Talk:Cloud (SSB4)

Cloud's Limit Break Bar.

It needs a picture for the charge. I may have a few. Also, The limit break lowers the kill percent for the Omnislash.PacmanLP (talk) 03:11, 19 December 2015 (EST)

It takes about 6 seconds to get it fully charged —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lilwake1 (talk • contribs) 21:02, 4 July 2017

Limit Breaker quote

Thanks to whoever added the up taunt, I've listened to the Limit Breaker line he says when he charges his Limit Breaker to the max, I'm pretty sure he says 限界を超える (genkai wo koeru) which translates to like "(I) exceed the limit" which would make sense, so if anyone could add that, feel free to. JacobARF (talk) 16:38, 17 November 2015 (CET)

Up taunt quote

Since the page is protected I can't edit it, but doesn't he say "興味ないね" (Not interested, huh?/right?)? If so, would be nice if someone could add it. JacobARF (talk) 20:24, 16 November 2015 (CET)

Let's clear the air

Okay, whoa. This is big. I thought Ryu was groundbreaking enough, but then this comes along. Trying to contain hype. 15DollarsWentSouth (talk) 17:54, 12 November 2015 (EST)

I know this is hype, but SW:TALK. Nyargleblargle (Talk | Contribs) 17:54, 12 November 2015 (EST)

Please refer to SW:TALK. As exciting as the news may be, talk pages are for improving the article, not idle chatter. Berrenta (talk) 17:55, 12 November 2015 (EST)

Alright, real talk now. Anyone else hear unique hitsounds from Cloud's attacks? Because I did. If that's the case, should we elaborate on that somewhere down the road? 15DollarsWentSouth (talk) 18:22, 12 November 2015 (EST)

Could be, but it's not 100% sure, and other attacks do have unique effect sounds. Nyargleblargle (Talk | Contribs) 18:28, 12 November 2015 (EST)

Attacks

The page currently says that Omnislash's name is "not confirmed", but there's an obvious box at the top of the screen reading "Omnislash" in the trailer. I think that's confirmation enough. Also, while these aren't officially confirmed by name yet, Cloud is seen using moves whose PS1 FF7 names are Blade Beam and Cross Slash, and while this one is far more speculative than the others, I believe his Up-B is supposed to be Climhazzard. --131.107.147.30 19:15, 12 November 2015 (EST)

Feel free to note the similarities to existing FF7 moves, but don't claim the move names as Smash-official until we have proof of that. Miles (talk) 19:17, 12 November 2015 (EST)

Um, I can't edit the page. That's why I put it here. (I still say "Omnislash" in that red box should be confirmation enough.) --131.107.147.30 19:21, 12 November 2015 (EST)

It's protected from unregistered users and users without 10 or more edits to prevent false info from being added. Is the current wording good enough? Nyargleblargle (Talk | Contribs) 19:26, 12 November 2015 (EST)

I can edit it. At least we have a move to say that it resembles. Thanks, IP. DekZek 19:28, 12 November 2015 (EST)

Which is Blade Beam, and which is Cross Slash? I need to know. Thanks. DekZek 19:32, 12 November 2015 (EST)

Neither is listed on the page right now, but they're in the trailer. Blade Beam is what it sounds like: a big beam of green energy that flies out from Cloud's sword (1:39 in the trailer). Cross Slash is the move where he creates some kanji in the air in front of him with several slashes (1:41). Compare with this video. --131.107.147.30 19:40, 12 November 2015 (EST)

Just on point with Cross-Slash, the kanji (凶) is actually part of the Japanese name for the move 凶斬り (Kyōgiri), which pretty much cements it as that move. (Lest we get its localized name of Slayer...) 114.198.1.74 21:24, 12 November 2015 (EST)

Cloud's final smash is currently listed as resembling Robin's "pair up", but I think having Ike as the target was a nod to the possible, if not merely aesthetic, similarity to Ike's own final smash, "Great Aether". Festivefish (talk) 14:48, 13 November 2015 (EST)

The note was changed since it had greater horizontal range akin to Pair Up, as opposed to Great Aether which can only hit if the opponent is right in front of Ike. That said, there's a bunch of similar Final Smashes (see also Secret Ninja Attack and Omega Blitz), so there's not really just one valid comparison. Miles (talk) 14:53, 13 November 2015 (EST)

Head icon

I did my best to make a head icon for Cloud, but my computer's being a dick; that being said, I can upload it tomorrow. Will this be alright? Aidan, the Wandering Space Warrior 19:36, 12 November 2015 (EST)

Yep. Nyargleblargle (Talk | Contribs) 19:41, 12 November 2015 (EST)

So, a website called Smash Bros Miiverse also made an icon. Can we use that temporarily? Nyargleblargle (Talk | Contribs) 07:43, 13 November 2015 (EST)

I'm familiar with the site. I'd have to see it first. Aidan, the Wandering Space Warrior 07:46, 13 November 2015 (EST)

Wait, I see it.

Yea, go ahead and use that, that's a much higher quality than anything I can make. :P Aidan, the Wandering Space Warrior 07:49, 13 November 2015 (EST)

Wikia

Wikia cross-links are acceptable in situations of character-based universes with no NIWA wiki to link to, as seen in our linking regarding Xenoblade, Mega Man, Street Fighter, etc. Miles (talk) 19:45, 12 November 2015 (EST)

Official Screenshots (And Hi-Res Render)

Gematsu has Screenshots for Cloud and Midgar, along with a high resolution render (though with green background): http://gematsu.com/gallery/super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/november-12-2015/ 67.173.10.221 20:19, 12 November 2015 (EST)

Thanks! Nyargleblargle (Talk | Contribs) 20:20, 12 November 2015 (EST)

Should we make Move pages?

We have a relatively clear idea of what the moves potential names would be. If they end up being innacurate, we can just move them. Should I make these pages? Cross-Slash, Omnislash, Climhazzard, Blade Beam, Braver, and Limits. If anything, we can get a head start on the origin sections. What should we do? DekZek 23:20, 12 November 2015 (EST)

I wouldn't be opposed, but the problem is we don't know in what way these moves will be used. I'd honestly wait until we get further info. Disaster Flare (talk) 23:21, 12 November 2015 (EST)

Like I said, we can mostly make these pages to get the origin sections done before the next traffic flood, when they release him. DekZek 23:23, 12 November 2015 (EST)

If you want to work on them, keep it as a draft in your userspace until we have clear confirmation of what's what. Miles (talk) 23:31, 12 November 2015 (EST)

Trivia

Maybe I'm wrong, but wouldn't the end with the chocobos on Gaur Plain more likely be a reference to the Chocobo Farm from VII located in the grasslands outside Midgar? Cloud running off with Wario's bike also seems like a nod to the Hardy-Daytona, but probably not worth a trivia entry even if so. 69.47.149.35 05:36, 13 November 2015 (EST)

Sounds very interesting nonetheless. i'll toss it in for you. INoMed ^{(Talk • Contribs)} 05:51, 13 November 2015 (EST)

Voice actor

Is there any information on who is protraying Cloud in his reveal trailer? I'm not too familiar with Final Fantasy VII; does he have a consistent voice actor in Japan? It wouldn't hurt to perhaps contact him to see if he reprised his role.--Nintendo101 (talk) 11:01, 13 November 2015 (EST)

I'm taking Behind the Voice Actors at their word that it's indeed his consistent Japanese VA. Miles (talk) 11:07, 13 November 2015 (EST)

I'm actually surprised his trailer was only done in Japanese, as he does have an English VA as well. Aidan, the Wandering Space Warrior 11:08, 13 November 2015 (EST)

It is a bit odd. My personal theory is that he's releasing after the December news presentation, and that the dubbing wasn't ready in time for yesterday's Direct but they wanted to show the trailer anyway. Nevertheless, we'll have to wait and see. Miles (talk) 11:35, 13 November 2015 (EST)

Notably, he isn't up on the site yet; perhaps, once he is, there will be a version with his English VA. That aside, I'm one who supports that theory as well (and I also personally believe they'll release a certain heavily requested character), but, like you said, we'll have to wait and see. Aidan, the Wandering Space Warrior 11:38, 13 November 2015 (EST)

Picture of Cloud without Green Background

File:Cloud.png.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Crowbars (talk • contribs) {{{2}}}

Please sign your comments, and new discussions are at the bottom of the page. For the image, we are using the official one. We have a reverted revision of that with transparency, which is preferred if we had to use transparency, which we don't. DekZek 17:21, 13 November 2015 (EST)

Zelda clearly portrays...

This line above is in a trivia point. I feel like this is subjective and wish to remove it, but because it's protected, I can't. Can someone who can edit the page please fix this? 98.157.202.185 14:23, 14 November 2015 (EST)

Yeah Aardvarkian (Talk • Contributions) 14:33, 14 November 2015 (EST)

Official render, just transparent

I have the High Quality official render for Cloud, albeit with transparency. Shouldn't we upload it? https://www.dropbox.com/s/cnx3iydw3q613eq/CloudRenderFullSize.png?dl=0 --Wolfy76700 (talk) 15:35, 14 November 2015 (EST)

No, as we have a policy against using edited images in the mainspace like that. See SW:IMAGE. Miles (talk) 15:38, 14 November 2015 (EST)

His Final Smash

Would it be alright to make his final smash in the info box the Omnislash, because it is painfully apparent that that's what it is in the trailer... (Alex95 (talk) 20:42, 15 November 2015 (EST))

Of course, there was a petty argument about it but there's no problem either way. Aardvarkian (Talk • Contributions) 21:06, 15 November 2015 (EST)

Then again...it's protected, so you can't change it. Ahahahahahaha I can't believe they went that far I'm not surprised they went that far Aardvarkian (Talk • Contributions) 22:23, 15 November 2015 (EST)

It's also worth noting that when Cloud charges forward he doesn't stop at the edge of a platform or stage like marth's critical hit does

Cloud's moveset

Should I? Or too much speculation? Drill Blaster Mark 2 (talk) 14:21, 17 November 2015 (EST)

Only if it's incredibly obvious such as the dash attack, smash attacks and down air.

Some of the other moves could possibly be different except for the ones i specified. Thesupernintendokid (talk) 18:51, 17 November 2015 (EST)

Jab 1=2.5% Jab 3=4.5%

Possible sidequest reference?

I wasn't sure about this scene, but can someone who is knowledgeable about Final Fantasy 7 verify if the scene in Cloud's reveal trailer where "on the Town and City stage, Cloud hits a balloon that contains cake, and the cake drops towards Villager" is a reference to a sidequest (my inquiry was spurred by this Smashboards post)? Thanks in advance. Fenyx4 (talk) 13:19, 18 November 2015 (EST)

Can anyone confirm whether this is legitimate?

Evidently, Cloud assets have begun leaking. Nyargleblargle (Contribs) 07:07, 15 December 2015 (EST)

If it's a fake, it's a really frikin' good one. Serpent King 07:10, 15 December 2015 (EST)

Cloud's moveset.

I don't know if I'm allowed to do this, but I'm placing little tips I found out about Cloud's moveset here just in case someone sets up his moveset table.

• Down throw: It sends opponents at a weird angle behind him (sorta of like Wario's down throw) and the only move that combo off of it that I know so far is his forward tilt.
• Forward aerial: It seems like the bottom of his forward air can meteor smash.
• Down aerial: Has a surprisingly long duration, and it seems like it can meteor smash and any time.
• Up aerial: Like his down aerial, it has a surprisingly long duration.
• Forward smash: Very powerful, but it seems to have a lot of lag.
• Climhazzard: Has more horizontal recovery when used with the Limit Break activated.

HawkSoulBacon, your one true love :) (talk) 20:42, 15 December 2015 (EST)

Attributes

Some things that might be added into the attributes section, from basic playtesting:

• Very low short hop and very high jumps (almost as high as Falco).
• Poor recovery, especially horizontally - excluding Limit Break Climhazzard.
• Okay combo and good edgeguarding potential.

b2jammer (talk) 21:17, 15 December 2015 (EST)

Trivia Point-Canonical Appearances

I had recently added a small tidbit to the trivia point in question; here's the original version-"Cloud is the first character in the Super Smash Bros. series to not have a canonical appearance from his respective mainline series on a Nintendo console."

Now here's what I added-"He is also the only character in SSB4 with this distinction." As there hasn't even been a confirmation nor denial for a fifth Smash Bros. installment, I felt it was necessary to add, but two users (one of which who was rather rude about the idea) have both undone it and possibly violated SW:1RV in the process, explaining that it is redundant. I was trying to explain how Cloud is the only character in Super Smash Bros. 4 that didn't make any canonical appearances in Final Fantasy games that were released on Nintendo platforms, and not just in the entire Super Smash Bros. series.

Furthermore, another reason I added this was because so far, Nintendo or Masahiro Sakurai hasn't confirmed nor denied that Super Smash Bros. 4 would be the last in the series (even though Sakurai hinted it would be his last work in the franchise, but that statement's sort of ambiguous if you ask me).

So, the big question-do we include it or remove it entirely? 15DollarsWentSouth 00:57, 17 December 2015 (EST)

It's an ambiguous and questionably worthwhile piece of trivia to begin with, I think, especially given that what constitutes "canonical" is questionable for some series. Miles (talk) 01:07, 17 December 2015 (EST)

Cloud's the first and only character in the Smash series that doesn't have a canonical/mainline appearance on a Nintendo console. So you could just combine first and only Papayazzi (talk) 01:17, 17 December 2015 (EST)

Also, saying something about the entire series implies the entire series so far. You don't have to add anything after that unless something in the future pops up that will contradict that statement. Example, I can state this true statement: Of all my parents children, I'm the only boy in my family. Then say mom gives birth to a boy. Well, I can't say I'm the only boy anymore. I can say I'm the first boy, or the oldest boy. See that? Papayazzi (talk) 01:21, 17 December 2015 (EST)

I personally agree with Miles. There is no real reason to have the point. Serpent King 01:22, 17 December 2015 (EST)

It's borderline, there's very little reason to have it, but it'd be better if it were "mainline" instead of "canonical." Mainline, as in FF with numbers, right? Kingdom Hearts, Theatrhythm, and Explorers are not mainline. Papayazzi (talk) 01:27, 17 December 2015 (EST)

That's perfectly fair, and I see where everyone's coming from. Maybe it wasn't such a good idea in hindsight, though... 15DollarsWentSouth 01:31, 17 December 2015 (EST)

Cloudcide

The second hit of Cloud's up-B can be used as a suicide attack, but only if it spikes, and on last stock Cloud will almost always lose. However, a certain part of Cloud's blade can cause a Sudden Death, but if you use it from too high up the enemy can escape before Cloud dies.

I am anonymous, btw.

Well, first thing to note, it'd be Cloudcide, not Cloudside, if one were to do the portmanteau correctly. The other thing being, it's not a command grab (like Wario's Chomp or Bowser's Flying Slam) that can safely be pulled off, so the term probably wouldn't catch on in the Smash 4 community anyway. Not to mention he's only been out for almost 2 days. 15DollarsWentSouth 08:18, 17 December 2015 (EST)

This is actually already on the Sacrificial KO page, complete with "Cloudcide" moniker. I'm a little iffy on it, but there were already similar entries for Ike and Mii Brawler... though no mention of Final Cutter, oddly. So I dunno, I'm neutral on this. By the way, you can and should still sign your comments without an account. Zyrac(talk•contribs) 08:33, 17 December 2015 (EST)

Okay, just fixed the title. Also, I didn't think signatures would work without an account. Sorry about that. I'll try to remember to do sigs from now on. Anyway, I didn't know there was a Sacrificial KO page, but if I did I would have looked there first. Thanks for telling me about it. Anyway, looks like Cloudciding could become an official competitive (and possibly disrespecting) tech, but I kind of feel like it should be included on this page as well, but hey, I'm not one of the guys running this site. 64.250.50.60 09:42, 17 December 2015 (EST)

SSB4 Wii U taunt screenshots

I see the page is protected, if someone could add these shots I took over the current 3DS images that'd be great. Spinny (talk) 07:46, 17 December 2015 (EST)

Done. Thanks for the pics. Zyrac(talk•contribs) 07:52, 17 December 2015 (EST)

Why was my tips trivia removed?

I don't think he has any tips. (Damn it, I forgot to sign again! Why can't this be automatic?) Unowninator (talk) 13:36, 27 December 2015 (EST)

Cuz you don't think it be like it is, but it do. Saw tips for him and Midgar while playing, so you're mistaken. MegaTron1XD 17:56, 27 December 2015 (EST)

There are? Because I haven't seen any, and the lists of tips don't have any.Unowninator (talk) 18:52, 27 December 2015 (EST)

If you have the DLC, you should see them. The list of tips we have is outdated, so it isn't the best source of information right now.

Also, something something use : when responding. Please see the coding in this discussion to further understand this coding shenanigan if necessary. MegaTron1XD 00:50, 28 December 2015 (EST)

Silent Cloud

I've had an incident where Cloud wouldn't play sounds correctly when hitting opponents with some of his attacks. Too bad my forgetfulness caused me to not save the replay so I could later try to upload it.

Yin10Dou (talk) 23:54, 2 January 2016 (EST)

Cloud's Alternate KO Line

Cloud has this rare KO line where he utters something silently in Japanese. Does anyone know what exactly he says? Sounds something like "Misata" although I have no idea if that is even right. Archrelico (talk) 22:18, 13 February 2016 (EST)

Bumping. Archrelico (talk) 06:25, 4 March 2016 (EST)

If I remeber correctly, he's saying "I've made a mistake" in Japanese. So it kinda means what it sounds like.WolfBloodSpam (talk) 07:00, 4 March 2016 (EST)

Could I have the kanji so I can put it in the trivia? Archrelico (talk) 07:31, 4 March 2016 (EST)

The kanji says "Kyo", meaning "curse" or "misfortune". WolfBloodSpam (talk) 10:36, 5 March 2016 (EST)

Cloud's description on his approach is outdated

As the article reads, Cloud is very strong in doubles play, more so than his singles results. This is evident with pretty much every winning team for doubles in major tournaments having a Cloud. In fact, his strengths do not transfer over to his singles plays, drastically so. So to say that he is "one of the most effective characters at spacing, approaching, and zoning" is a stretch. We can all agree with spacing and zoning because that's fundamental for his character archetype, but "approaching"?

His approach is mediocre at best. In order for Cloud to pressure he has to be in the air and attack, and this strategy can only go so far when eventually Cloud has to land. Since his ground game is a bit trash he can't pressure that well as we all though he could. The fact that Cloud's aerial moves initiate from behind counteracts his long range, power, and speed. Cloud is much better at walling out opponents, a plan that works remarkably well in doubles but doesn't fare well in singles. Top players' voices and results have discredited the idea Cloud is very good at approaching. —S+ Tier (List) | 00:45, 30 April 2017 (EDT)

Anyone is free to rewrite a character's article to update how their playstyle is viewed over time, so maybe you could enhance the page by adding the points you mentioned and removing excessively shining opinions? For example I've already done so much for other articles... (but I won't list them.) My issue is I play mostly Shulk and Mac, but don't play a lot of Cloud, so my views might make a rewrite inaccurate in ways. Archrelico (talk) 06:05, 30 April 2017 (EDT)

I don't play Cloud myself because he's the competitive version of 4Glory Falcon but that's a weakness I've been hearing around lately (though, based on my opinion, my experiences tell me if you perfect shield the predictable F-air from Cloud he has lost neutral). I'm posting this here because it is still very established his approach is very good, when in reality it's just below average, and I'm trying to get some backing here in case someone reverts changes. —S+ Tier (List) | 20:05, 30 April 2017 (EDT)

Trust me I'm also tired of seeing all these damn Clouds I'm unsure, but I doubt it is a bad idea to mention what you have (aerials start from behind, below-average ground moveset). I agree on the point where Cloud has a "meh" neutral game, mostly because now I believe people mistake his excellent neutral as a good approach. He has a ton of leeway to make mistakes, but he doesn't have many approach options apart from spamming massive aerials or using his speed (Or infamously forcing his opponent to approach by charging Limit). Archrelico (talk) 22:49, 30 April 2017 (EDT)

...I'll do it. -- Beep (talk) 00:32, 1 May 2017 (EDT)

Cloud Players

I think we should discuss which Cloud Player should be put in this article.Cause there are so many good Cloud around here. NaughtyPigMario (talk) 09:54, 27 May 2018 (EDT)

I just saw that you listed Leo as the best which he isn't he was certainly the best Cloud early 2017 but Since EVO 2017, Tweek's Cloud has seen improved results and wins so there is no way Leo is better especially since Tweek has better wins with Cloud and has higher peaks (he got 3rd at EVO 2017 by going solo Cloud and he won LEO Saga by primarly using Cloud both of which are S+ tier tourneys). So you should just take into account all the results and not just those of this year. Because most people consider Tweek tied with Leo for best Cloud. Raygo (talk) 11:36, 8 August 2018 (EDT)

Decrease Cloud's MHSP limit back to the default 10 players

So when the "Notable players" sections were overhauled into the "Most historically significant players" sections, a hard 10 player limit was added to every section to reign in the bloat that plagued the "Notable players" lists so severely, with a small handful being given an expanded 15 player limit (or 20 in the case of Melee Fox), when I deemed that the character had more than 10 players that were too indispensable to the character's meta history to exclude. One of these characters were Smash 4 Cloud, as most people would probably agree with on the surface, being the #2 character in Smash 4 by a significant margin and being played by a disgustingly large amount of people, and so I included Cloud in the expanded limit without giving it the scrutiny I should have. When looking over Cloud's MHSP section now, I see many players that are clearly a level or two below the other players, and don't really stack up all that high when considering the very high standards that a character like Cloud carries:

• Blacktwins, who was never PGR'd a single time, and never top 8'd a major either, while having only two major top 16s.

• Mangalitza♀, whose lack of getting PGR'd could be blamed on the PGR undervaluing Japanese players throughout Smash 4, but even then, his only major results are a 65th at Umebura S.A.T. and 49th at Umebura Japan Major, while rarely getting top 8 at Japanese regionals. Was winning Sumabato 21 alone really enough to make him a historically significant Cloud?

• MattyG, who was never PGR'd a single time and also never top 8'd a single major, with only a single major top 16 Super Smash Con 2017.

• Purple~H, who was never PGR'd and doesn't seem to have attended any Smash 4 majors. Is once being considered top 10 in Europe, back when it was even weaker as a superregion than it is Ultimate, really that historically significant with a character of Cloud's caliber?

• Ralphie, yet another NA Cloud that was never PGR'd, and never top 8'd a major (excluding the post-Ultimate Super Smash Con 2019, which a hilarious amount of the notable Smash 4 players dropped out of), and has a single major top 16 at Super Smash Con 2018.

You remove these five players that are clearly a cut below the rest, and the section would become 10 players, while there's also other disputable cases like ANTi (how much Cloud did he really use?), Javi (how much of his results is attributed to Sheik and not Cloud?), and Mao (was his lack of being PGR'd really attributable to Japan being underrated, or was he simply never actually of top 50 caliber?). Compare Cloud's MHSP section to Bayo's MHSP section, and the players in Cloud's are just clearly worse across the board. As such, I'm going to propose decreasing Smash 4 Cloud's MHSP limit back to the default 10. If you oppose this, do provide a compelling reason for why these disputed players are too important to Smash 4's Cloud's history to not include. Omega Tyrant 22:08, January 8, 2025 (EST)

Support, comparing the proposed cuts here with the expanded MHSP on the Bayo page. Antimony (talk) 22:32, January 8, 2025 (EST)

Support, pretty self-explanatory. CookiesCreme 20:22, January 13, 2025 (EST)

As kind of a side note, I looked into ANTi and Javi a bit more to determine how much Cloud they actually used.

ANTI: Cloud was at least a frequently-used secondary for him. He used Cloud in Grand Finals against Zinoto to win CEO 2016, and has also defeated CaptainZack (Pax Arena 2017) and Samsora (DHATL 2017) with just Cloud. He has also used Cloud in games to defeat Kameme (Smashdown World, 1 game of Cloud), NAKAT (GENESIS 4, 2 games of Cloud) . As for events, he primarily used Cloud to place 5th at DHATL 2017 and has secondaried Cloud at multiple other events.

Javi: Javi's Cloud was actually more of a co-main than a secondary, at least until 2018. He has used Cloud to defeat Ned (Big House 7) and Cosmos (DreamHack Denver 2017) as well as in games to defeat Abadango (Big House 7, 2 games) and MkLeo (The Arena 2017, 1 game). At events, he notably used only Cloud to place 4th at Midwest Mayhem 7: Mexico Invasion and used primarily Cloud to place 2nd at The Arena 2017, 9th at 2GGC: GENESIS Saga, and 17th at 2GGC: West Side Saga.

At least to me, I don't think ANTi's Cloud is the reason as to why ANTi is ranked on the PGR 100 (his Mario had a significantly bigger impact) while Javi's Cloud certainly helped him rank on the PGR and the PGR 100, so I would personally remove ANTi and keep Javi. CookiesCreme 14:27, January 15, 2025 (EST)