Talk:Mega Evolution (Charizard)

Merge

Hilarious that I was also the one to suggest this idea years ago.

Anyways, in accordance with this, in which it was agreed upon that special moves are to be an exception to the "fan term takes precedence over official name" rule we go by, I'm repurposing the move proposal that was put up and turning it into a merge proposal instead, since Mega Evolution can absolutely be covered on one page, in spite of any differences between how the moves function; we've seen it time and time and time and time and time again, so I don't see why this (or this, for that matter) should be any different.

However, if we truly believe that these pages should be split, then I will simultaneously vouch for all of the given examples to be split themselves (barring Echoes) for consistency's sake.

Talk it out here. Aidan, the Springing Rurouni 18:55, April 6, 2021 (EDT)

Merge all the way. Having watched this proposal intently almost ever since I first joined the wiki, and between how much I've vouched for as much "official-ness" as possible in the past in addition to the points Aidan just made, I've got nothing new to add. Sincerely, Samuel the NEW AMIIBO TRAINER!!! 19:23, April 6, 2021 (EDT)

If we end up leaving these pages separate, I must fervently beg that we not split those other pages you mentioned. As others here have pointed out, this is an interesting case in which two identically-named moves have extremely different functionalities in-game; if these two are not merged, I ask that these remain the only exceptions. Sincerely, Samuel the NEW AMIIBO TRAINER!!! 20:05, April 6, 2021 (EDT)

Severely oppose. The Final Smashes are mechanically wholly dissimilar and the only thing they have in common is a loose basis in the same mechanic in their home series. There's no reason to cover them together when they functionally have nothing in common. Miles (talk) 19:29, April 6, 2021 (EDT)

Addendum: at the most literal, if we were to insist that the names be official, the only acceptable implementation of that in my book would be "Mega Evolution (Charizard)" and "Mega Evolution (Lucario)" being separate pages. Miles (talk) 19:34, April 6, 2021 (EDT)

I still fail to see how that qualifies for a split, while Critical Hit gets left alone. The other ones I gave, I can live with, but I'd just prefer this be an all-or-nothing type of deal. Aidan, the Springing Rurouni 20:08, April 6, 2021 (EDT)

Oppose I agree with Miles here, there is no reason to merge moves that are completely different from each other in every way, and you don't even have the "same name" excuse when they're called 'Mega [Pokemon's name]". It goes completely against the precedent we've set elsewhere, and this case is not remotely similar to that of Landmaster and Critical Hit, there's no real logical reason here for merging such different content together. Omega Tyrant 19:53, April 6, 2021 (EDT)

Officially, they're called "Mega Evolution"; this page, much like Mega Lucario, has been under a fan name this entire time. Aidan, the Springing Rurouni 19:58, April 6, 2021 (EDT)

Then in the case, if you really want to use the official name (though Mega Charizard X and Mega Lucario works just fine), then you follow Miles' idea, which we already did in the precedent set by Blaster (where moves with the same official name but very different properties/functions led to them being separated). Omega Tyrant 20:08, April 6, 2021 (EDT)

As I said, the proposal I linked to earlier reached consensus on special moves both using their most recent names and being an exception to the "fan names override official names if they're more popular" rule we have. I was always under the impression that those were separated due to the different custom moves, but I guess that distinction makes more sense in this context. Aidan, the Springing Rurouni 20:22, April 6, 2021 (EDT)

Wolf's was separated long before customs were known to be a thing (and he wasn't in 4 anyway so he never got any customs), and the discussion for splitting Falco's mentions nothing about custom moves. Omega Tyrant 20:29, April 6, 2021 (EDT)

Guess I completely missed that discussion, or forgot to respond to it. I wouldn't have assumed Wolf's got split because of customs, but rather because of Fox's and Falco's getting split. Either way, I guess it doesn't really matter now. Aidan, the Springing Rurouni 20:37, April 6, 2021 (EDT)

Oppose though I like Miles' idea. Charizard's is more similar to Super Dragon in that it has a restricted moveset; Lucario's is more similar to Wario-Man where it keeps its moveset but it becomes stronger. The Landmasters are near-carbon copies with some parameters tweaked, same with the Starstorms. Counters are the same except maybe duration and effect. Zero Lasers are just recolors. Roy's Critical Hit is different but not as different as the Mega Evolutions. The Blasters all have separate pages with the characters in brackets despite being even more similar than the Mega Evolutions. --CanvasK (talk) 19:59, April 6, 2021 (EDT)

Oppose. I agree with Aidan above that nearly or entirely-identical moves should be merged. These two are entirely different moves. I also believe they should be moved to "Mega Evolution (Charizard)" and "Mega Evolution" (Lucario). Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Gamer (talk) 22:03, April 6, 2021 (EDT)

Oppose, with the same arguments as above. In fact, I do think the Zero Lasers should also be split, since they also do function very differently, in spite of the superficial aesthetic similarity; one is an aim and shoot attack from the background while the other is a stage-sweeping beam shot while Samus stays on the stage. But that's perhaps a discussion better left for the Zero Laser talk page. --Rdrfc (talk) 03:43, April 7, 2021 (EDT)

Rename instead of merge Mega Lucario and Mega Charizard are different in every way except the name. If anything, Zero Laser and Critical Hit should be split instead of being used as an argument to merge these two. 72.219.72.215 02:02, April 8, 2021 (EDT)

Oppose (perfer move) I don't really have much to say that hasn't already been said, I perfer the pervious move suggestion - Sorrylinkicantgivegredit (talk) 20:39, April 9, 2021 (EDT)

Oppose (Rename instead of Merge) It should separate pages because they only share their names in common. Thegameandwatch The Nerd 14:11, April 10, 2021 (EDT)

Oppose per Miles and Omega Tyrant. If the names are really such a concern, call them "Mega Evolution (Pokemon name)". Even then, the current names feel much better, at least to me. The proposal draws a completely false equivalence between these moves and the other Final Smashes in that these aren't the same moves, have never been linked as such, and never will be. --Plague von Karma 04:14, May 16, 2021 (EDT)

Oppose I agree with Miles. In order for Final Smashes to merge, they must be similar in not only name, but also in function. Daniel1204 (talk page) 22:50, May 29, 2021 (EDT)

Oppose Like Miles said, merging final smash pages that are completely different is a bad idea. These two final smashes have nothing in common aside from their name and the mechanic of being mega evolutions. By extension, I also oppose moving the pages to "Mega Evolution ([Pokémon name])", which I'll get more into detail if a discussion does open up to rename them like many users are suggesting. Omegα Toαd, the Toαd Wαrrior. (I'm the best!) 07:22, May 30, 2021 (EDT)

Move

Since opposition to merging so far has been clear and near unanimous, I am going to start the discussion for moving now. Personally, I support moving the page to Mega Evolution (Charizard). --Rdrfc (talk) 16:31, May 31, 2021 (EDT)

Support. I’ve always preferred and pushed for official terminology when it comes to move names. This one sits in the same camp as the rest of them. Black Vulpine of the 🦊Furry Nation🐺. Furries make the internets go! :3 17:30, May 31, 2021 (EDT)

Slight oppose: While yes, Smash itself uses "Mega Evolution", I see no problem with leaving it as Mega Charizard X (and Mega Lucario) as that is still the official names for these final smashes. I don't see the point of going through the hassle of renaming these other than to match the name used in Smash. In Charizard's case, it makes it more clear which form it is since he has 2 forms. The only real reason to move this is if we're absolutely insistent on using the name Smash does, otherwise there's no harm in leaving this the way it is. Omegα Toαd, the Toαd Wαrrior. (I'm the best!) 23:04, May 31, 2021 (EDT)

Support. Unofficial terms should purely be for etymology that would be hard to understand if the official term was used. This is neither, so yes, both this and the other mega evolution page should be renamed. 72.219.72.215 21:57, June 21, 2021 (EDT)