Talk:Nerf

Seems reasonable. When the SSBB tier list comes out, there will defintely be changes and revises. ItemHazard 20:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC) ItemHazard

Are you sure about the whole "moves nerfed" thing? We're clearly talking about entire characters.

Please sign your comments. And saying an entire CHARACTER was nerfed would imply that said character was previously terribly unbalanced, which wasn't the case. In addition, some characters have had one move nerfed and another buffed, like Kirby.- Gargomon251 (talk) 21:51, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Yoshi?

Exactly how did he get nerfed in Brawl? --Posted by Pikamander2 (Talk) at 17:39, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

You need to read the section header. "Characters that got attacks nerfed." Then, read the section I linked you to, Yoshi_(SSBB)#Changes_from_Melee_to_Brawl. His smashes are weaker; Yoshi Bomb is weaker; Egg Toss got nerfed, even if it got buffed in other ways; Egg Roll was nerfed. Perhaps you should have discussed before reverting? --Shadowcrest 14:51, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

After I placed ^^that^^ comment, I waited several days, but nobody gave a reason. So I removed Yoshi from the list. When you reverted it, I didn't notice the link, which is why I said to give a good reason. I re-added Yoshi to the list, but I really think that we should list which attacks a character had nerfed, instead of just saying that their attacks got nerfed in general. --Posted by Pikamander2 (Talk) at 21:04, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I was far ruder than necessary above. I apologize; that was uncalled for.

I agree that the current section is far too broad, since I'm sure (not sure, but generally convinced) that most veteran characters will have had a move or something else nerfed from melee to brawl. However, I don't think listing each trait that was nerfed is the best option, because the page would get to be long and unweildy. But I can't think of any other conceivable method to do it. Suggestions? --Shadowcrest 21:31, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmm...delete!

Delete - This is a bit of a dubious article in the first place. Our focus should really be on how the characters play and not how well they play. Since so much is dependent on individual player styles and skill levels, not to mention that all the games play on completely different physics engines, you can't objectively say whether one move is "better" than it was. Granted, there are some obvious ones like Peach's down-smash that are indisputable, but I don't think there's any need for it to be captured in an article. --RJM ^Talk 20:14, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Delete - This is basically just a small tier list that anyone can edit. --Posted by Pikamander2 (Talk) at 21:04, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Nerfing/buffing strikes me to be somewhat akin to clones; something that's not official, somewhat left up to individual judgment, but nonetheless a definite topic of discussion in the community. Documenting that so-and-so's back air now does less damage and/or knockback is less subjective than, say, the tier list, so I don't think there's a problem with subjectivity. I believe this stuff has been researched to some degree, but I leave it an exercise to the reader to find the appropriate SWF threads. But even if the page does suggest something about a character being better or worse, it needn't be normative--that is, it can describe general sentiments in the community without authoritatively declaring them to be truth. (BTW, Randall, you probably should tack on a delete tag to the article if you're really nominating it.) --Kirby King 21:27, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Again, I think because you're dealing with two fundamentally different gaming platforms, the red flag of subjectivity is automatically raised. A character's "strength" is relative to the game in which they appear. You wouldn't describe Lucas (SSBB) as a clone of Ness (SSBM) in the same way that it's meaningless to say that Mario's back air is stronger in Brawl than it was in Melee because the conditions that affect the move's power are not equal. If a character's overall strength is being graded on uneven playing fields, I don't think objectivity is achievable. Oddly though, my own reasoning makes it perfectly okay to discuss how a clone character was nerfed within his own game (i.e. Luigi Cyclone > Mario Tornado) :^) --RJM ^Talk 21:41, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

That's a case for not taking things too literally, I guess, when it comes to things like how much damage a move does, etc. I would still say there's enough of a general sentiment that "nerfing" exists (and to some extent who it affects) that would at minimum warrant an article discussing what nerfing is/means, and probably (obvious) examples of characters/moves being nerfed. I don't even think it matters whether or not this would be considered subjective, because the article does not need to describe what is as much as it might describe what the community thinks is; it's the difference between tier list saying that "Meta Knight is better than Captain Falcon" and "The SBR says Meta Knight is better than Captain Falcon". It's certainly within the scope of SmashWiki to report on subjective issues, if the subjectivity can be objectively documented. :) --Kirby King 22:03, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Righto, makes sense to me. So shift the focus away from who got nerfed to what nerfed means, citing the obvious examples but leaving nothing subjectively questionable without reporting the source of the subjectivity. Objectively. :^) --RJM ^Talk 02:29, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Keep - Per the discussion below, the article should be kept, but should be cleaned up into less of a list of characters and more of an explanation about nerfed characters and some good examples. --RJM ^Talk 02:29, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Keep - wat is up with people and deleting? the info, no matter how useless, can always be called upon for later. i think this page is too vague: it needs more info. hit me back with why u wont it gone.

Keep - There's no real reason to get rid of this, as it is true. Cheezperson (talk) 02:31, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Huh?

How did Yoshi, Samus, and Ganon all get nerfed? - GalaxiaD (talk) 23:14, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Yoshi got nerfed like Kirby did in Melee, but Samus and Ganondorf are still very powerful and heavy. Come to think of it, Ganondorf's Up B is weaker, the Dark Choke doesn't really count, and he has a weaker Uaerial. Samus just has a weaker Ftilt and Neutral Air. Her other attacks are far stronger. Keep!!! Blue Ninjakoopa ^{Talk to me} 21:14, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I know we just voted to keep this article, but rather than exemplifying why the article was nominated for deletion in the first place, it'd be nice if you guys would read the discussion that ensued (specifically, the part about what the article should look like). You'll note that the discussion concluded that simply listing characters as "nerfed" without community (Smash community, not SmashWiki community) consensus or an explanation was bad. --Kirby King 22:30, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Yoshi (Second time)

There's an inconsistency between the Buffed and Nerfed pages, where Yoshi was buffed in a minor way from Melee to Brawl, but nerfed in a major way from Melee to Brawl. How does this happen? Friedbeef1 Argue 21:17, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Some IP moved Yoshi from minorly nerfed in Brawl to majorly nerfed. --Posted by Pikamander2 (Talk) at 23:17, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

But still, it wouldn't make sense to have a character buffed and nerfed at the same time. The way I see it, it should be that it evens out. Friedbeef1 Argue 23:54, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Specifics

It's great having a page which describes what "nerfed" is, but without further explanation and specific rationale for each character / move on the list, it is a useless list, and should be removed. Zixor (talk) 22:53, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Yoshi (third time)

He's nerfed. Deal with it. Link got buffed according to the SWF Link guide author, and Ganon is still very powerful although some of his moves are somewhat useless. LOL Blue Ninjakoopa 18:38, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Toon Link/ Young Link

Are they really the same characters? I mean, sure they are both clones of link, but is that enough? If you say yes, because they have the same move set, then wolf/falco/fox is the same, pichu/pikachu is the same, marth/roy is the same, and toon link/link/young link are the same.--Kill Maim (talk) 12:22, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Ganondorf's u-smash and u-tilt

Now you do have a point but they should still be included as they were weakened in Brawl. Fox's u-smash is often considered to be the best u-smash in Brawl but it was still weaker than it was in Melee. Therefore it is included and Ganondorf's u-smash should be as well. As for his u-tilt. it did get faster (if only slightly) and the vacuum effect makes it much easier to land, but it was weakened enough to still be mentioned on this page.

As for some exact numbers, I found these %s from the center of Pokemon Stadium on Bowser in both games. It is difficult to judge a difference of power between the two games, but these differences are large enough to be notable. As for his Melee u-smash, the first kick uncharged KOs at 86% while his Brawl uncharged sweetspotted u-smash KOs at 106%. As for the u-tilt, it KOs at 22% in Melee while KOing at 50% in Brawl if sweetspotted. Also, you're wrong about Ganondorf's sourspotted u-smash being stronger than Snake's u-tilt. The former KOs Bowser at 128% while the latter KOs him at 113%. Omega Tyrant 21:34, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

Marth

Did he get buffed or nerfed? Avengingbandit 00:34, 8 January 2012 (EST)

It's a mix of both, as while he gained some benefits, he lost some attributes. MegaTron1XD 00:37, 8 January 2012 (EST)

In the community, I believe it's generally agreed upon that Marth neither received an overall buff nor nerf; he's roughly at the same level as he was in Melee. --- ReiDemon, Author Extraordinaire, 01:03, 8 January 2012 (EST)

Captain Falcon

His air speed was reduced? Due to his slower falling speed, it seems like his air speed was increased. Smash Master (talk) 23:05, 18 January 2012 (EST)

Do you mean from SSB64 to Melee or from Melee to Brawl? In any case, Toomai can verify these things. Mr. Anontalk 00:27, 19 January 2012 (EST)

Just look at the air speed article. Omega Tyrant 02:59, 19 January 2012 (EST)

I saw it. Correct me if I'm wrong, 1.12 is faster than 1.18. Smash Master (talk) 10:01, 19 January 2012 (EST)

Assuming Brawl is on the same scale as Melee (as it seems), 1.18 is a larger number than 1.12. Omega Tyrant 10:09, 19 January 2012 (EST)

I know, so should the Brawl scale for C.F. be lower than Melee's? Smash Master (talk) 10:23, 19 January 2012 (EST)

Going by the straight numbers, Brawl Falcon has faster air speed than Melee's. Omega Tyrant 10:31, 19 January 2012 (EST)

So should I revert the Air speed was reduced slightly from nerf and put Air speed was improved in buff? Smash Master (talk) 10:44, 19 January 2012 (EST)

Yes, the numbers don't lie. Omega Tyrant 10:52, 19 January 2012 (EST)

No they do not, and done. Smash Master (talk) 10:57, 19 January 2012 (EST)

I guess I was wrong... THEAVENGINGBANDIT 21:36, 22 January 2012 (EST)

Fox

Fox's air speed in Melee isn't one of the slowest, it is the slowest. Smash Master (talk) 10:08, 20 January 2012 (EST)

No, Bowser, Sheik, Ganondorf, Kirby, Ice Climbers, and Luigi have slower air speeds. Omega Tyrant 12:55, 20 January 2012 (EST)

So, Luigi has the slowest air speed in Melee, like in SSB64. Smash Master (talk) 00:17, 21 January 2012 (EST)

Yay! I was right! THEAVENGINGBANDIT 21:36, 22 January 2012 (EST)

Sheik

All of Sheik's aerials are weakended in Brawl. Does Sheik's nair, bair, and uair still has KO power and cannot reliably KO under 150%? Luigi540 (talk) 20:19, 6 February 2012 (EST)

They still have some KO power, nair reaches terminal percentage at 144.04%, uair reaches at 154.93%, and bair reaches at 170.58%. Nair is the only one that can be expected to KO under 150%, and even then, heavies can still take a fresh nair above 150% and reasonably survive. Omega Tyrant 20:33, 6 February 2012 (EST)

Jigglypuff

OT, Jigglypuff's jump height in Melee from the ground IS lower than SSB64, and I got proof, "her jump was higher than Kirby's in SSB64, but in Melee, it is lower than Kirby's." Case closed. Smash Master 18:09, 26 March 2012 (EDT)

Its not really a notable difference. ..... The Autistic 18:22, 26 March 2012 (EDT)

How does that prove anything? In SSB64, each of her midair jumps have progressively decreased height, whereas in Melee, they all gain the same height. The initial jumping height isn't any lower. Learn some logic, and explain how Jigglypuff somehow has less overall jumping height, despite this.

Also throwing out a random statement, that isn't explained, is not sourced, and saying "case closed", makes you look like an ass. If you're talking about the initial jump height in regard to Kirby and Jiggly, your statement is wrong anyway, as seen on the tables on the jump article. Omega Tyrant 18:29, 26 March 2012 (EDT)

Also, Jigglypuff's jumps are the lowest in all three games so increasing or decreasing them in Melee won't change her position. ..... The Autistic 18:41, 26 March 2012 (EDT)

Explain, OK, in Dream Land, in SSB64, she can jump on the lower platforms, in Melee's Dream Land she can jump on them anymore. Smash Master 18:53, 26 March 2012 (EDT)

And the proof that stages and character models are the exact same size from N64 to Melee? Omega Tyrant 18:54, 26 March 2012 (EDT)

Mabye the stage is the same size, I don't know if the characters are. Smash Master 19:01, 26 March 2012 (EDT)

Then your measurement cannot be taken as valid. Omega Tyrant 19:16, 26 March 2012 (EDT)

While I'm looking into conversion ratios, it's currently a foolish idea to try and measure character physics between those two games by using past stages. The measurement system of SSB64 is just so different than the SSBM/SSBB one. Toomai Glittershine The Keymaster 19:36, 26 March 2012 (EDT)

Jigglypuff (SSB)

Can someone verify that it has the slowest dash speed?--Bandit 09:51, 28 June 2012 (EDT)

Dash rankings, although that's consistent running speed, not sure if you're referring to initial dash. Smoreking (talk) 16:55, 28 June 2012 (EDT)

Split

Oppose This page shows nerfs for every game, which in my opinion, is better than having a page that only shows nerfs for one game. Bandit 11:12, 1 September 2012 (EDT)

Support When SSB4 comes out, this page will increase in size massively, and become quite unwieldy to read. Plus it would be better organised than one massive page listing every buff in every game. Omega Tyrant 15:25, 1 September 2012 (EDT)

Support The page is over 24,000 bytes right now, it would radically grow. Toast ltimatum 17:00, 1 September 2012 (EDT)

Support Per OT and Toast. ChuckNorris 17:05, 1 September 2012 (EDT)

Strong support Keep in mind that the page should just about double when SSB4 comes out, assuming all characters have at least one minor nerf (Brawl has about as many characters as Melee and SSB 64 combined). Mr. Anontalk 20:05, 1 September 2012 (EDT)

Support Per Omega and Anon. JamesHeartless 20:25, 1 September 2012 (EDT)

Strong support I can't even amagine how big the page will be when the nerfs in SSB4 are discussed in the page, which is already big. Smash Master 15:53, 14 September 2012 (EDT)

Ultimate Section Edits

I have edited the Ultimate section to be more neutral in tone and less verbose generally. I'm unsure if the Cleanup section is still needed or not, but I hope this edit is in the right direction. --Pacack (talk) 15:59, October 29, 2019 (EDT)