Talk:Four Horsemen

Merge

My initial plan was to have a section in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate in competitive play that discussed the Four Horsemen and then redirect the name to the section, since I was hesitant that the "Four Horsemen" should get their own page since their dominance had only started recently (and at the time of writing this, has basically ended just as fast). Unfortunately, I am currently rewriting the entire page, and burnout/lack of interest in the rewrite had left it incomplete when this page was first created, so I wasn't able to move all the information on this page into the competitive play page. As such, I support merging this, and I'll try to see if I can get my rewrite done before it passes/goes through. CookiesCreme 18:05, March 13, 2024 (EDT)

As the one that added the tag, I fully support the merge. I believe recency bias was a major factor as to why this page was created in the first place, but we can clearly see that things are not holding up well in 2024 so far. While I certainly see merit in listing info about their dominance in 2023 on Super Smash Bros. Ultimate history in competitive play, I don't think it's necessary to have an entire page for a group whose "era" lasted less than a quarter of The Five Gods era. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 20:14, March 13, 2024 (EDT)

My opinion will depend on how Collision 2024 and Battle of BC 6 goes. If Sparg0/Sonix don't win both of those tournaments, I think we can safely say the era is long over and we can merge. But right now, I think we should wait and see. We don't want to merge it and only consider it a 2023 era, only for them to start all winning again. Remember, it took a while for the "Four Horsemen" to start winning everything in the first place, I'd say it really started around Smash Ultimate Summit 6/MAJOR UPSET time, and Miya was underperforming at the very start of 2023 too.--Hydreigonfan01 (talk) 12:35, March 15, 2024 (EDT)

I don't really see how them winning Collision or Battle of BC would really change my opinions in all honesty. All four are top players who can win majors, so they are bound to win at least one between now and the end of the season.

I listed my issues with the Four Horsemen out on the Discord but I'll readd them here for those not in our server

1. There has only been 4 tournaments with all of them in attendance, and out of those 4 only one of them had them as placing 1-4 or close to it (WTT) while the other three had at least one of them underperform severely.
2. Most of the majors during their period were the Japanese events that acola and Miya can easily farm. Their skill level is just an entire level above most other Japanese players and with Japan themselves being the central hub of Smash in 2023, there are going to be more majors there, and thus more majors for acola and Miya to win.
3. Even in NA, Leo was on a big slump, Tweek was less consistent, and Light was having personal issues and his own little slump. Those are the three that have historically been able to compete against Sonix and/or Sparg0 rather consistently, and as if they are either eliminated earlier in bracket or aren't there, it gives Sonix and Sparg0 a better chance at making to WF against each other, and by then it's a toss-up between the two.
4. I personally think a large portion of why they are top 4 is because how their performances somehow affect the brackets. acola and Miya are really consistent compared to the rest of the playerbase but they struggle against Sonix and Sparg0, whilst Sonix and Sparg0 are rather inconsistent with the rest of the playerbase but if they make it to acola and Miya they tend to win. It's less of a dominance between 4 players and more so just the strengths of four different players benefiting all of them.

Basically, I don't think the Four Horsemen are necessarily an "era" like the Five Gods that completely shaped the metagame, but more so just a period where the metagame aligned itself perfectly for four players to specifically flourish well. Maybe it is too early to judge whether the era has concluded, but on the other hand it was too early for the Four Horsemen to have a page in the first place, especially if their dominance at that point was only less than a year and as such the most that could have been added to the page was their statistics for the 2023 season... which will become somewhat outdated pretty soon enough, and it especially seems like the Four Horsemen is ending as soon as the name was first coined. It should be reiterated that we aren't removing the page; we are simply merging it with the competitive history page for Ultimate. CookiesCreme 13:05, March 15, 2024 (EDT)

Support the merge; I was sceptical when it was made and admittedly should have pushed more at that time - Plague von Karma 06:33, March 17, 2024 (EDT)

Fine, I'll support the merge. I made the page because one user started adding in the term to the players pages and gave it a redlink, so I thought it would be best to fill out the redlink by making a page.--Hydreigonfan01 (talk) 12:21, March 18, 2024 (EDT)

Yeah that was my fault; as I explained earlier I meant for the redlinks to redirect to Super Smash Bros. Ultimate in competitive play after I rewrote the page, but I never finished the rewrite. CookiesCreme 12:34, March 18, 2024 (EDT)

Weak Support. I've detailed this in discord but my objections are twofold. First, it's early in the season so it's possible that the 4 horseman establish themselves as dominant by seasons end. Of course, the article can be recreated when it's deemed that it makes sense it's current form. The second reason is that this was an adopted term by the smash community. Given it had community adoption I think it meets requirements for notability. In which case, the question becomes whether or not their is enough unique information to justify the page. In it's current form, I think that is a no. But I do see ways in which someone could expand and alter the article. So I personally think it's possible for the article to justifiably exist if someone decides to put that level of effort into it. However, as of now, and in its current form, the article would be best merged. Wiifitkid (talk) 12:39, March 18, 2024 (EDT)

Regarding this, considering the Five Gods have a page of their own, I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of this page existing. My main concern is scale - The Five Gods dominated Melee for years, to the point of receiving a documentary that revolutionised the Melee community, and receiving constant media attention. The Four Horsemen don't appear to have that, but the year-long dominance is definitely impressive. That said, it's plausible that the problem is our initial standard is the Five Gods of all things, so talks of proper standards is warranted. - Plague von Karma 19:43, April 23, 2024 (EDT)