Talk:Alternate costume (SSBU)/Archive 2

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Sonic's Dark Alt

I believe Sonic's Dark Alt is referencing the Dark Sonic moment in Sonic X which turned Sonic Pure Black with a Dark Aura. [1] (As seen here.)

Simon and Trevor's alt colors

Hey guys, decided to look at all of Simon's and Richter's recolors, and given the wiki has very few for the both of them I thought I'd give my two cents
Simon's Colors

• Default
• Castlevania 2 Design (Red and Gold design from cover artwork)
• Alucard (SoTn design)
• Juste Belmont (Simon's grandson, Gray hair with red outfit, purple highlights are based on the sprite)
• Richter (Blue and white outfit with Brown Hair)
• Cornell (Purple outfit, Silver hair)
• Julius Belmont (Ginger hair, Brown and red clothing)
• Shanoa (Purple outfit, Black hair)
  

Richter's Colors

• Default
• Red (possibly the rival from bloodletting or Christopher as mentioned in the article)
• Purple (Cornell?)
• Green (Slow effect as mentioned in the article)
• Yellow (John Morris as mentioned in the article)
• Blue (possibly Charlotte Aulin or Peke)
• Black (Alucard Again)
• White (Possibly Soma Cruz based)
  

those are at least my thoughts on it BlueLeo (talk) 20:34, 4 November 2018 (EST)

Big Castlevania fan here, I think Richter's Green alt is actually referencing the Lords of Shadow incarnation of Trevor Belmont and/or Victor Belmont from LoS 2, both of who wear green. His red outfit is definitely Christopher. Also I think his yellow outfit may actually be Trevor from the US boxart of Castlevania 3 (yellow/gold armor and a red cape, represented by the red headband here).

As for Simon, his yellow/gold alt is based in his appearance in the American boxart for Super Castlevania 4 and his blue alt (appearance 5) is based on the Japanese boxart of the same game. I agree that appearance 4 is Juste and appearance 6 is Cornell. I was going to add all this info to the page but it's been locked UnReverie (talk) 23:00, 4 November 2018 (EST)

Seovania's note : I pretty much agree and found the same references overall. The only thing I'd add is that Richter's green costume seems to be a Maria reference, as it has some yellow edges on it.

Red Richter also seemed to be the Rival from the Bloodletting, either that or Jonathan Morris (although one might say it's not the same kind of red.)

The other Blue Richter might also simply be a Dracula X Chronicles reference, but I like the idea of it being a Charlotte reference more.

In fact I had a whole theory going with Simon mostly referencing Belmonts whereas Richter would reference non-Belmont important characters.

Last thing I'll add is that I found Simon's last costume might be a reference to Hector Devil Forgemaster, from Curse of Darkness.

ah yeah, I'd forgotten about the box arts containing different recolours for Simon and the others, and I've played more rondo than symphony, so I forget about maria's symphony design sometimes.

I'd also let the LoS and Ps2 games slip my mind when checking through it, haven't actually played LoS, mostly played the classics and been trying out the post SotN games

Regarding Simon, I mainly don't think that the yellow/gold one is based on the US box art of CV4 because of the hair color change, it's changed to be a quite pale blonde, and there's a fair amount of black in his color scheme. I agree the blue one is probably Richter and/or the CV4 japanese box art.

The yellow recolor of Richter could very well be based on Trevor, but I don't think they'd base it off of US box art, considering he's got a far more recognizable design in this art and the Curse of Darkness design

I also brought up the Rival from the cancelled game simply because it was something neat and more closely tied to Richter that could be related to the colors, it's just nice to see what possible correlations there are I guess BlueLeo (talk) 04:54, 8 November 2018 (EST)

Just to add a few more Richter reference possibilities: His red outfit could reference Maria as she appeared in her red dress in Rondo of Blood. Purple could be "Shaft", the antagonist from Rondo of Blood and Symphony of the Night (his sprites are very purple). Richter's yellow costume could be Julius Belmont, who wears a yellow vest and a red scarf around his neck. His second blue costume could be a reference to his appearance in Symphony of the Night, where the inner lining of his jacket is gray (like in the costume).

Should also note that someone on the main costume page got Simon's "Orange" and "Red" references backwards. "Orange" should be his Simon's Quest appearance while "Red" should be referencing his Castlevania sprite (note the brown hair). Pyitoechito (talk) 15:32, 8 November 2018 (EST)

About the "Red" recolor, I really don't think it's referencing his Castlevania Sprite, considering the outfit is colored a dark red and an orange, while his hair is a completely different tone, if it were referencing the CV1 sprite the hair would be matching the darker colour, and if it were CV2's sprite it'd be entirely different, the main reason I think that it's based on Julius is because of the Juste recolor, they based his colors on the sprite, including the purple outline on him, Julius' sprite matches to the color scheme pretty closely I think. Though I could be wrong, I don't really see it being the CV1 sprite of simon (Julius' Sprite)

I don't think that Richter's yellow costume references Julius though, considering Julius' main color is the brown. I also don't think the purple is shaft because of the lack of any green (Shaft's secondary color) on the recolor, though the blue one could be based on SotN for sure. BlueLeo (talk) 03:03, 12 November 2018 (EST)

To me, Simon's "Orange" recolor bears striking similarities to his appearance on the CV2 box art. Blonde hair and red armor with gold accents. Maybe "Red" doesn't reference his CV1 sprites, but "Orange" definitely looks a lot like his CV2 box art appearance. Also of note is that the "Red" costume has Simon's brown hair very closely matching his brown shoulder guards. Pyitoechito (talk) 13:14, 13 November 2018 (EST)

As I have already stated on the article, Simon's yellow alt is actually his appearance on the Western Super Castlevania IV box, with the purple one being based on his in-game appearance in Vampire Killer, and the Blue one actually being how he looks in Super Castlevania IV. The last one looks more like how Simon appears in Haunted Castle. As for Richter, all of them are actually from Harmony of Despair. However, the Green one is the curse effect from both Dracula X games, the Yellow one is indeed based on John Morris's concept art. But for the Cyan and Black ones, both are from the Dracula X games; Cyan is his suit shown in the opening sequence of RoB, and Black is sourced from the monochromatic ending stills from SNES Dracula X. The Purple and White ones don't reference anyone, as they are from HD. --Tailikku (talk) 00:22, 18 November 2018 (EST)

I definitely agree that Simon's "orange" is based on CV2 boxart. 71.203.64.176 16:57, 22 November 2018 (EST)

Fixed for you. --Tailikku (talk) 23:28, 24 November 2018 (EST)

I honestly can't see how this is a reference to the CV2 boxart considering even his hair's color was changed, and that it matches Julius's color scheme way much more than this but okay...

I don't know which one you're talking about, but Simon's second palette is definitely a reference to CV2. Made obvious especially with the gold trim on his armor and his white boots. https://youtu.be/ROd0H43R78I?t=278 --Master Foot (talk) 00:19, 6 December 2018 (EST)

His in-game appearance in Vampire Killer looks red, not purple. --Master Foot (talk) 00:19, 6 December 2018 (EST)

I agree that Simon color #3 probably isn't referencing the Western CV4 boxart seeing as how it's a lot darker than the bright yellow armor in the artwork. Also, I added Cornell to the page. Simon's black alt could also be referencing Shanoa, but I'm not sure. --Master Foot (talk) 23:52, 29 November 2018 (EST)

Looking closer, I think the color scheme of Richter's black alt could be referencing Alucard as well. But I'll leave it the way it is for now in case anyone has any objections. Same with Simon's "Shanoa" color. --Master Foot (talk) 18:16, 7 December 2018 (EST)

It's not a reference to Shanoa, it's a reference to Vampire Killer. And no, it's not red, it's actually mauve, with the black hair coming from the dark gray outlines to the graphics. --Tailikku (talk) 01:10, 10 December 2018 (EST)

Dark Samus

I found HQ versions of Dark Samus’s alts - on a Facebook post of all things. See here Aykrivwassup (talk) 17:04, 20 November 2018 (EST)

I think the Yellow Dark Samus Alt is based on SA-X from Metroid Fusion. Like Dark Samus it as well is a clone of Samus. Mudkip971 (talk) 22:57, 20 November 2018 (EST)

Hi, don't have an account but wanted to chime in -

Dark Samus's Gold costume is almost certainly meant to be a reference to the Golden Torizo from Super Metroid, right down to the blue accents:

-Narmot

Golden Torizo definitely looks like a likely possibility for the gold costume. I'm also wondering if her black costume may have been inspired by this concept artwork of Dark Samus from Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, considering that her silver costume greatly resembles another piece of concept art from the same game. --PeabodySam (talk) 18:50, 4 December 2018 (EST)

HD better images of the Alt costumes

Over here => https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzaXw_91bAE -- WolfgerLynel (talk) 21:32, 20 November 2018 (EST)

We are very close to the game’s launch. I would suggest we just wait to use the in-game assets (like with previous titles) for the alt images. Nintendo101 (talk) 21:51, 20 November 2018 (EST)

Full body references

For things we can't tell just from the shoulders up, or that are slightly different in game than in the artwork: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROd0H43R78I Furballcan (talk) 02:54, 23 November 2018 (EST)

Ike

It could be said that the Purple alt for Ike may resemble Micaiah, from FE: Radiant Dawn [here], or Katarina, from FE: New Mystery of the Emblem [here]. They're both main characters in their respective instalments.

Blessedvolty (talk) 12:39, 25 November 2018 (EST)

The Red Ike is based on the Red Team Ike color in Brawl that was just his default colors with a red tint, making them look purple. It predates Katarina, and doesn't really resemble Micaiah since it has a red and yellow cape instead of a blue one to reference her scarf. Furballcan (talk) 11:05, 28 November 2018 (EST)

Made an account for this because it was bugging me that it wasn't listed. The purple Ike alt is definitely based on Katarina from Fire Emblem: New Mystery of the Emblem. If you look at Katarina's official artwork and the purple Ike alt, the colors on the shirt and scarf match pretty much perfectly. I can't edit the page yet but I just wanted to make this known for anyone who can. CombatRobot (talk) 13:50, 4 December 2018 (EST)

Mewtwo's Alternate Costumes

Majority of the alternate costumes for Mewtwo have little to no reference to anything else. However, both the Cyan and Blue skin do have their reasons.

• Cyan (or Green) Mewtwo is a reference to it's shiny palette swap.
• Blue could also be a reference to Mewtwo's second costume in Pokken Tournament.

The cyan color is more blue than green for it to resemble its shint, and I would contend that its cyan color more closely resembles its alt from Pokkén than the blue one. VoqéoT 19:01, 30 November 2018 (EST)

Richter's Alternate Colors

Hello, I am a Smash Bros. fan, and a HUGE Castlevania fan, as well. As I was browsing the alternate colors for the different characters, I came upon Richter's and couldn't help but criticize the color origins listed. I will do my best to state what I think the colors are referencing and back my claims with present evidence.

1. Richter's default costume: Do I even need to say it?

2. Richter's 2nd costume: Red shirt, White edges on shirt, Normal undershirt, White leather gloves, White pants, Black boots. This costume has been said to be a reference to either Christopher Belmont, or the rival from the cancelled Bloodletting, but I cannot see that at all. What I see, however, is a reference to Juste Belmont. Juste Belmont's character has been depicted as wearing a Red shirt with White edges, Black undershirt, White gloves, White Pants, and Black Boots. The part that gets me to believe it is Juste is the color of the boots. When so many of Richter's alternate costumes change the color of the boots, why wouldn't the color change to light brown to reference Christopher in Rebirth or the rival from Bloodletting? The fact that they are Black boots in particular sells me on it being Juste Belmont.

3. Richter's 3rd costume: Purple shirt, Greyish-Black undershirt, White gloves, Black pants, and Yellow Purple and Black boots. Not quite sure who this may be referencing, or at least, it is not as clear as the other costumes. It's anyone's guess, really...

4. Richter's 4th costume: Green shirt, Gold edges on shirt, Normal undershirt, Grey pants, and Dark-Brown boots with Light Brown coverings. This costume is listed on the wiki as being the "Curse effect from Rondo of Blood." However, and this is very clear, I am sure it is referencing Maria Renard as she appears in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, where she wears a Green tunic with Golden-colored cuffs. She also wears socks that are greyish-white and shoes that are light brown in color.

5. Richter's 5th costume: Yellow shirt, Brown edges on shirt, Red undershirt, Blue pants, Brown boots. Now this one seems to be the most controversial; many people believe it is a reference to John Morris, and others believe it is Julius Belmont. I am one who believes it is Julius based on a few factors. It is true that both Julius and John wear Blue jeans and have brown boots, and it is also true that John Morris wears a Red headband in many pieces of official artwork for Bloodlines. However, John Morris has never been depicted in official artwork wearing a yellow shirt, especially a yellow shirt with dark brown. He has always been depicted wearing brown, sweater-type clothing, with a white shirt to go underneath. John is also depicted with either red or black suspenders. Julius, on the other hand, is depicted in Dawn of Sorrow, to have a Yellow shirt, Brown Jacket, Red handkerchief, Blue jeans, and Brown boots. The Brown jacket and Yellow shirt looking nearly identical in color to Richter's Yellow shirt with Brown edges.

6. Richter's 6th costume: Blue shirt, White edges and insides of shirt, White undershirt, White pants, Brown boots with Blue around the ankles and Tan flaps. This is an extremely obvious costume referencing Richter's appearance in the official artwork of Symphony of the Night. Clarifications should not have to be made.

7. Richter's 7th costume: Blackish shirt, Gold edges on shirt, Grey undershirt, Dark Grey pants, Dark Brown boots with white around the ankles. This is also a costume that can be referencing many things, but I believe that this is referencing Alucard's Symphony of the Night appearance, especially with the golden edges, but it, to me, is very vague.

8. Richter's 8th costume: White shirt, Red edges on shirt, Black undershirt, Black pants, Black boots with White coverings and Tan flaps. I have heard many things about this costume, whether or not it's Juste or Soma. I do not believe it is Juste since Juste does not wear Black pants and since Juste wears more Red than white in his official art. I REALLY do not think it is Soma, since Soma's color scheme is White coat, Black sweater, Blue jeans, and the fact that Soma is never depicted wearing anything with the color Red. I, however, believe it is a lovely reference to the one who started it all, Leon Belmont. Just look at the similarities in color; Leon wears a Black, long sleeve undershirt with a shirt that is White and has Red on the edges of it. Leon's pants are also Black and striped with white, and his Black boots have Light-Tan flaps and White coverings around the vamps. This is nearly one-to-one with Richter's 8th costume.

104.136.71.9 23:07, 30 November 2018 (EST) An avid Castlevania fan, and a dedicated Richter main, OliviérBaguette.

The first thing the 3rd costume reminded me of was Richter's design from the unreleased 32X game, which I added to the article. The only difference is he has a dark purple coat instead of a dark blue one, but it's closer to that than anything else from Castlevania I can think of. --Master Foot (talk) 19:16, 1 December 2018 (EST)

Is there any way that the main article can be updated so to correspond with the new outfit colors rather than the older ones? If not that's okay.

104.136.71.9 16:27, 4 December 2018 (EST) OliviérBaguette

You can add them yourself, though I personally wouldn't remove anything somebody else wrote. --Master Foot (talk) 00:35, 6 December 2018 (EST)

Yeah, no. As a huge fan of Castlevania myself, not a single one of them are a reference to Juste, Maria, Soma, or Alucard, as most of them are references to Richter's appearances in other games or Richter-like designs. Zombie Trevor does not count since he's literally a zombie mimicking Trevor Belmont, and the real Trevor wears brown (this can be seen when using the Greatest Five Dual Crush in Portrait of Ruin). And there is also the fact that Richter's outfit in Symphony has the same exact shade of blue as in Rondo. The Julius connection is completely out there, as John's is a closeer match to Richter's outfit since the artwork used for him in the Japanese manual for Bloodlines (known as Vampire Killer) has John wearing a red bandana (it appears blue ingame but red in the intro as well) as well as a more orange shirt as well. And for that matter, it's not a sweater that Johnny boy is wearing, it's a plain white tee with a vest over it, mainly to show off his biceps and just how everything is bigger in Texas. --Tailikku (talk) 20:18, 4 December 2018 (EST)

Don't worry, I do not believe that the white one references Soma, either. (I said it looked similar to the color scheme of Leon's official artwork) However, most of the others are extremely similar to the ones that I have pointed out. I said I was not too sure about the black outfit being Alucard or the Purple outfit being anything but the 32X design since its the only thing I, and many others, were able to find that were close enough to them. If you could tell me what costumes reference "Richter-like" designs that would be nice. The only one I've noticed was Richter's 6th color, which you can see on the main article as having an identical color scheme to his SoTN appearance. Thanks - P.S. Im using this video that displays the alternate costumes from head to toe. P.P.S If this is the image of John Morris that you were referring to, or even this one of him whipping down, then answer these: Why would Richter's costume use a Red undershirt instead of a White one to reference John's White shirt underneath his Brown vest? Why would Richter's costume use a Yellow tunic with Brown outlines to reference John's Yellow pants and Brown vest? Why would Richter's costume use Blue pants along with the other colors, especially Yellow? Perhaps Richter's color is combining both John's official and in-game appearances? Or maybe, JUST maybe, Richter's costume is directly referencing Julius' official artwork? If the costume is referencing others based on all direct colors and places of those colors, then the ONLY thing DIRECTLY referencing John has to be Richter's red headband. Everything else from the neck downwards directly references the colors of Julius AND exactly where you can find those colors on Julius' official artwork. The Red undershirt referencing Julius' Red handkerchief that he wears around his neck or even Julius' red undershirt, which I am now just noticing exists; The Yellow tunic with Brown outlines referencing Julius' Yellow shirt with Brown coat; the Blue pants referencing Julius' Blue jeans; and the Brown boots referencing Julius' Brown boots. From this, you can see that there is more evidence pointing to Julius Belmont than John Morris. 104.136.71.9 16:41, 5 December 2018 (EST)OliviérBaguette

I beleive you helped back up my claim that it is John and not Julius. Especially since Julius is more brown than the rest of the Belmonts, descendants included, with that trenchcoat of his. If they wanted it to be based on Julius, they would have made it a brown costume and not a yellow one. Also, thanks for reusing the artwork I had already linked to the main article, which also backs up my claim. --Tailikku (talk) 21:14, 5 December 2018 (EST)

Actually, it's pretty convincing to me. Aside from the main color being yellow and not brown, there does seem to be more similarities to Dawn of Sorrow Julius than John. But the main color is still pretty important. Also, since Christopher also has a yellow color scheme with a red headband, it could be a reference to more than one thing (possibly all three). --Master Foot (talk) 00:35, 6 December 2018 (EST)

Congratulations on using outdated artwork of Chris to back up your claim about it being based on him. Especially since the artwork used on the cover is also used in Belmont's Revenge and in ReBirth, which are predominantly red. The artwork used was colored by a fan more than 20 years ago. --Tailikku (talk) 09:15, 13 December 2018 (EST)

Finally, the actual images are in on the main article. Now we can directly compare the Costumes to different Castlevania characters. I am still holding on to my beliefs mentioned at the beginning as to what the costumes reference. Here comes Smash Ultimate! P.S. Getting a better look at Richter's 3rd costume, the purple one, it looks to have a greenish undershirt, and the boots seem to be yellowish with a hint a green. If this were to reference anyone, this may just be Shaft's Rondo of Blood appearance, which has a Purple, Green, and Gold color scheme. Man, I love speculating this stuff!104.136.71.9 00:14, 9 December 2018 (EST) OliviérBaguette

Going back to Richter's second blue outfit, it is probably not a reference to SotN, since while he may have new artwork for the game, only appearing in dialogues and for a few seconds in the Coliseum and in Maria's thought bubble, Richter's appearance in the game is consistent throughout: it's the old Rondo of Blood design. As I have stated on the main page, it is actually taken from one of his outfits in Harmony of Despair.--Tailikku (talk) 09:15, 13 December 2018 (EST)

Incineroar's alt colours

Incineroar's "yellow" alt is based off Scrafty, another Dark-type Pokemon, not Infernape. The mark on Incineroar's head and its eyebrows are red like Scrafty's mohawk in the official renders. In addition to this the skin is primarily orange, a colour not present in Infernape's design (even the flames are only red/yellow.) Rocket1908 (talk) 07:52, 2 December 2018 (EST)

There is no red on that skin. Scrafty's hands and feet aren't blue, nor is there any blue present. Also, no orange on Infernape? Seriously? Wazzup111 (talk) 12:03, 2 December 2018 (EST)

The hands are more black/grey than blue. If you look closely at the head, you will notice that the eyebrows are actually a darker, more red shade as opposed to the rest of the body which is orange. Please show me where the orange is consistently in Infernape's design - in its simplest form, the fire is always red and yellow, meaning there isn't any orange outside of gradients in more detailed models. You could argue that it isn't Scrafty because of the supposedly "blue hands" but by the same logic Infernape is instantly ruled out by the primarily orange body.

Rocket1908 (talk) 00:20, 3 December 2018 (EST)

It's definitely a navy blue. The color looks nothing like the black present on Scrafty. If you're arguing that Incineroar's eyebrows are a very faintly different shade of oran-I-I mean red, then would ya look at that: Infernape's "uninbrow" is red. Also, do you not see Infernape's arms? His legs? His tail? His head? His ears? I even went into Photoshop and checked that the colors are orange, and they are. Going back to the Incineroar skin, his arms and legs are striped with orange and yellow, and the fur making up his abs are yellow just like how there's only yellow on the white of Infernape's chest. So what are you even talking about with "primarily orange body"? Do you even know what the color orange looks like? Wazzup111 (talk) 20:07, 2 December 2018 (EST)

Infernape is clearly brown. The pre-evolutions may be orange, but Infernape itself is brown. Not sure how you're seeing orange on him. The chest on the Incineroar skin is also grey, not white. You can tell because Incineroar's "shiny" skin with white uses a much lighter colour for the actual white parts.

Rocket1908 (talk) 22:57, 2 December 2018 (EST)

Just for the record, here is an image of Infernape's model from Pokemon Battle Revolution. That definitely looks orange to me. --PeabodySam (talk) 23:06, 2 December 2018 (EST)

To be fair that's one model from a decade-old Wii game. More recent and consistent portrayals from the main games, anime, TCG and other spin-off material are clearly tan/brown. I doubt that the inspiration for this alternate colour is from one cherrypicked portrayal of a Pokemon that isn't the base Pokemon (some Pokemon do use official non-shiny alternate colours that originate from Stadium or old sprites, but only their own), especially when the shade of orange is better matched to Scrafty's orange than the PBR Infernape colour anyway. The skin definitely isn't Infernape.

Rocket1908 (talk) 00:20, 3 December 2018 (EST)

You are absolutely grasping at straws. You're ignoring the fact that there is no red or black on the skin and only basing it on how there is orange and yellow. Also, Infernape's model in Smash 4 is orange. Wazzup111 (talk) 16:33, 4 December 2018 (EST)

Grasping at straws? You're using inconsistent non-canon portrayals to support your argument. The main series Pokemon games, the official artwork, the anime, Pokemon Go, the trading card game and multiple other spinoffs are all brown. Even in Smash 4 with the proper shading and lighting, Infernape is actually brown. The official render for Incineroar's alt 5 actually does have red in the exact same spot of its head as Scrafty, and has the grey on the abdomen, just like Scrafty. And I know you're gonna come back and say something about the black-blue hands, but remember that you said yourself in the edit notes of the article "the slightest difference between white and grey does not outweigh the rest of the similarities", just like the slighest difference between black and black-blue doesn't outweigh actual similarities. Even the orange versions of Infernape are not the same shade of orange as the skin... multiple people have reversed your edit already, please stop. So as you would say, you are absolutely grasping at straws. I understand you might not agree with what is elsewhere the general consensus of the skin's origin, but you cannot seriously still insist that the orange and grey are supposed to be Infernape's brown and white.

Rocket1908 (talk) 00:06, 5 December 2018 (EST)

Reference

I've been pretty neutral about this debate, but since it seems to heating up a bit, once again I'd like to show something just for the record:

This is directly comparing the color palettes of Incineroar's costume, Infernape, and Scrafty. I think looking at this shows that Incineroar's costume isn't actually all that far off from Infernape; the colors on his chest and claws are closer to white and blue than they are to gray. In fact, overall, it's actually closer to Infernape's colors than Scrafty's colors (with the sole exception of orange), with the most damning evidence being that there's no Scrafty color corresponding to Incineroar's dark blue. Additionally, seeing all three Pokemon lined up like this, I think the color composition (where each color is found on each Pokemon) is closer between Incineroar and Infernape than Incineroar and Scrafty. Right now, while I still don't feel strongly one way or another, I think the Infernape argument has more weight to it than the Scrafty argument. --PeabodySam (talk) 16:49, 5 December 2018 (EST)

Alright, I'll try to look at it in comparison to Scrafty. So the torso is gray, okay. But Scrafty's torso is a dark grey, while Incineroar's is a significantly lighter gray. And onto the hands, I took the eyedropper tool to it and it is in fact a shade of blue. Where do you see navy blue on Scrafty? Where do you see a light gray on Scrafty? I guess Infernape is a bit more on the brown side, but at first glance, I think a lot of people would agree that it's orange. The Smash 4 model, the pre-evolutions, it would make sense. Though if you really want concrete points, the sprites are more on the orange side (again checked with eyedropper tool). Even if the colors aren't 1-to-1, they match up better with Infernape than Scrafty. I don't think my idea is much of a problem, considering only 1 person made a revision that I counterpointed. If it were a real problem, how come mods haven't told me to stop editing it? How come you, a user who only made an account just to argue that a skin looks like Scrafty, are the only person arguing it in the discussions? You are the only one seeing this as a problem. In the end, it's only a skin. Wazzup111 (talk) 17:25, 5 December 2018 (EST)

You've changed from grey and white not being different enough to discount the other "similarities" to using the specific shade of grey as an argument, and then in the same paragraph also tried to tell me the specific shade of orange doesn't matter because it's "close enough?" You are deliberately being inconsistent just to make it fit your narrative. And what eyedropper tool are you using? those sprites and models are objectively brown. You picked two of the least orange versions of Infernape and you're trying to claim your magic eyedropper says they're orange. I really don't care whether or not you agree with me on the Scrafty thing, but you cannot keep claiming that Infernape is the inspiration when the primary colour of the skin is not at all present on the Pokemon you're trying to claim it references. There's either something wrong with your eyedropper or your eyes, because I used two different programs with colour pickers, and both gave me the same shades of brown.

Also Peabody, the official Sugimori artwork always uses washed-out colours especially looking at it in comparison with the sprites, anime, Dream World art, merchandise and Smash, so you'd be better off using sprites or DW art for a more accurate palette. Plus, your colour selections weren't from the most neutrally lit parts of the model, especially the grey where it looks like you picked from the belly right near where the fire belt affects the lighting as opposed to a neutrally lit grey spot like the head or near the shoulders.

The main point is, it definitely cannot be Infernape because Infernape isn't orange. And if you want to get pedantic about shades, Infernape's blue isn't navy, and the torso is grey, not white. That, and the main colour not matching is a pretty big detail that's being overlooked here. No matter which way you cut it, it's not Infernape.

Rocket1908 (talk) 07:36, 6 December 2018 (EST)

Just so you know, I went out of my way to pick colors in spots that were neither the brightest-lit nor the darkest-shaded for my reference. I didn't pick a very brightly-lit gray from his belly near his fire belt; I picked it from his pectoral muscle, where it was far enough away from both his belt and the shadows cast on his shoulders/ribcage to get a good idea of what was a more neutral shade.

Allow me to play Devil's Advocate for a moment. Captain Falcon's third costume is based on Blood Falcon, but Blood Falcon doesn't have bright purple gloves/helmet/boots or a lime green scarf. Link's fourth costume is based on Fierce Deity, but Fierce Deity's tunic/hat are a much, much lighter shade of blue compared to the costume's dark teal. Samus's third costume is based on the Gravity Suit from Super Metroid, but the suit doesn't have a blue visor in that game.

My point? Alternate costumes are rarely 1:1 with their source of inspiration. So, if Incineroar's color palette features an orange that is a bit too bright or a gray that isn't quite the right shade, that's not enough to immediately disqualify it. Looking at the overall costume (especially now that we can see that the feet are also colored dark blue, and keep in mind that this is the only Incineroar alt where the hands and feet are colored differently from the arms and legs; that's pretty significant) it still seems to me that the overall color composition resembles Infernape just a bit too much to dismiss it as a mere coincidence. It's not just what colors are used; it's how they are used.

Clearly, the rest of SmashWiki either agrees that it resembles Infernape, or is apathetic enough to keep it on the page. As Wazzup111 said, you're the only one insisting that it doesn't resemble Infernape. --PeabodySam (talk) 10:29, 11 December 2018 (EST)

Obviously not because three people total have undone it. It's you two who keep re-doing it. I don't know why it's been allowed especially with poor evidence on your end. Rocket1908 (talk) 21:16, 11 December 2018 (EST)

It's mainly because we did not come to a consensus for your point yet, and thus should still stay, especially since both Peabody and Wazzup agree that it's not Scrafty and is most likely Infernape. When something hasn't come to a consensus, you don't change it. SugarCookie420 (talk) 21:24, 11 December 2018 (EST)

If I may, it does not seem like a consensus in regards to either side has been reached, as neither side has a sufficient amount of "consensus" to make it seem as though it has been agreed upon (do learn what consensus means). I will be removing the information for now, but not because I side with the side that says it is not (and, for the record, I do not side with the other half of this discussion). I will also be protecting the page until a consensus can be reached, as the edit warring cannot be ignored. Please try to have a civil discussion that does not result in personal attacks. Aidan, the Festive Rurouni 21:29, 11 December 2018 (EST)

I would say that it lines up with Infernape, not Scrafty. Per PeabodySam's image reference, I think that it more closely resembles Infernape. Corrin Fan 21:46, 11 December 2018 (EST)

I think everyone has forgotten to address the fact that the colour picked from the grey section of the body in that image is not an accurate reflection of the skin. I've done another comparison using the original one myself even using the washed out Sugimori art here, citing where I've picked the colours from so you can test it yourself. The two are fairly even on the grounds of yellow and red, and while colour 5 does suit Infernape more (i used the grey again so there was at least something to compare it to - some parts of the hand did return a more grey colour but they were not used), colours 1 and 3 are much more suited to Scrafty. In addition to this, I feel as though if the skin was deliberately based on Infernape, it would use the intended brown colour for the top of the head and snout and the intended white colour for the whiskers (these type of changes are not impossible or farfetched - Incineroar's Green and Purple skins do change the colours of the head/whiskers in a similar way). I feel like it is much less likely to Infernape considering the orange body. Rocket1908 (talk) 22:35, 11 December 2018 (EST)

Thank you, Aidanzapunk. Now, hopefully, we can continue to discuss this civilly.

I do not wish to continue spending so much time in this debate. Therefore, I shall compile all my evidence into a single argument. I have bolded some of my main points for emphasis.

The main argument against Infernape lies in there being a significant distinction between the orange and light brown. But where does that distinction truly lie? Wazzup and I have provided examples of Infernape where its color appears closer to orange than brown, showing that there is precedence for orange in Infernape's color scheme. I've also argued that, at a cursory glance, Infernape's shade of light brown is close enough to orange that it can be considered a dark shade of orange.

Therefore, I would like to draw your attention to this particular image. This is a screenshot from LEGO Digital Designer, an official piece of software that renders LEGO bricks in nearly every color that they have been physically produced in. I have five colors lined up. Look at the picture, and answer this question: which colors are orange, and which ones are brown?

The answer? It's a trick question. All five colors in this image are officially classified as orange by The LEGO Group: "Earth Orange", "Dark Orange", "Bright Orange", "Bright Yellowish Orange", and "Flame Yellowish Orange". LEGO does have its fair share of colors classified as brown, but none of these fall into that category. As far as LEGO is concerned, these are all different shades of orange.

Now, obviously, LEGO and Nintendo are two different companies, and my point isn't "LEGO Does What Nintendon't"... my point is to illustrate that the distinction between light brown and dark orange is not a clear distinct line. With that in mind, what color is Infernape? Can we really say it's definitely brown and not a dark orange? And if it's a dark orange, then is a lighter shade of orange really outside the margin of error?

Similarly, there is the argument that Incineroar's costume uses gray, not white. That is true. But how gray is gray? That seems like a silly question to ask, but it matters greatly because the lighting and shading on Incineroar's artwork makes it difficult to determine how light or dark it really is. Is it really dark gray, or does it just look that way because of the shadows? If we judged Infernape's color palette based on the parts where there is shadow (such as below its head or on its lower legs), we'd say that was gray too.

So now, we have five colors prominently featured in Incineroar's palette: orange, light gray, yellow, dark blue, red. There are also five colors in Infernape's palette (compared to Scrafty's four): dark orange, white, yellow, dark blue, red. As I've said, despite the differing shades of orange and gray, their differences are not so distinct. At a cursory glance, their color palettes are similar enough to resemble one another.

As I stated before, there is some discrepancy in the color palettes of the costumes that are officially stated as being based on specific sources (sometimes in drastic cases, such as Blood Falcon), let alone the ones that we speculate as "resembling" a particular source. The colors rarely match up 1:1, so we have allowed some leniency in the past. Shadow Lugia doesn't have a purple tail, but we still say that Mewtwo's eighth costume resembles it because it's close enough. Selene doesn't have light green pants, a teal backpack, an orange hat, etc. but we still say that Pokemon Trainer's eighth costume resembles her because it's close enough. The list goes on. It's one of many reasons why we must say "resembling" instead of "based on" when we don't have an official source.

Finally, let us look at all the places where the color composition matches. This, I feel, is the most important part of the costume's similarity. For the sake of simplicity, I'll refer to orange/brown as "orange" and white/gray as "white".

• Their foreheads are white.
• Their eyebrows are red.
• They have additional red on their foreheads (Infernape's fire, Infernape's pattern).
• They both have formations on the side of their heads (ears on Infernape, whiskers on Incineroar) that are orange.
• They both have dark blue somewhere on their heads (Infernape's inner ears, Incineroar's upper jaw); other than their hands and feet, this is the only other place where dark blue is found.
• From the waist up, their torsos are predominantly white.
• Their shoulders are yellow.
• Their arms are (at least partially) orange, but are yellow near the wrists.
• Their hands are dark blue.
• Their waists, thighs, and beginning of tails are orange.
• Their kneecaps are yellow.
• Their feet are dark blue.
• Their tails are (at least partially) orange.

One last thing. I cannot stress enough the fact that this is Incineroar's only costume where its hands and feet are a different color from its arms and legs. Based on any other Incineroar costume, the hands and feet should be orange with this color scheme. But they're not; instead, they're a color that is used very sparingly in this particular color composition. What does that tell you? Do you think this unique trait is significant?

That is all I have to say. Thank you for taking your time to fully read and consider what I have written. Good night. --PeabodySam (talk) 23:23, 11 December 2018 (EST)

Are you seriously going to argue over the lines of what is or isn't orange or grey? It's not that complicated. We have Infernape's brown, the orange-ish Infernape in the PBR model, and Incineroar's orange. They're all different colours. Plus, the XY-on model you used is still brown. When properly rendered in Smash 4, Infernape is brown (look at these images of its appearance on Kalos Pokemon League.) There is a very big difference between small details such as the colour of a boot or a belt VS the most prominent colour on the model. What reason would they have to make it orange if it was Infernape? They could easily have made it the much more commonly used brown - it doesn't conflict with any of the other Incineroar skins. The fact that brown is commonly accepted as being far enough removed from orange as far as the classification of basic colours is concerned shoots down the idea of Infernape being "dark orange". Hell, no one on any of the Pokemon wikis has argued Infernape has being anything but brown - for TWELVE YEARS he has been accepted as being brown. As I said, there would be more obvious ways to alter the colours to resemble Infernape. And as for the "what is grey" argument, here is the stock icon for this alt - you can clearly see it's intended to be grey by looking at the head VS the tooth. It makes very little sense to reference a specific version of a Pokemon from a spinoff game, especially when even that version of Infernape isn't even CLOSE to the shade of orange. I want to emphasise that if they really did intend it to be Infernape, the primary colour of the body would match a lot better than it currently does.

I am asbolutely happy to concede and settle for neither being the inspiration of the skin. But I cannot see it being Infernape considering 4/5 of colours match to Scrafty as opposed to Infernape's 3/5, plus the orange/grey factors again. The "intentional" placement of shoulder and knee pads based on what is intended to be a striped design does not have much weight, especially when all the skins of the character in the game have this striping. Anyway, Scrafty matches with the red on the top of the head being parallel to its mohawk, the placement of grey on the head and abdomen matching its eyelids and belly, and the use of its most prominent colours in orange and yellow on the limbs, the yellow on the spiky shoulders possibly being a reference to Scrafty's hood. I feel as though the presence of one extra colour does not hold more weight in discrediting it than the absense of brown and white discredit the Infernape argument. So I would say that it is more like Scrafty. If you are prepared to reject the possibility of it being Scrafty, surely you would also reject the possibility of it being Infernape based on this. In addition to the orange and grey conflicts, the navy blue colour is a very dark, almost black shade, especially on the mouth. It even appears more black on the aforementioned stock icon. While I concede it is more likely a better match for Infernape, I doubt the possibility of it being added purely to resemble Infernape especially considering the other major differences. I'll repeat one more time as I want to emphasise there would be no reason to make the primary colour orange instead of a much better matching brown had they intended it to be Infernape. Rocket1908 (talk) 00:46, 12 December 2018 (EST)

Yes, I am seriously making this argument. Before you removed the Infernape reference and started an edit war, we were unable to reach a proper consensus here on the talk page because we kept going around in a circle. Wazzup says, "It looks orange." You say, "No, it's brown." I say, "It looks orange to me too." You say, "No, it's brown!" Round and round in a circle. And that's when I realized what the problem is.

The difference between orange and brown isn't black and white, like you make it out to be. This is actually rabbit and duck. What you see as light brown, I (and Wazzup, and others too) see as dark orange... and in actuality, it can be seen either way without necessarily being incorrect, because as I illustrated above with the LEGO colors and their official names, there is no clear distinction between light brown and dark orange. The problem is that you keep insisting that this image is a duck, can only be seen as a duck, anyone who says it's a rabbit is wrong, and any evidence that shows it as a rabbit doesn't count for arbitrary reasons.

That Kalos Pokemon League image, for example? You're probably using the eyedropper on a darkly-shaded part of Infernape (e.g. the thighs) and declaring that it's brown. I'm using the eyedropper on a more well-lit part of Infernape and seeing a color that I would describe as orange. The same would hold true for the Tepig next to Infernape. It's also true for the Incineroar alt: if you use the eyedropper on the darkly-shaded areas, of course you're going to say that it looks brown.

The head icon is not a reliable source for determining the costume's colors. It uses brown for the eyebrows and black for the muzzle, when they are red and dark blue respectively.

The reason I bring up the Blood Falcon costume is because the boots, shoulder pad, helmet, gloves, and scarf add up. Individually, they're "just accessories" like you say they are, but remember that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Altogether, they make up about a third of the overall color composition, and more than half of the color palette. Dark red is literally the only "correct" color in the Blood Falcon costume, and even then it's not quite the right shade of dark red. The differences between Blood Falcon and Captain Falcon's costume are no less noticeable or significant than the differences between Infernape and Incineroar's costume. Using your argument, there should be no reason why the devs wouldn't use Blood Falcon's correct colors. And yet we still say that it is based upon Blood Falcon because Sakurai said so, and that tells us that the colors do not have to match perfectly to say that a costume resembles something.

So why use bright orange instead of a more matching dark orange or light brown? I can't answer that, anymore than I can answer why Blood Falcon uses bright purple and lime green instead of dark blue, silver, and yellow. Maybe the devs simply thought it looked better that way. Or maybe the devs were looking at the SSB4 Infernape model as reference and thought it was orange. Who knows? That's neither here nor there, though.

But please stop using Scrafty as your counterargument (especially if you've already conceded on it being the costume's source), because it really just undermines your own argument. You say that light gray is too different from Infernape's white, yet you're fine saying that it perfectly matches Scrafty's dark gray. You insist that orange/brown and gray/white (colors that resemble one another) disqualify Infernape, yet you are willing to handwave dark blue (a color with no direct correlation in Scrafty's palette) as similar to dark gray in order to feed your narrative saying that Scrafty is the better match. Just let it go, man.

Yes, the limbs are striped orange and yellow, but where the orange and yellow are placed isn't arbitrary at all. It's significant. Want proof? If it is random coincidence like you say it is, then it could've just as easily been the other way around, with orange instead of yellow and vice versa. If that had been the case, then so much resemblance would be lost. There wouldn't be yellow shoulders, orange elbows, yellow wrists, orange hips, orange thighs, yellow knees, etc., and the tail would be mostly yellow, not orange. It wouldn't look much like Infernape at all. What a difference it makes when the color placement is random and arbitrary! And again, the fact that the hands and feet break the striped pattern for this costume (and only this costume) is very significant.

Actually... holy cow, I didn't realize this before, but I just noticed one extra detail that was so subtle that I overlooked it. The default Incineroar has a black pattern on its torso. The orange Incineroar costume changes this pattern to yellow. I had been overlooking it because I thought it was just glow/lighting from the fire belt, but no - it's an actual color change from black to yellow. You know what Pokemon has small patches of yellow on their otherwise-white torso? Infernape! That's another detail in favor of resembling Infernape, and I didn't even include it in my list above!

See? You want me to very closely examine this costume to prove that it isn't Infernape... yet the end result is that I accidentally stumble upon even more evidence in favor of it resembling Infernape. I'm now 90% convinced it is Infernape at this point. I don't need to convince you, because I see now that is impossible... I just need to convince anyone else reading this debate that the similarities between Incineroar's costume and Infernape's color composition are too significant to ignore, and they outweigh any minor differences between the shades of orange and gray.

Good day to you. --PeabodySam (talk) 16:03, 12 December 2018 (EST)

The thing you have to realise is that when they make Pokemon skins for Smash they cannot and do not change the base pattern. Where the colours are to be placed is pre-determined. It's not like Blood Falcon or Fierce Deity Link where they can change things beyond just the colour of the costume to suit the need. The only Pokemon skins in the game that do anything other than change the colours are Pikachu, Pichu and Jigglypuff just because of the hats. In fact, all the costumes except for the 3rd one follow the same striping patterns of replacing specific colours on the arms and legs. The marking on the belly follows the same pattern of being matched to replace a specific colour on all of the skins except the second last one. Considering the fact that orange was intended to be the primary colour, yellow as a secondary then they wouldn't break this pattern. So no, you can't really argue there was much intent in changing this. The actual selection of colours are prioritised before the placement in reference to Pokemon skins because they often do not change the patterns to suit certain Pokemon. I'd also like to point out the standards this wiki has set in determining the references for Pokemon skins. Greninja's black skin in Smash 4 used to be cited as "shiny Greninja" but it was removed - the cream colours on the face and the tongue not being the right shade of red were enough to do that (currently the Ultimate page references this skin as shiny Ash-Greninja, which should be updated as "retroactively resembling" as the skin in Smash 4 predates Ash-Greninja.) If those differences in colour were enough to discount that possibility then why would Incineroar having TWO colours that aren't even present on the source Pokemon fly?

Can I ask you what's arbitrary about discounting this so-called "orange Infernape" evidence? You use a trophy model without proper rendering from Smash 4 as "evidence". I then give you multiple screenshots where the game is properly rendered and the Infernape model has its correct brown colour (oh, and by the way, I colour dropped every section of skin on there. All brown). You are very selectively choosing somewhat orange-ish appearances that don't even match the rest of the game. The only evidence you have is your one screenshot from PBR, which on further inspection, is still inconsistentwith the rest of the game. So really there isn't any "orange Infernape" except for carefully picked lighting illusions and unrendered models. I also don't think you've read anything at all. You've just skimmed and replied with some spiel about how perspective and how people see colours differently. Now that on its own might be valid, but you yourself even proved that the Incineroar skin doesn't resemble Infernape in colour with your colour picker chart, not to mention that everyone agrees that this skin is orange, and the consensus has been for twelve years that Infernape is brown. Even more proof that you don't read is that I've already said that the presence of one extra colour does not hold more weight in discrediting it than the absense of brown and white discredit the Infernape argument. What I am arguing is that it ISN'T Infernape, and that even Scrafty has more evidence, which is apparently discounted because of the hands and a shade of grey (but apparently white and grey are close enough for Infernape.) At least grey is grey. White is not grey. So how does that undermine anything? And so - if this is enough for you to say it isn't Scrafty, then you cannot at the same time unbiasedly say it's Infernape. I would also like to ask you that apart from the hands, what changes would you make to this skin to make it more like Scrafty? Making the grey a little darker, I would assume? That's about all that would really need to be done. You also haven't addressed the fact that there is no feasible reason for it not to be brown and white if it was based off Infernape. There is no conflict with other skins and it's not like the colours aren't do-able.

Rocket1908 (talk) 18:52, 12 December 2018 (EST)

As I said, I'm done trying to convince you, since you can never accept that Infernape can be seen as dark orange (while others are perfectly willing to accept that point of view). This debate is just going in this endless duck/rabbit loop.

Instead, I'll focus on something else you brought up: "apart from the hands, what changes would you make to this skin to make it more like Scrafty?" That's a very interesting question, and one I'd love to answer and discuss with you. The simple answer? A lot of changes, primarily in color composition (again, what I keep stressing as the most important similarity between the costume and Infernape).

Apologies for the crude quality. This particular computer does not have Photoshop, so I had to make do with quickly whipping this up in MS Paint.

I'd make the forehead and upper jaw the same orange color as the whiskers (like with the black/red Incineroar costume), since Scrafty's head is almost entirely orange. I'd make the eyebrows dark gray (and I deliberately chose a much darker shade of gray than the original costume's light gray), since Scrafty has dark gray eyelids.

Scrafty's torso is mostly orange, with a dark gray pattern along the middle. Therefore, instead of a light gray torso with a yellow pattern, I'd make an orange torso with a dark gray pattern.

I'd swap the orange/yellow striping on the waist down (i.e. waist, legs, and tail). This makes yellow (not orange) the most prevalent color in this half of the body, just like Scrafty's "pants". As an afterthought, I also made one of the tail's stripes red, to match the little bit of red on Scrafty's tail as well as referencing the fact that the original costume does deviate from the striping pattern for the hands and feet.

Speaking of which, I'd make the hands and feet follow the same striping pattern as the arms and legs. You'll notice that I've completely excised dark blue from the color palette. Now, the costume has orange hands and yellow feet, just like Scrafty.

The end result? Only four colors: no dark blue, and the gray now much more closely matches Scrafty's shade of dark gray. But more importantly, the way that these colors are arranged looks a lot more like Scrafty: a predominantly orange upper half, a mostly yellow lower half, some dark gray highlights, and a little bit of red on the forehead and tail. However, to do this, I had to change nearly everything in the color composition, except for the whiskers, lower jaw, forehead stripe, and arms. Oh, and the belt too, but I wasn't going to touch that anyway.

In contrast, if you asked me: "what changes would you make to this skin to make it more like Infernape?" The only things I'd do are adjust the shading of orange and gray to better match the original colors. That's it. As it already looks, the arrangement of colors in the costume already resembles Infernape for all the reasons I outlined in my previous two comments. --PeabodySam (talk) 19:42, 12 December 2018 (EST)

Ok, but you've changed some things that are non-negotiable as far as the skin composition is concerned. The eyebrows and head marking have to be the same colour. There's no split. Secondly, the order of the stripes on the legs are reversed and the tail has added a new colour, which has not occurred on any of the skins. The only time the established striping pattern is even close to being ignored is on skin 3, where the shoulders don't follow. But the limbs and tail all follow the same pattern. In fact, i very quickly had my own go at altering both to better match the composition. (the hands/feet don't look great, but it was a quick attempt).

reference

On Infernape in addition to the previously discussed colour changes I had to change the whiskers and snout to better match the facial composition, and lightened the navy blue on the hands to better match (I probably would've replaced the yellow with more white to better reflect its presence on the actual design, but I've given you the benefit of the doubt here, and you can see why.) Apart from darkening the grey and changing the navy parts, the only things I changed were the top of the head and the mark on the abdomen (I kept it grey considering it's fairly prominent on the normal design, plus none of the designs use the same colour for the arm leading into the body.) I'd also like to re-emphasise the yellow pattern on the abdomen was probably just a by-product of their pattern scheme and not manually altering it, so I'd let it pass. As you can see the importance of the brown and white is very clearly emphasised just in comparison, and the fact I had to make the facial change kinda discredits the argument of intentional positioning of the stripes. But I think it's very clear based on this how different the shades of orange/grey and brown/white really are.

Rocket1908 (talk) 21:08, 12 December 2018 (EST)

Just gonna throw my two cents.

I think the flame color is meant to be just that, the trademark yellow and orange flame color found on most fire Pokémon. A more direct reference would be Pyroar’s mane, who is also a cat. Another cat reference would be the Black and Blue color that resembles Luxray, whose also a cat. The purple one that people say is Big the Cat can also be a resemblance to Purrloin, yet another Cat Pokémon. Once more, the inverse color scheme with the majority black over red, is actually the color scheme of the preevolution Litten.

That’s my thoughts Shawksta (talk) 22:31, 12 December 2018 (EST)

@Shawksta: I'm not too sure about Luxray or Purrloin, since the color palettes don't exactly match up (I'd feel a lot better about Luxray if Incineroar's costume had yellow in it, for example). Litten is pretty reasonable, though I'm still not quite certain about it.

@Rocket: You're correct that I broke several patterns in my Scrafty proposal, but I wouldn't go so far as to say these patterns are "non-negotiable". There are exceptions to the rules, after all. For example, any other costume shows that the hands/feet are the same color as the waist, but the orange costume breaks that pattern; likewise, any other costume (with the possible exception of the black/gray one) shows that the forehead and eyebrows must be the same two colors as the arms/legs (even if not always corresponding to the specific stripes; see the default versus green costumes, swapping which stripe corresponds to the forehead and which stripe corresponds to the eyebrows), but again the orange costume breaks that pattern; thirdly, all other costumes show that the forehead and upper jaw must be the same color, but this is not the case for the orange costume (therefore demonstrating that there is no rule that mandates certain body parts always having the same color). This can likewise be seen in the costumes of other characters; for example, Samus's costumes are full of examples of broken patterns in color composition in order to make the Varia Suit recolors better match the source material. Therefore, you can't say that these are "non-negotiable" unless we know that for a fact (i.e. we pull up the texture sheets and see that the arms and legs reference the exact same part of the sheet, meaning they have to follow the exact same striping pattern); right now, to paraphrase a fictional pirate, these are more like guidelines than actual rules.

So, why would Incineroar's orange costume break not one, not two, but three patterns seen in all other costumes? None of these pattern breaks (except having a red forehead pattern) make it look any closer to Scrafty, but they do strengthen the resemblance to Infernape: dark blue hands/feet, a light gray forehead, red eyebrows, and additional bits of red and dark blue on the head (and only the head).

Additionally, the yellow abdomen pattern is certainly a deliberate and manual change, not an accidental byproduct of the striping pattern. Compare this to the black/gray costume, where the abdomen pattern is red: a color seen nowhere in the striping pattern. The only other place on the entire costume that is red would be the palms of the hands. However, even if you were right about certain color compositions being "non-negotiable", this is not one of them either: the purple costume shows that the abdomen pattern is purple while the palm of the hand is yellow.

In your reference, I disagree with making the whiskers white, since having them orange keeps the bottom jaw orange and likewise keeps notable orange formations on either side of the head (resembling the positions of Infernape's ears, even while Incineroar's actual ears are positioned and colored differently). Making the upper jaw brown does make it slightly closer to Infernape, but like I said, it loses the additional bit of dark blue that helps to reinforce the similar color compositions. Other than those two alterations, the only things you did were slightly alter the shading of the colors to better match the Infernape pattern. Meanwhile, I still have to squint my eyes and give a lot of leeway to confirmation bias if I wanted to say that your own Scrafty proposal (let alone the original orange costume) undeniably resembles Scrafty.

By the way, it looks like you picked a darker shade of brown than Infernape's actual neutral color, so I fixed that. I also slightly darkened the white fur because it wouldn't be so garishly white when properly rendered. Just for the sake of argument, I left the upper jaw brown, but like I said I still think that having it dark blue helps the color composition. The result is... yes, I'll concede that there is difference, but the contrast isn't nearly as stark as your recoloring image suggests.

And, because the contrast isn't so stark, I reiterate my stance in this debate: the difference between shades of orange and gray can be overlooked with a cursory glance, and they do not outweigh the significant and deliberate similarities in color composition that are evident in close analysis. --PeabodySam (talk) 12:17, 13 December 2018 (EST)

Hi, everyone. I am not going to elaborate greatly on my thought process, as anything I would state has been better exemplified above. Plus, I don’t have the energy to really”fight” someone on what - at the end of the day - really isn’t a big deal. I think there are more important parts of the wiki that need addressing. (Though I will say, “retroactively” applying the inspiration for the veteran’s alts to newer characters is a terrible and unconstructive idea. That blackish Greninja looks more like a piece of Easter candy than it does to its Shiny form, and “citing” Shiny Ash-Greninja as a potential source of inspiration - despite being introduced afterwards - is unsubstantiated.) But for Incineroar, I think the evidence introduced above strongly suggests the alt closely resembles Infernape and that a connection to Scrafty is unsubstantiated. I’m not saying it definitively obvious that it is not based on Scrafty, just that the arguments above don’t have very strong evidence to support that. Even if one believes that it is based on Scrafty, I’m curious to know why one would be so insistent to include it in the article. Cheers! Nintendo101 (talk) 12:30, 13 December 2018 (EST)

I think I've said everything I need to, both in supporting the Infernape reference and in refuting Rocket's counterarguments. I really don't have the energy or the time to continue this debate, and I've already spent more than enough of both. Therefore, at this point, I think I'm content to just sit back and let everyone else decide for themselves. I wish you all a good day! --PeabodySam (talk) 12:55, 13 December 2018 (EST)

Firstly, no. The abdomen is not deliberate. you are using the exception and not the rule to try and argue against this. Look at literally every other costume - they all follow the original design in this aspect where the colour matches the secondary colour on every single one except for the black one, and the black one is clearly only changed so it's actually visible. If it wasn't a by-product why isn't it gold on the supposed Big the Cat one? I also never said the palms had to match anything - there's no pattern with those, so you've just thrown that in there to pad out your point. As for the stripes, none of the skins deviate from those patterns, so yes. We have to assume it is the rule.

I also would like to re-iterate that this isn't merely option x vs option y. Reminder about the stance this wiki has taken on referencing Pokemon skins. Skins with the most minor flaw or inconsistency have been removed. Only ones like the Charizard Golbat that (prior to Ultimate washing the colours out) that were absolutely as close as you could get. Even moreso - there were a bunch of references such as Lickitung for Greninja's pink skin that were removed - one of the shades of pink was too dark. Now that's a shade in the same colour that was allegedly not good enough. They didn't replace it with a better reference, it was just removed because they thought the pink was too different for it to be a deliberate choice. If dark pink is not an acceptable substitute for pink on that skin, then orange and grey are not acceptable substitutes for brown and white. As for what I was getting at, it isn't about whether or not it's one or the other. It can be none. And I've said if the consensus here is that it isn't Scrafty then I'm happy to settle for none until we get a suitable replacement, because it certainly isn't Infernape, because Scrafty's colours actually match. The point you conveniently keep ignoring is that if they intended it to look like Infernape, why does it not have the more accurate colours? There is absolutely no reason that they couldn't have made it brown and white. Incineroar's shiny skin uses a white and you can see that one's significantly lighter than the grey. No reason not to use brown because there aren't any other brown Incineroar skins that it'd clash with. So then if it's Infernape why would they not make it those colours when there is no reason not to? Again, look at the Golbat skin. It makes Charizard blue and the wings purple. The underbelly obviously isn't compromisable but it's been given a blue tint as well. It doesn't use lavender to replace blue or black to replace purple, it's as 1:1 as you can get. Even with your attempt at correcting the colour scheme you can see how different it is (don't know why you were so insistent on reverting the whiskers. You can see how much more prominent the white is in the face, especially the sides. You've only done it to double down on your point). Don't even bother with the "i'm going to sit back" bluff because you did that before and I know you're just gonna come back with some spiel about legos or ducks and rabbits and talking about "intentional placement" of pre-determined patterns. As for what it's really based on, we will probably never know. But it certainly isn't Infernape. If the designers had such an eye for detail on this one, why would they implement these allegedly deliberate smaller details only to completely deviate on the two most prominent colours? You cannot seriously look at your own reversion next to the original then tell me orange/grey and brown/white aren't different enough.

Rocket1908 (talk) 17:59, 13 December 2018 (EST)

No, really, I'm done. I've said everything that can be said, and if you still refuse to consider all the evidence I've provided, then there's nothing more to say.

Again, I wish you all a good day. --PeabodySam (talk) 18:17, 13 December 2018 (EST)

I just thought I would insert my two cents into the discussion but I saw someone make connections to Incineroar's alt colors and famous professional wrestlers. I figured since Japan has such a connection to pro wresting and that's Incineroar's entire gimmick I figured it wouldn't be reaching too far to say that that was the inspiration for his colors. Here's a picture that I found that makes the connections. Color 1 is his default, Color 2 is based off of Jushin Thunder Liger, Color 3 is Black Tiger, Color 4 is Rey Mysterio Jr.'s Outfit from WCW Halloween Havoc 1997, Color 5 is Tiger Mask, Color 6 is Ultimo Dragon, Color 7 is The Great Muta, and Color 8 is Mitsuharu Misawa. Source of the picture can be found here: https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/1428828-super-smash-brothers-ultimate

Poseidon (talk) 13:05, 15 December 2018 (EST)

Dark Samus' alt colours

Might be pointing out a bit here, but I think I know what all of Dark Samus' alts are supposed to reference.

• Default
• Green could be a reference to Weavel
• Purple one is Noxus
• Red is to Trace
• The golden alt is obviously a reference to the Golden Torizo
• The grey/white alt is probably not a reference to Dark Samus' concept art from Echoes, but of the Phazon Suit
• The black alt could be a reference to the Emperor Ing, instead of the suggested Red Phazon.
• The magenta alt is similar to Gandrayda

Any other possibilities that could be seen? Gimblos (talk) 5:14, 5 December 2018 (EST)

We already have a discussion up above about Dark Samus, but I just want to reply to a few of your points:

The limbs and shoulders of the Phazon Suit are predominantly black, and even the gray portions are a dark shade of gray rather than the bright silver of the Dark Samus alt. In contrast, the fact that Dark Samus even has official concept art with that specific color scheme seems to be a huge point in favor of the concept art.

I've suggested that the black alt could be a reference to this concept art, since it likewise features Dark Samus with black armor and red/orange highlights. That being said, I haven't seen any suggestions (including my own) that really resemble the black alt, at least not to the same unmistakable degree as the silver alt. --PeabodySam (talk) 17:28, 5 December 2018 (EST)

This video shows Gandrayda's Spirit Battle being represented with Dark Samus... in her purple costume, not the magenta costume. I think this makes it pretty safe to say that the magenta alt isn't Gandrayda, since it would be very odd if they created this alt to represent Gandrayda but didn't actually use it for her. Taking another look at the purple alt, I do think it's slightly closer to Gandrayda than Noxus. I think I'm going to go ahead and make that switch on the main page. --PeabodySam (talk) 21:53, 9 December 2018 (EST)

Robin Alt Colour

Female Robin Red looks more like Flavia from Fire Emblem Awakening than Anna from any installment of Fire Emblem Kicked (talk) 20:26, 7 December 2018 (EST)

Samus last alt (black and yellow color)

The colors of the black and yellow Samus alt look much more like the Power Trooper enemy from Metroid Prime than Kanden. Why would Samus have the colors of just one of the handful of other bounty hunters, especially when Samus has no more a connection to Kanden than the other hunters? They probably needed a black color to replace the Dark Samus alt and went another black enemy coloration. The Power Trooper space pirate copies the default weapon of Samus, much more of some connection than Samus has to Kenden. Lobo (talk) 11:30, 9 December 2018 (EST)

This is a very valid point you make: the Power Trooper shares the same color scheme as Samus's alt. I still say that Kanden has the benefit of being a playable Bounty Hunter (like Samus) instead of a generic enemy (like Power Troopers), and the argument of "why Kanden and not other hunters" can likewise be turned around and applied to Power Troopers (i.e. "why Power Troopers and not other troopers?"), so I think we shouldn't discount Kanden just yet. Still, since we don't have confirmation one way or the other, I'll go ahead and add Power Trooper in.

BTW, Kanden is a spirit. Does anyone know which puppet fighter he uses in Spirit Battles? If it's Samus in her black alt, that would be a huge point in favor of him being the likely inspiration for the costume. --PeabodySam (talk) 15:06, 9 December 2018 (EST)

You make good points. I was just playing the challenge board, and the Kanden spirit challenge uses the green Samus. I'm not sure how much this affects the alt. costume colors. Do we know how other spirits that have a clear influence on an alt. costumes use or don't use the corresponding alt. color? Lobo (talk) 20:12, 14 December 2018 (EST)

Hmm, that certainly shoots a big hole in my argument. I do know that Gravity Suit, Brittany, and Charlie Spirit Battles use matching costumes, so I don't see why the Kanden battle wouldn't use the black costume if it was based directly upon Kanden. I know I've previously used that argument against the pink Dark Samus costume being based on Gandrayda (who uses the purple Dark Samus costume instead), so in that case I'm willing to say that I was most likely wrong about Kanden. --PeabodySam (talk) 21:18, 14 December 2018 (EST)

Semi-protected edit request

Please link the word "appearance" in Ganondorf's brown costume to this art. Also, could Young Link's orange costume be a reference to this glitch in The Minish Cap? 73.45.30.142 18:09, 10 December 2018 (EST)

• No I think the orange alt is more of a resemblance to Skull Kid's clothing, considering that Young Link is the main character in Majora's Mask where Skull Kid is the antagonist of said game. --24.237.40.201 12:21, 15 December 2018 (EST)

Head Icons

Does anyone know where the head icons are? Even just a link to where I can download them would be great, I would be happy to cut and upload them as necessary. I imagine that since we have the direct rips for alt skins that the head icons shouldn't be far off. kenniky 16:34, 11 December 2018 (EST)

We only have the costume images because the official website has them; they're not ripped from the game. I know a rip exists, but it has strange darkness issues that makes it unusable. If there's a better rip out there right now I'm unaware of it - it'll happen eventually. Toomai Glittershine The Inconceivable 21:24, 11 December 2018 (EST)

Spriters' Resource also does not have their rip of the game up yet, but, likely, when that is up, we will upload the icons. Aidan, the Festive Rurouni 21:29, 11 December 2018 (EST)

Archive?

Mainly because of some really long talk sections, but should we archive this section, since it's already past 45,000 bytes? SugarCookie420 (talk) 21:47, 11 December 2018 (EST)

Judging by how since I last posted this that this talk page has increased by almost 30,000 bytes from a single talk section, we should probably wait until it's over. But how would we archive it, would we do it as its own section? SugarCookie420 (talk) 20:42, 12 December 2018 (EST)

Bowser's pink hair costume.

I won't be verbose like some of the other posts. I believe the pink haired bowser is a nod to the Bowletta incarnation of bowser. The pink hair mimic the pink buns on bowletta, and the brighter shell scheme supports this theory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drfitzcoy (talk • contribs) 8:55

Sounds like a bit of a stretch but the unusually orange skin color (which I think is more noticeable in Smash 4 than it is in Ultimate) makes it more likely. Still, Bowletta has red hair and we would need more opinions before putting it in the mainspace. Nergal06 (talk) 00:41, 13 December 2018 (EST)

(at least two) Lucario alts

Lucario's Navy alternate seems like a pretty clear reference to Mega Lucario to me at least, and after cross-referencing his Brawl alts to check if it appeared before Pokémon's Generation V, I'm convinced also that Lucario's Purple alternate is a reference to the very thematically similar Fighting-Type Pokémon, Mienshao. A case could be made for his Grey alt being a shout-out to Machop/Machoke/Machamp but that one's flimsier. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FitzyFreaky (talk • contribs) 21:58, December 12, 2018

Violent Ken

With Ken's Black alt's darkened skintone and presence in Dark Samus's evil version-centric Classic Mode, should an aside be added referencing Violent Ken? I know Violent Ken in the Street Fighter series typically retains Ken's red gi and has longer/brighter hair, but Dark Samus's Classic Mode has me convinced it was intentional to darken Ken's skin for this one alt. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FitzyFreaky (talk • contribs) 22:06, December 12, 2018

When I listed the costumes, I originally stated that it was based on Violent Ken's 5th color from USFII, which is also his "Kick" color in SVC Chaos. But then they just exised it to be a reference to 3rd Strike. --Tailikku (talk) 09:09, 13 December 2018 (EST)

Lucina Alt-3 (Black)

This alternate costume is actually closer to Olivia’s color scheme Both have white and dark blue/black, but the amounts more closely resemble Olivia, with just the sides being black The only reason it sort of looks like Cherche is because of the armor ImBeingHelpful (talk) 22:13, 12 December 2018 (EST)

I'm going to disagree with you here. Gray is much more prominent here than white is, which would not be the case if this was based on Olivia. Also, there is no gold accent, and the hair is substantially more muted than Olivia's. Even if the colors are similar (if only because Olivia and Cherche have similar color schemes), the proportions of the color and the lightness/darkness of it definitively point more towards Cherche than Olivia. DekZek 23:16, 12 December 2018 (EST)

Ridley's Alts

Ridley's second alt isn't of Meta Ridley, who had no purple parts and grey skin, but rather Proteus Ridley from Samus's Return, who almost looks exactly like that. The final tint, which you all have as the Robot Ridley, looks almost exactly like Meta Ridley down to the wing color. --Subsourian (talk) 19:13, 13 December 2018 (EST)

If you look at Meta Ridley's Brawl model (which is essentially the same as his Prime model), you'll see that there were purple parts of Meta Ridley all along (specifically his head, arms, hands, and thighs). Meta Ridley's purple parts (particularly the arms) are also very visible in this official render of the Prime model. In contrast, Proteus Ridley is much more organic than the second costume: note the wings, torso, right arm, left foot, etc. The only notable traits that the second costume has in common with Proteus Ridley is even more saturated purple skin and the number of fingers.

The eighth costume, on the other hand, is completely silver (lacking Meta Ridley's color composition) and has lime green wings (instead of Meta Ridley's yellow). It also has red markings on its feet, which seem odd and random until you realize that the same red marks are on Mecha Ridley's hands. --PeabodySam (talk) 19:45, 13 December 2018 (EST)

Forgot to mention: due to Ridley's pose, the second costume's artwork doesn't really do a good job representing what the costume actually looks like during normal gameplay. The artwork's posture shows off Ridley's underarms and back a lot more, while you'd normally be seeing him in poses like the image to the right (apologies for the poor image quality; it was just a quick screencap of the video). Here, the silver and black parts are a lot more visible, while the purple skin also looks a little more muted and harder to distinguish.

The resemblance to Meta Ridley should be a lot clearer now. Does this help? --PeabodySam (talk) 20:01, 13 December 2018 (EST)

King K Rool’s white color

I see it as a reference to Kackle, the skeleton with the blue with white dots bandana. It may also be a reference to the Blue and White Color scheme of the Super Kong guide color scheme in the DK Returns and Tropical Freeze games. Shawksta (talk) 20:31, 13 December 2018 (EST)