Forum:General proposals/Archive 4

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Using the tabber for stages and moves

The tabber will be used for overhead shots of the stage in each game it is in. For example, Hyrule Castle would look something like this. Additionally, alternate forms of the stage (such as the two boxing ring designs), or different transformations may be used as well. I also added in a tabber for Peach Bomber, making it show screenshots of both Peach Bomber and Daisy Bomber in Ultimate. However, like with the stages, I don’t know if it should be for the characters or the game. Lou Cena (talk) 00:34, 6 March 2019 (EST)

Support

1. I do think the tabber should be used for stages and moves, but I’m unsure of which way to use it in. Alternate forms, transformations, different characters, or different games? Or a combination of the three? Lou Cena (talk) 00:14, 6 March 2019 (EST)
2. Why not? It's been done for characters, and all past iterations just get thrown into gallery. SugarCookie 420 19:03, March 12, 2019 (EDT)
3. I don't even see why this require a discussion. Maybe you want to be careful because you met quite a lot of opposion on other topics, but this time, it's just a minor change that would improve the overall design of the pages without any downside. I think you should simply go ahead and do it, I don't think anyone will ever complain about that idea. YoshiRyu (talk) 19:32, March 12, 2019 (EDT)

Part of why I thought this needed discussion was for two things:

1. Some images are missing, such as Marth’s Critical Hit in Ultimate

2. I don’t know if I would do it for alternate forms of stages, or the stage across all of its appearances in the series. For characters, again, do I do it for it across all of the games they’re in, or use it just for Ultimate images , but with characters sharing the move using it. And what do I do about characters ehose moves differ slightly in function, such as Gale Boomerang? Do they still go there or are they being split? Lou Cena (talk) 11:32, March 13, 2019 (EDT)

Although I am in favor of doing so (as I've done for a few Final Smashes), we should currently refrain doing so from the moves that are being discussed to be merging or splitting until a derision is reached for those. Wolff (talk) 14:59, March 13, 2019 (EDT)

My comment was more about doing it for the stages (I completly forgot that this went on with the moves). So for the stages, I think you should just go ahead and do it, no one will complain. YoshiRyu (talk) 16:03, March 13, 2019 (EDT)

I see no downside with doing it for stages. Wolff (talk) 16:05, March 13, 2019 (EDT)

I think the returning stages should work like Link and Zelda's main character pages. Their appearances in Smash go OoT, TP, and BotW/ALBW, but their pages go in the reverse order as BotW and ALBW are their most recent. I think the stages should go Ultimate/4/Brawl/Melee/64. Wolff (talk) 01:41, March 15, 2019 (EDT)

Oppose

1.

Neutral

1.

Removing "Origin Game" sections in Spirit lists

Along with artwork sources within the section, this type of information was added at a time when the game was yet to release and information on spirits was limited. Since then, the Origin Game section has become obsolete due to the game's own "Series" listing, but spirit lists continue to use the former. I propose for the removal of the Origin Game sections in these lists, and if necessary substitute them with the Series names from the "Series Order" sections. Nokii — 17:35, 8 March 2019 (EST)

A simple example of how spirit list tables would be affected if this proposal was accepted can be found here, both with and without the Series Order section for comparison. Nokii — 21:21, 9 March 2019 (EST)

Merging and Splitting Moves

Recently, someone pointed out that the Final Smashes of Daisy, Isabelle, Dark Samus, and Dr, Mario are more or less identical to Peach, Villager, Samus, and Mario's. Someone else also pointed out that moves such as Pit's and Dark Pit's are on the same page despite being classified as different moves. I figured that rather than having individual discussions on them that we could instead tackle them all at once.

So the questions are should they merge or split?

Final Smashes

Final Smashes 1: Should Daisy Blossom, Phazon Laser, Doctor Finale, and Dream Town Hall be merged with Peach Blossom, Zero Laser (Samus), Mario Finale, and Dream Home respectively?

1. Support: I’m the one who added those tags in the first place. They function exactly the same as their parent moves. There’s no reason for them to be separate. Lou Cena (talk) 03:36, 10 March 2019 (EDT)

They do have differences from their counterparts, not to mention different names. Wolff (talk) 21:04, 10 March 2019 (EDT)

Final Smashes 2: Should Roy's Critical Hit get it own page as it functions different from Marth and Lucina's? With that in mind, should Zero Lazer stay as two separate pages for Samus' and Zero Suit Samus'?

1. Support: It’s an entirely different move. Saying that Roy and Marth share the same final smash is like saying that Pikachu and Robin have the same move assigned to different inputs. I would argue that Wario-Man should also be split, since it works entirely differently. Lou Cena (talk) 03:36, 10 March 2019 (EDT)

Although characters like Bowser and Little Mac FS in Ultimate use the same characters (Giga Bowser/Mac) but function differently, they also have different names from previous installments. I would be more inclined to agree if Wario's was like theirs. Luigi and Rosalina keep one page as only the name changed, not also the function. I see no problem with Roy's Critical Hit being with Marth and Lucina. In fact, now that we can use more than one photo in the info box, perhaps we should merge both of Samus' and Zero Suit's Zero Lasers? Wolff (talk) 21:04, 10 March 2019 (EDT)

Oppose see Final Smashes 3 Xtra Talk, Edits. 23:24, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

Final Smashes 3: Should Zero suit samus's zero lazer page, which currently has its own page, be merged or should roys critical hit be split. one of these 2 things need to be done, because they are 2 cases of conflicting interest. Either way whatever happens something needs to happen to one of the 2 pages to keep things consistent. Xtra3678 (talk) 09:57, 11 March 2019 (EDT)

That is true. I think the Zero suit Samus and Samus' Final Smashes should be merged as it is called the same thing. Had it shared a name but was used by two different characters that did not share a universe, then I think it would make sense to separate them. I think it is more confusing merging pages with different names or separating those that share one. If I want info on Critical Hit, I would go to the page. If I wanted info on Roy's, I'd go down the page to Roy's. Wolff (talk) 21:50, March 11, 2019 (EDT)

I Support making critical hit and Zero Laser all be on one page, due to the fact that if you look up the page for zero laser, you'd be able to find info on both zero lasers in only 1 page. However i can also see how separating 2 different characters pages would be beneficial, and instead would make it so that critical hit for roy has its own page. Either way there's no standard and there needs to be one soon. Xtra3678 (talk) 07:47, March 12, 2019 (EDT)

I briefly mentioned the situation regarding Luigi and Rosalina's FS, Bowser and Little Mac's FS, and Wario's FS. Going by that, I feel it would make more sense to to have one page for Zero Laser and one page for Critical Hit. If we were to separate them, what would be stopping us from having three different pages for Critical Hit, Landmaster, or Tri-force Slash regardless of similarities or differences? Wolff (talk) 22:38, March 12, 2019 (EDT)

This is also a very good reason to merge the pages because we all know that stuff like the different landmasters, or triforce slashes don't deserve their own page, and luigis and rosalinas smashes only have a name change and are otherwise identical, so they also don't deserve their own page. Wario-man Probably deserves its own discussion, but i don't see why you would bring up little mac, considering it is a different smash functionally, and has a different name (Giga mac ssb4, Giga mac Rush SSBU). either way i still think its a good idea to merge zss and samus amd keep critical hit the same.Xtra3678 (talk) 08:15, March 13, 2019 (EDT)

Final Smashes 4 Warios final smash is named the same thing, wario man, in all 3 games with final smashes, but in brawl and ssb4 they are nearly identical and is a transformation final smash, but in ssbu his final smash is a cutscene smash and is used entirely differently, almost as if it is a entirely different move. The only problem is that due to them having the same name, they share a page. The question i bring is if it would be smarter to keep the 2 smashes merged, or if it were smarter to split the page into a brawl and ssb4 page and a ssbu page.Xtra3678 (talk) 12:41, March 13, 2019 (EDT)

Wario's was originally decided to stay the same alongside Bowser and Little Mac's being split. This stemmed from someone asking about how Diddy's new Final Smash got a new page. However, Diddy's was separated due to functioning differently along with a new name, much like Bowser's and Little Mac's. On that, Wario's was decided to stay the same as it had the same name despite functioning differently. Not to mention R.O.B.'s. I still prefer the decision that was reached. Wolff (talk) 14:58, March 13, 2019 (EDT)

Special Moves

Special Moves 1: Should Gale Boomerang, Silver Bow, Electroshock Arm, and Super Sheet be separated from Boomerang, Palutena Bow, Upperdash Arm, and Cape?

1. Oppose: I wanted to split Roy’s FS because it was so drastically different from Marth’s. These moves, however, are the same move. Honestly, I want the bows, Fire Bird, Dr. Tornado, Agility, Double edge dance, and whatever else is split to be merged. They’re the same move. A different name or a very minor function change isn’t enough. They have the same origin, unlike Chrom and Ike’s up specials. Lou Cena (talk) 03:36, 10 March 2019 (EDT)

The Fire Fox/Bird/Wolf not only have different names, but function differently too. I do not think the Gale Boomerang should be with the others, it's a different boomerang with a different name and a few different properties. I think Agility and Double edge dance should be separated from whatever moves that they share similarities with. I do think the Pit and Dark Pit's bows and arms should be separated. It seems weird to me to bump them together if they are not named the same thing. Wolff (talk) 21:04, 10 March 2019 (EDT)

Neutrual I feel that these moves have enough defferences to deserve their own page, but they also feel like they still fit on the page they are already on. I also oppose moving Gale boomerang because I feel it isn't different enough.Xtra Talk, Edits. 21:41, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

Special Moves 2: Should Remote Bombs be merged with Bombs?

1. Oppose: While I did say that I didn’t want similar moves to have separate pages, this one is different enough to warrant its own page. It detonates based on another tap, and is thrown automatically. While it looks similar, comparing them is like comparing Wolf and Fox’s blaster. It doesn’t work.

But you are saying that you want other moves to be merged despite having only minor differences ("minor" can also mean the amount of differences). The Blasters could actually be merged to be similar to the StarFox characters' Landmasters. Wolff (talk) 21:04, 10 March 2019 (EDT)

1. Oppose: Bombs and remote bombs are about as similar in name and they explode. They otherwise act completely differently and defiantly deserve their own page. Xtra3678 (talk) 11:17, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

Agreed. Wolff (talk) 21:24, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

Special Moves 3 Should wolf's special moves be merged with fox/falcos page or kept due to their special properties. Xtra Talk Edits 23:37, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

Special Moves 4 Should the moves be merged because they are "similar", or separated because there are "differences". Wolff (talk) 22:45, 9 March 2019 (EST)

Another thing is their origins. Some moves wanting to be merged, despite being similar, have different origins. Likewise, some wanting to be separated, despite having differences, have the same origin.

Regardless, the opinions of more than just two people are needed for this to really go anywhere. (I also feel the way the paragraphs/sentences in this discussion are layout is confusing) Wolff (talk) 21:04, 10 March 2019 (EDT)

General Decisions

Oppose to all merging : I think all moves, regardless of how similar they are, should have their own page. You never know what move could be changed in the next update, and merging two pages that you may need to unmerge later is a bad idea. Plus some details may be relevant to a single one of two similar moves, like the move origin, or a trivia point. YoshiRyu (talk) 05:24, March 12, 2019 (EDT)

That appears to be what is in general favored by almost everyone, but i feel that we still need a bit more discussion for this before we go through with it. Xtra3678 (talk) 07:28, March 12, 2019 (EDT)

So YoshiRyu, are you saying that all the moves named something different should be split, and moves that are named the same should be merged? If so, I agree, especially with the possibility regarding updates. If not, could you elaborate more on it? Wolff (talk) 22:38, March 12, 2019 (EDT)

Neutrual: I think we can split the different character's moves and merge the iterations of the same moves. The page names can be unified as the latest name or "Move (character)".--Capstalker (talk) 22:52, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

Do you mean like separating the Gale Boomerang from the regular Boomerang and merging the StarFox Blasters? Wolff (talk) 23:11, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

I personally think that the blasters and boomerangs are good as they are, but obviously I'm not the entire oppinoun of the wiki, just I think that not splitting boomerangs but keeping wolf's separate from falco and fox is goodXtra Talk, Edits. 23:27, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

Approve merging final Smashes with the same name and keeping ones with differnt names separate.

Approve Agreed. Wolff (talk) 01:42, March 15, 2019 (EDT)

Final Smashes:

• Daisy Blossom - Merge
• Doctor Finale - Keep separate
• Phazon Laser - Merge
• Zero Laser - Keep separate
• Dream Town Hall - Merge
• Critical Hit - Separate Roy's
• Wario-Man - Don't separate

Special moves:

• Agility - Keep separate
• Double-Edge Dance - Keep separate
• Wolf's special moves - Keep separate
• Boomerang - Don't separate

MHStarCraft 20:41, March 15, 2019 (EDT)

Could you elaborate on your reasoning for each move MH? Wolff (talk) 20:58, March 15, 2019 (EDT)

My reasoning for this is that Diasy Blossom, Phazon Laser, and Dream Two Hall are the same visually while Zero Suit Samus' Zero Laser definitely functions differently from Samus' Zero Laser. Doctor Finale is more of a case where it's visually different while Roy's Critical Hit is performed differently. Boomerang seems fine as is, as yes, there are three boomerang users but other than there being two types of them, they all function the same. MHStarCraft 10:35, March 16, 2019 (EDT)

I personally think that it should go

Final Smashes:

• Daisy Blossom - Keep separate
• Doctor Finale - Keep separate
• Phazon Laser - Keep separate
• Zero Laser - Merge
• Dream Town Hall - Keep separate
• Critical Hit - Don't separate
• Wario-Man - Don't separate

Special moves:

• Agility - Keep separate
• Double-Edge Dance - Keep separate
• Wolf's special moves - Keep separate
• Boomerang - Don't separate

My reasons For this is simply names. All the final Smashes listed I want merged have the same name and all I didn't have different names. For specials I don't want to merge any because 1. They have different names and 2. Most have different properties. The only one I want to keep is boomerangs and that's because there are 4 different boomerangs and while they all have different names other than Gale (which has minor physics changes) all act 100% the same. Plus it just makes sense for them to be on the same page. Xtra Talk Edits 22:01, March 15, 2019 (EDT)

1. I do not know what 4th Boomerang you're referring to, but the item boomerang does already have its own page as it is an item and not a move. I think the Gale (used by TP Link) has enough differences from the regular boomerang (used by Young Link and Toon Link) to warrant its own page on top of having a different name. Wolff (talk) 17:14, March 16, 2019 (EDT)
2. Out of the different named Final Smashes, Daisy Blossom is the only one I could consider merging as all of Daisy's special moves are shared with Peach's. However, I am not entirely sure that it should count for Final Smashes as Daisy's would then be the only one. She is unfortunately the most carbon copy out of the Echos/Clones when it comes to specials. All the other Final Smashes with different names have different origins, and have at least one difference that effects game play (if not just how much damage it deals in comparison). Wolff (talk) 17:14, March 16, 2019 (EDT)
3. Regarding Wolf's Special moves, I think the blaster and reflector should be merged with Fox's along with Falco's as they have the same name. If people are concern with major differences of the moves between characters, the page can be like the Landmaster where it separates the page by character. It goes into detail regarding Fox's Landmaster, then Falco's Landmaster, and finally Wolf's Landmaster. (Similar to Critical Hit) And because of the table of context, it would not be hard to quickly go to the section of one's character of choice. Wolff (talk) 17:14, March 16, 2019 (EDT)

1. the 4 boomerangs are young and ssbm links boomerang, Gale, toon links, and botw link. Thinking about it now though, Gale boomerang defiantely deserves it's own page, and is definitely different enough from the other boomerangs.
2. I feel we should not merge Daisy's due to the fact that she is the only one who has a similar enough final smash to consider merging and still has a different name and aesthetics, and thus I feel it is not a good idea to merge them still.
3. I still feel like more discussion is required for wolf because I have no clear idea on what should be done, Because wolf has some specials with different names and yet has the same function as fox Fire Wolf, different name and different function (I forgot this one's name but it's side special), same name and same function Reflector, and same name different function Blaster. There's just a lot of variables that there's just no clear answer for him.
4. Finally we just flat out shouldn't merge moves like agility and double edge dance because not only do they function differently, but also have different names, which is just more reason to split Gale boomerang. Xtra Talk Edits 00:36, March 17, 2019 (EDT)

So currently that would mean:

1. Keep Final Sames with different names separated and merge those that have the same name. (which means Zero Laser gets merged, Wario-Man and Critical Hit stay as one page, the the rest stay as is)
2. Keep special moves with different names separated, and merge those that have the same name. (which means Gale Boomerang and Remote Bombs separated are from the regular Boomerang(s) and Bomb(s))
3. Which would leave the StarFox blasters and reflectors as well as the Kid Icarus bows and arms, and the Mario capes undecided regardless if they fall in #2.

Does the pretty much sum it up for now? Or do those in #3 actually do fall under #2 as well? Wolff (talk) 20:17, March 17, 2019 (EDT)

Yeah that pretty much sums it up. Do you think we should start implementing it?Xtra Talk Edits 08:22, March 19, 2019 (EDT)

Probably Wolff (talk) 15:42, March 19, 2019 (EDT)

I changed all what was discussed. (I do not know how to redirect Samus and Zero Suit's FS on the FS shortcut though) Wolff (talk) 23:29, March 19, 2019 (EDT)

Merging and Splitting Moves 2

Should Fox, Falco, and Wolf's Blasters and Reflectors be merged, and should Silver Bow and Electroshock Arm be separated from Palutena Bow and Upperdash Arm? If we're going by what was decided with all the other moves, then the StarFox moves should be merged and the Kid Icarus moves be separated. However, Palutena has a move named reflector while Inkling has one named blaster. If the StarFox moves do get merged, then they should possibly be named "Blasters (StarFox)" and "Reflectors (StarFox)". Although, naming it like that may not be necessary as those moves of Palutena and Inkling do not have their own pages. Wolff (talk) 23:36, March 19, 2019 (EDT)

I disagree heavily with both of these. Frankly, I’m dissatisfied with the fact that moves would be merged if they have the same name. What matters more is a move’s function. Otherwise, Pikachu’s down b and Robin’s neutral b would have to be on the same page because they’re both called “Thunder”. I would heavily suggest re-splitting Zero Laser, split critical hit, and keep Wolf and Falco’s specials separate while keeping Dark Pit’s merged. Lou Cena (talk) 01:45, March 20, 2019 (EDT)

I feel like this is an obvious yes this should happen, and i honestly thought that was apart of what was discussed in the last proposal. Xtra Talk Edits 07:08, March 20, 2019 (EDT)

Alright so This is what i feel should go into effect. Both the blaster pages and the reflector pages get merged into Blaster and Reflector, and to make up for the disambiguation pages, due to the fact that nothing else is actually named blaster or reflector, (except for inklings upsmash which doesn't have its own page) we don't need to do it as Reflectors (StarFox) and just put at the top

For the other down special moves a similar name, see Reflect Barrier.

Xtra Talk Edits 14:46, March 20, 2019 (EDT)

(For Lou Cena) :The decision was carried as it was thought it was complete. As to prevent from large edit wars from happening across numerous pages, it should be refrained from restarting the discussions regarding the former moves. As that is what I usually tend to see happen, regardless if someone were to disagree after it was carried out. They are usually told the decision was already/just reached and to not restart it. Although, I do not know much time has to pass in order to restart it.

Actually, both Thunders are separated. In this case, the move is separated across series rather than fighters. It would appear that the move specifies the user if fighters from different series use it. We have three fighters that use Thunder. Since two Pokémon use thunder, we have Thunder (Pokémon), and we have Thunder (Robin) as Robin is the only Fire Emblem character to use thunder. The blasters and reflectors would be the same.

I agree Xtra, that would make sense. I wasn't sure if Palutena's had a page. Wolff (talk) 14:57, March 20, 2019 (EDT)

You’re forgetting the fact that Daisy’s specials moves have different names, yet are exactly functionally the same as Peach’s, differing only in particle effecgs. I don’t think separation by name is a good idea at all. If it has a majorly different function, then it should be separated. Otherwise, dumb stuff like Daisy’s and Dark Pit’s specials being separated despite being the same happens. I don’t think the consensus should’ve been carried out so fast. Lou Cena (talk) 18:54, March 21, 2019 (EDT)

Personally I think separating by function makes things alot worse than separating by name, because if I need the page for a reflector then I go to the reflector page, and if I want to see the page for agility, I would have to go to the page for quick attack. From a information catalogging stand point naming things like this just makes sense, because these are the names of the moves. Xtra Talk Edits 19:06, March 21, 2019 (EDT)

Yeah, but like I said, then things like Daisy’s and Dark Pit’s moves would end up with different pages, which either differ in function too minimally for them to even be considered separate moves, or don’t differ in function at all. I’d rather catalog it by technique than by name. Disimbaguations exist for a reason. Lou Cena (talk) 19:08, March 21, 2019 (EDT)

But isn’t Daisy’s the odd one out? Aside from hit box, she is unfortunately just Peach. It would get confusing to separate moves outside of their names, wouldn’t it? Not to mention the origins that was mentioned before. I’m sure the reason for Daisy’s Final Smash being separate is because Final Smashes are treated differently then Special Moves. If I wanted to find a move like the Remote Bombs, I wouldn’t want to go to Bombs as it is considered a different move. Daisy’s are the current exception. Also, there apparently was a discussion a long time ago that was agreed to separate (one of) Dark Pit’s moves from Pit?, but was never carried out 66.194.104.5 20:31, March 21, 2019 (EDT)

That’s why she, nor Dark Pit, should have their moves be separated. Function matters over name. I’m on your side of this argument. Lou Cena (talk) 21:53, March 21, 2019 (EDT)

Actually a difference was recently discovered. Peach and Daisy's turnips have different KBG and BKB. SugarCookie 420 20:46, March 21, 2019 (EDT)

That’s bot what we’re talking about though. Her vegetable has the same name, yet it’s the only one of Daisy’s moves with any sort of difference in function. Yet, Daisy Bomber and Peach Bomber have different names, yet are completely alike aside from particle effects. There’s a good reason why we didn’t separate Electroshock Arm or Silver Bow Yet: They’re not different enough to be separate. Sure, they have a minor difference, but it’s not enough. Same with Dream Town Hall, Daisy Blossom, and Phazon Laser. We end up with weird stuff like this where completely different final smashes share a page (such as Roy and Lucina), while complete cloned moves end up on separate pages. Lou Cena (talk) 21:53, March 21, 2019 (EDT)

Daisy does appaer to be the exeption. The move is called "Vegetable". It might have been different had it been one of Daisy's other moves. Wolff (talk) 22:08, March 21, 2019 (EDT)

And I do remember that discussion on separating Dark Pit's moves as well. It would seem it had been agreed upon separating the Electroshock Arm from the Upperdash Arm. It also seemed to be the case with the Silver Bow from the Palutena Bow, but I'm not entirely sure with the bows. Wolff (talk) 22:08, March 21, 2019 (EDT)

With moves like Quick Attack and Agility , although may function similarly in Smash, they are not the same move in Pokemon, which gives them different origins. What also makes it different is that Pikachu is the only user of Quick Attack while Pichu is the only user of Pichu. They also have trivia that wouldn't make sense to combined. The trivia refers to the individual moves instead of it being the same move. Wolff (talk) 22:08, March 21, 2019 (EDT)

True, but then there’s moves like Double-edge dance and Fire Bow, which are either smash original or they change the arrows instead of the bow (thus eliminating the need for a separate page just because of origins.) Lou Cena (talk) 12:31, March 22, 2019 (EDT)

Plus both of the moves potentially being split for pit have different origins, and also have a few differences that allow them to deserve their own page, I also feel that I should mention that function should not determine if a page is split or not, because if they have different names then they are different special moves. Otherwise, we would be combining silver bow and palutinas bow with the Zelda bows. Xtra Talk Edits 23:35, March 21, 2019 (EDT)

That's true. They should not be merged just because they function the same. We'd just be merging unrelated moves at that point. In the case of the move "Thunder", it is separated by series as both a character from Pokemon and one from Fire Emblem have a move named that. It is separated as it would not make sense to merge moves across different series. Wolff (talk) 23:56, March 21, 2019 (EDT)

Going by that logic, the Star Fox Blasters and Reflectors should then be merged, as just functioning differently without a name change doesn't appear to be enough for splitting it. (With Daisy, unfortunately, being the sole exception) Wolff (talk) 23:56, March 21, 2019 (EDT)

Critical Hit is Critical Hit, just like how PK Starstorm is one page. And Thunder is separated by series. Lou Cena, is it possible for you explain in a little more detail on exactly why you think the functionality should determine if the same named thing should be separated? You seem very adamant about this. Wolff (talk) 22:08, March 21, 2019 (EDT)

Fox's Blaster and Wolf's Blaster simply aren't the same move. "Blaster" is just a very common word. The question you should be asking is more Is an identical name enough to consider two moves are the same one ? If Sheik's Burst Grenade was simply blatantly named Bomb, would you then consider it to be the same move as Young Link's Bomb ? You're all arguing about names, but a name doesn't define a move, the game would be the exact same if Mario's Fireball was named Burning Blast of Dooom!!! instead. So...

• Fox's Blaster and Wolf's Blaster are different moves despite being named the same, and a Blaster search need to lead to a disambiguation page.
• Peach Bomber and Daisy Bomber are the same move despite being named differently, and a Daisy Bomber search need to lead to the Peach Bomber page.
• Are Mario's Fireball and Luigi's Fireball the same move ? Arguable, as they have a lots of similarities, but also fundamental differences.

The moves names should play no part in the decision : Would you consider Bayonetta's neutral attack to be a different move based on the selected palette (because the guns from Bayonetta 1 are not named the same as the guns from Bayonetta 2) ? YoshiRyu (talk) 07:27, March 22, 2019 (EDT)

You explained it perfectly. If some other character had a move called crownerang, I wouldn’t want to see all of K Rool’s advanced tech if I wanted to see the other crownerang. Lou Cena (talk) 12:31, March 22, 2019 (EDT)

Alright so I made draft pages of what the merged starfox reflectors and and blasters would look like. Any edits are welcome incase it looks weird in some parts, but this was made for the purpose of seeing what it would look like and see if it can influence discussion on if the pages should be merged or not. The pages can be found at User:Xtra3678/Blaster, and User:Xtra3678/Reflector. Xtra Talk Edits 08:08, March 22, 2019 (EDT)

I’m going to be completely honest here: They look terrible. There’s a bunch of tech on Fox’s reflector that wouldn’t be possible on Falco anymore even wih Melee physics and it never applied to Wolf. All the drafts did was convince me that they should stay separate. Lou Cena (talk) 12:31, March 22, 2019 (EDT)

Thats why the techs only talk about fox mostly. They specifically mention fox only, and the ones that are applicable to falco mention falco. Plus this is still open to editing to make it look better on the merged page, but I still feel that merging reflector, and blaster is the smartest desision to make.Xtra Talk Edits 12:35, March 22, 2019 (EDT)

Why would I want some of Fox’s shine techs to be on a page if I’m looking for Falco’s techs. The answer is hat I don’t. Why would I want info about Falco’s and Fox’s throws if I’m looking for Wolf’s Blaster (which is not used in any throw)? Again, I wouldn’t want it. Lou Cena (talk) 13:08, March 23, 2019 (EDT)

Did you see the way I had edited it? Do you think that, or how it was before, would look better? Wolff (talk) 17:03, March 23, 2019 (EDT)

This is how I would organize the User:Xtra3678/Blaster|Blaster and User:Xtra3678/Reflector|Reflector pages. Wolff (talk) 18:02, March 22, 2019 (EDT)

That looks a lot worse because we're not actually merging any information there, just putting it on one page and we have a lot of repeated information (like the entirety of the throws section in blaster). I feel what it looked like before was better because of the information being together and a lack of repeated information. Xtra Talk Edits 01:22, March 23, 2019 (EDT)

I just tried to make it resemble the Landmaster page, which is separated by character. Fox's info goes first, then Falco's, and finally Wolf's. Any repeated info can probably be rewritten into the Overview as that is most likely what they have in common, then the character specified info (such as minor differences, damage values, and techniques) can go in their respective character page. Wolff (talk) 01:38, March 23, 2019 (EDT)

Does anyone have anymore supportive or opposing thoughts on the matter? Wolff (talk) 19:34, March 25, 2019 (EDT)

I feel like we should merge the blaster page, should combine the custom and throws tab of fox and falco due to them having copied information, and also merge the custom section of reflectors, but otherwise i feel it is the best choice to merge the blaster, and reflector pages.Xtra Talk Edits 08:10, March 26, 2019 (EDT)

The throws section needs work. Not all the varying values are shown. Regardless, I guess the pages can be categorized that way. Wolff (talk) 00:52, March 27, 2019 (EDT)

If the Blasters and Reflectors were to be merged, what of the Arms, Bows, and Sheets? Should they stay merged, or separate? I'd rather they separate. Wolff (talk) 22:15, March 27, 2019 (EDT)

Blasters should stay separate, while Dark Pit’s should stay merged. It matters whether a character is a semi-clone or a full clone. YL and TL are semis, and their boomerangs have fairly different applications. Same with Falco’s and Wolf’s (the latter being a psudeo). They’re different in everything but name. Roy’s Double-edge dance should be merged because it actually is the same in function. Dark Pit’s should stay merged because he’s a full clone, and separating them implies that he’s less of a full clone. Lou Cena (talk) 23:21, March 28, 2019 (EDT)

Ganon is considered to be a kind of "clone" to Falcon, right? Going by that logic, we would then be merging the pages for their moves. A character being classified as some kind of "clone" or not shouldn't be a factor for merging and splitting their moves. Wolff (talk) 23:55, March 28, 2019 (EDT)

There must be a reason for moves having shared or differing names. Otherwise, what would be the point of naming them in the first place? Daisy is an exception as no other character is in a similar possession with all her moves (other than Vegetable) function the same as Peach's but with different names. Double-edge Dance is also an exception as no other multi-user moves share a name in one language and not the other (at least, not that I can recall), having a separate name in English (Dancing Blade) but a shared name in Japanese (Marvelous Combination). As such, the discussions regarding Daisy's moves and Double-edge Dance should be separate discussions from merging and separating the other moves since they are unique cases. As they are unique cases, they have points to merge or separate that the other moves don't. Wolff (talk) 23:55, March 28, 2019 (EDT)

So, you think we should merge Double-Edge dance since its Japanese name is the same? Rlectroshock isn’t different enough, and separating it implies that Dark Pit is less of a clone. It even shares the same customs. Luigi Cyclone, Mario Tornado, and Dr. Tornado all have the same customs and purpose, and should be merged. The blasters and reflectors are different in everything but name; keep them separate. The cape and super sheet had the same sutoms, so they should probably be metged as well. Lou Cena (talk) 03:21, March 30, 2019 (EDT)

I meant that we should talk about Daisy's moves and Double-Edge Dance after we decide what to do with the other moves as Daisy's moves and Double-Edge Dance don't follow the norm. Wolff (talk) 04:23, March 30, 2019 (EDT)

Merging and Splitting Moves 2.1

For about half a month, there has been discussion to split and/or merge certain moves. However, I believe certain points were just constantly being repeated from both sides and would not reach a conclusion because of that. I would like to try something different to see if we cannot reach a better POV, and perhaps conclusion, this way. Certain moves have been in the discussion since around the beginning that have yet to receive a conclusion for. Those mainly being the Blasters and Reflectors from Star Fox for merging, as well as the Bows and Arms from Kid Icarus for separating, and the Capes from Mario for separating. I think we should take the moves one step at a time, and go by series and decide from there. That way, numerous points for different moves probably will not just be repeated all other the place and get confusing.

(Note: Please do not start discussion regarding the other moves on the merge/separate list, or use them as examples, as we are trying going to go through them by series. We will get to them eventually. Also, please do not use Daisy's moves or Double-Edge Dance as examples for this either as they are unique exceptions to this situation. We'll get to them last.)

Let's start with the Star Fox moves first.

Blasters & Reflectors

Series: Star Fox

User(s): Fox, Falco, and Wolf.

Among the reasons previously stated to Merge: Same Name, Same Origin.

Among the reasons previously stated to Split: Works differently.

Note: Currently, the only moves to function the same with different names are Luigi's and Rosalina's Final Smashes in Ultimate. However, the reason for the name change was aesthetic. (Ultimate changed the appearance of what they used for their FS)

Note 2: Those are also Final Smashes, not Special moves.

Aside from what has already been listed above, what other reasons could there be to split or merge them? Wolff (talk) 04:23, March 30, 2019 (EDT)

I personally don't see them working differently as a reason to keep them split, because they all work pretty simularly, and have alot of identical stuff about them, like the throws for blasters. I feel the reasons to merged out way the reasons to keep splitXtra Talk Edits 07:36, March 30, 2019 (EDT)

There is many projectiles that all work pretty similarly and have a lot of identical stuff about them... should we merge all the moves that have throws ? At this point, I feel like some people want to merge moves just for the sake of merging moves... all the reasons they point out are also true for moves they would never consider mergin (would you merge DK and Mac FS ? because those two are way more similar than Fox and Wolf blasters) YoshiRyu (talk) 04:49, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

I wouldn't merge those because while they may be similar, if they were to be named they would have completely different names, as well as belonging to different series. The reason to merge the starfox blasters is because every starfox charecter has one and they're all pretty similar. Xtra Talk Edits 05:58, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

I keep seeing people saying they are similar. I still don't see any one clearly stating in which way they're supposed to be, aside from vague point that would made half of the projectiles similar. I main Wolf, and I'm so bad with Fox, I can tell from experience that Wolf's blaster is nothing like Fox's. Wolf's blaster is a long range attack with a short range hitbox, chich is almost an unique feature in the whole game. And Fox's blaster can't even KO, how can people consider Fox's and Wolf blaster to be the same thing when they're not even designed to fill the same purpose ? It would just be like saying that Mac's specials are just the same as normal jabs because they're simply punches... YoshiRyu (talk) 08:00, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

They are similar in that they are both the nutural special of a starfox charecter, named blaster in which the user takes out a laser pistol and fires a single shot of a laser projectile per press of the b button. The only differences is the projectile properties, the speed they can be used at, and the fact wolf's is also a melee. Simply is not enough of a reason to decide not to merge them compaired to the reasons to merge them. Xtra Talk Edits 08:23, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

So, said otherwise, they entirely different moves except for the fact that they are named the same, and that they are from the same series... Question : this is a wikipedia, so do you think there is a single user that would want to have a simulaneous access to two totally different moves just because they happen to be named the same ? You do realize that the exact same moves could have been named differently, that the dev team could have named those move Fox's Blaster and Wolf's Blaster ? That they could even have no name at all for those names have no use aside referencing the moves in the manual/hints ? Therefore the whole argument that those need to be merged is build upon a totally arbitrary detail. I mean, do you really consider that a name, a thing that have zero relevance gameplaywise, should matter ? Is this a wikipedia about a game or about naming convention ? Different moves, different pages, names doesn't mean a damn thing. YoshiRyu (talk) 08:48, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

Any one else like to discuss? Wolff (talk) 19:49, March 31, 2019 (EDT)

Would the confusion about which move to merge be solved by splitting all similar moves? SeanWheeler (talk) 21:54, March 31, 2019 (EDT)

Honestly, if we can’t come to an agreement on which moves should be merged or split, this is the way to go. Should we split up every move as well? For example, Lucina and Chrom’s dancing blade is as different from their counterparts’ as much as Silver Bow is from the Pits. So every single move should probably be split up then, including shared moves. Lou Cena (talk) 11:28, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

Splitting or Merging all moves are going to the extreme of each other, and neither is a reasonable conclusion. Wolff (talk) 16:47, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

Let me see if I can explain my reasoning a little better with an example. There are different types of dances, such as Waltz, Tango, Salsa, and FoxTrot. Each have different and similar techniques for the type of dance, which can be used to change it up a little. Such as going up and down in Waltz and shaking one's hips more in Salsa, or using a Triple-step over a Double-step. The Blasters, by name, are the same move (Dance), the characters just use them differently (technique). Same goes for the Reflectors. The Upperdash Arm and Electroshock Arm, by name, are different moves (Dances) with similar techniques. Same goes for the Bows and Capes. (Please don't bring up Daisy's moves or Double-Edge Dance as they are currently the only exceptions to this.) Wolff (talk) 16:47, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

Honnestly, at this point, "pro-merge" people sound like people from the flat earth society, seriously...

Names are nothing more but a convention. Two people having the same name doesn't make them the same person. Why do you think that something as pointless as a name define a move !? It's like seeing homonyms and starting saying that they must be the same word because they're written with the same letters... a name is a convention. Fox's and Wolf's blaster aren't named the same because the devs considered them to be the same move but because they went the easy way. Why is that so hard to understand ? Do you really not realize that the names of any move could have been different if a single person, the guy who picked them, just decided to ? Stop trying to find a reason for why some moves have the same names and others don't, that's just a random thing. Daisy's moves are not an exception to the rules, because there is no rule. Moves likes the blasters are named the same simply because the person who did that was uninspired when he did that. There is no deep meaning behind those two moves being named the same, naming a move for the solely purpose of referencing it in a manual is not somehting anyone should consider as significant. Fox's and Wolf's blasters aren't the same moves, ask any Fox or Wolf players.

Think of it this way :

• Fox's blaster and Wolf's blaster are like homonyms : homonyms sound the same, but have a different meaning; just like blasters sound the same, but have a different function.
• Peach's bomber and Daisy's bomber are la synonyms : synonyms sound different, yet have the same meaning; just like bombers sound different, yet have the same function.

And please, don't ever tell me that Fox's blaster and Wolf's blaster are functionally similar. If you think so, I doubt you either played those characters, because Wolf's blaster is no more similiar to Fox's blaster than Mario's fireball is. Yes, they're both projectile, but that's it, the similarities go no further than that. YoshiRyu (talk) 18:03, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

Could you please elaborate on the differences between the Star Fox Blasters and Reflectors that make them different "moves"? From my perspective, the previously mentioned differences I've seen just seem more like different techniques that can only be applied to the specific attributes of the individual character when using the moves, rather than entirely different moves. I'm just having a hard time understanding, even when looking at videos on, and the the Star Fox characters. (I have used them, but I prefer not to) Wolff (talk) 18:39, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

Why don't you have this discussion on the proper article. SerpentKing 18:40, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

Section Merging and Splitting Moves 2.1, sub-section Blasters & Reflectors seems like the right place to have this discussion (especially because it involve several pages, and also because it goes beyond the few moves we build our points upon). YoshiRyu (talk) 18:46, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

General proposals is not the place to do this. It's too easy to miss stuff here. SerpentKing 18:49, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

But we are not just talking about the Blasters. Overall, we are also talking about the Reflectors, Upperdash Arm, Electroshock Arm, Palutena Bow, Silver Bow, Cape, and Super Sheet. They all fall under what were are currently discussing, which is whether or not we should merge and/or split them. Because of that, it makes more sense to discuss them here than it is to keep bringing up the other mentioned moves on 3 (or 10) different pages. Wolff (talk) 19:21, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

This will simply never get done, due to 2 different oppinouns by different groups being spread about repeatedly back at each other with noone taking each others arguments in to account, and nothing ever getting done. what can we do to get something done. XtraTalk Edits 13:20, April 4, 2019 (EDT)

Just leave it alone tbh. Having them split or on one article barely matters in this case. SerpentKing 13:29, April 4, 2019 (EDT)