also, saying that Peach is bottom tier, it doesn't malke sense for me. (my opinion anyway) --Jigglypuff is God 01:24, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Tiers on character profiles for Brawl?

Why are there tier rankings on individual characters' profiles? There are no formal tier lists, and nothing close to having an "official" one out from the Back Room or anything. There's a ranking for every character in Brawl, and having no tier list to base that off of is a bit...weird. Am I missing out on something here? Storm92 05:17, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Sakurai and tiers

How is Sakurai even relevant to tiers? Why was this even worth mentioning?