Talk:Alternate costume (SSB4)/Archive 3

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Mewtwo's Pink Skin looks like it's based on Mew. Red, Blue and Yellow are commonly used colours for legendary trios in the Pokémon games (i.e. Raikou, Suicune and Entei). Charizards Costumes seem to be based on the colours Pokémon get categorized in (red, blue, yellow, green, black, brown, purple, gray, white and pink) Käsefleisch (talk) 13:57, 7 February 2016 (EST)

Fox's purple costume is clearly Wolf.SpizzySPAM (talk) 02:30, 29 December 2015 (EST)SpizzySPAM

Well, let's look at it. The fur's gray, as is Wolf's, albeit Wolf's is a bit blue as well in most of his appearances. There's a lot of purple and pink in Fox's outfit, but Wolf's only has a little bit of darker purple in his Brawl outfit. So I wouldn't say it's clearly Wolf. At first glance, that looks to be the case, but upon further examination, it may not be so. Even though they both have gray fur, given the other parts of the outfit it's a bit more ambiguous than that, which is why it's left blank. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 03:00, 29 December 2015 (EST)

It's really the clothing colors that muddy it up as to what/who the costume is based off of. If it clearly matched Wolf's clothes colors then yeah it'd be okay to say it's based on Wolf, but it does not. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 03:11, 29 December 2015 (EST)

Something I just noticed

The first costume of each character is sometimes called default, but other characters call it by color. We need to pick one and stick to it, I think. Serpent King 22:32, 1 January 2016 (EST)

Nice catch Serpent. I say default. It makes the most sense. Also, for some characters like Robin, Duck Hunt, Fox, and Palutena, all who have a multitude of colors on their person, it's hard to determine what their "default" colors should be. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 22:57, 1 January 2016 (EST)

I agree with that. Serpent King 22:58, 1 January 2016 (EST)

I do think there can be exceptions, such as Bowser Jr., gender bent characters, etc. Serpent King 22:59, 1 January 2016 (EST)

Yeah. Also, for ones with gender variants, should it be "Gender Color" or "Color?" In the case of WFT it has to be "Gender Color," but Villager, Robin, and Corrin don't need that, though either way can do. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 23:01, 1 January 2016 (EST)

Personally, I dislike the whole gender-bender idea in the first place, but that's Smash's fault, not ours. Anyway, I think that, outside WFT, we're good with just color. Serpent King 23:04, 1 January 2016 (EST)

Ok Cool. And just out of curiosity, what do have against male/female variants? For Robin, Corrin, and Villager, it's because they're customizable characters. Both WFTs coexist. It's not gender-bending, although stuff like Linkle is pretty dang close. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 23:12, 1 January 2016 (EST)

Ok so for everyone the default is Default. For WFT it's Default, Male, and the rest "Gender Color." For Robin and Corrin, it's Default, Female, then colors. For Villager, due to how different each one is, I think it should just be colors. For R.O.B., the first two should either be Default (Famicom) and Default (NES), or Default (Japan) and Default (North America). Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 23:28, 1 January 2016 (EST)

ROB's what messed it up. The template probably uses the color parameter to determine the file name for the head icon. Serpent King 23:30, 1 January 2016 (EST)

Yes there is indeed a reason that all the alt costume pages have this convention. The idea is that a colour is used whenever possible, and "default" is used as a last resort. Example: Yoshi's first costume is "green" because that's what it is. In SSB4, Bowser's first costume is "default" because its only real options are "green", "yellow", and "orange", but they're all already taken by other swaps that clearly are more appropriate. However, it's "green" in previous games because there's no such collision. Pokémon Trainer in Brawl is "default" because there's no one colour that can describe his team's first costume. Toomai Glittershine The Labbie 23:31, 1 January 2016 (EST)

Any reason why that is though? Serpent King 23:33, 1 January 2016 (EST)

So we effed it up and we should undo it all, or no? Because while your explanation is sound Toomai, the default being labeled as "Default" makes a lot of sense. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 23:36, 1 January 2016 (EST)

They don't always coincide with Find Mii colors either. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 23:39, 1 January 2016 (EST)

Simple really: consistency with previous games. SSB4 is the only game where the idea of using "default" as a colour is pretty much required (PT in Brawl being the exception). Changing the rules (i.e. "the first costume is always 'default'") makes things inconsistent compared to adding a rule (i.e. "use 'default' as a last resort"). Toomai Glittershine The Emissary 23:41, 1 January 2016 (EST)

Makes sense...I'm willing to get going on the previous games' alt costume pages to make it consistent with this logic. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 23:44, 1 January 2016 (EST)

I think you might have misunderstood. All the previous games' pages, as well as this one before this discussion began, were already consistent with the paradigm of "'default' is a last resort". Toomai Glittershine The Ghostbuster 23:55, 1 January 2016 (EST)

I didn't misunderstand. I propose a change in logic across all alt costume pages. Do you agree? If not I could just undo everything. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 23:57, 1 January 2016 (EST)

No I do not agree. My prime reason is that the Japanese SSB 64 website provides official colour names, including for the first costumes, and therefore making it impossible to remain consistent under any "the first costume is always 'default'" system. Toomai Glittershine The Pan-Galactic 00:00, 2 January 2016 (EST)

Hm ok but what supposition leads you to think these pages have to follow in that way? Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 00:02, 2 January 2016 (EST)

In general, doing A on one page and B on a closely-related page is not the best option, because then people get confused as to which one is the correct way. Now obviously confusion can still happen, as shown by this discussion existing, but at least in this case we can point out the methodology and explain "we're actually doing A on all the pages, it just happens to look like B on this one page because [reason]". Toomai Glittershine The Cloronic 00:28, 2 January 2016 (EST)

Sorry I'm doing a bad job communicating here. Why must we operate under the supposition that we have to follow the SSB64 website for labeling default costumes across all alt costume pages? With the "rule" me and SK agree on, I just don't see SSB64 website as a good reason for using the rule you're talking about in Smashwiki. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 00:33, 2 January 2016 (EST)

I guess I'm trying to say that labeling default costumes as "Default" works here, on Smashwiki. How the official website labels it as standard colors is A-ok, it works, but for that website, not as well here on Smashwiki. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 00:34, 2 January 2016 (EST)

Whether it "works" is a matter of opinion. My opinion is that it feels very wrong to just slap a "default" label on most characters, with their brightly- and distinctly-coloured options, and instead reserve the term for cases where a simple colour name is simply not feasible. It's a pattern that has held successful so far and I don't really see much of a reason to change it other than a difference in opinion. Toomai Glittershine The Zesty 01:06, 2 January 2016 (EST)

(Reset indent) why is Pikachu not yellow, and etc. though? Serpent King 01:10, 2 January 2016 (EST)

Cuz he's naked. Just like Jigglypuff. Anyways, sure ok, you have your argument, it feels wrong, etc. I have mine; I just think it's far more consistent, better, and professional-looking to put "Default" as everyone's default costume. Let's get a vote going. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 01:14, 2 January 2016 (EST)

An easy fix: this is the revision we're after. Serpent King 00:03, 2 January 2016 (EST)

Gonna bring this up again. I don't get why it's so wrong to label characters' default costumes as "Default." Like, do you think it's a dishonor to colors or something? Because that's what I'm getting from what you're saying, which is just silly to me. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 04:34, 10 February 2016 (EST)

And it's not like there's some rule saying we MUST follow the style of the Smash N64 website. I mean, I wanna hear a good reason out of you for this. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 04:36, 10 February 2016 (EST)

It is better to use an existing official term than invent an unofficial one, as per SW:OFFICIAL. Toomai Glittershine The Incomprehensible 09:13, 10 February 2016 (EST)

I'm arguing that "default" is the more widely used and well-known term, and thus trumps the default color names. As per SW:OFFICIAL, analogous to ukemi and teching. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 13:38, 10 February 2016 (EST)

I'm pretty sure using "default" isn't going against SW:OFFICIAL. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by cupid♥. Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 13:39, 10 February 2016 (EST)

This is an old conversation revived without reason. DLC is done, these are the color names we are going with, this conversation is pointless. Serpent King 13:40, 10 February 2016 (EST)

It's revived with reason. I wasn't satisfied with it, and it just tippered off and never resolved. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 13:42, 10 February 2016 (EST)

Nono it was resolved. Serpent King 13:47, 10 February 2016 (EST)

I think you just don't want to deal with it, it was 2-1 before it tippered off with no results on the winning end. It ended with no resolution, I'm bringing it back up again, if you don't want to deal with it, then don't. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 17:13, 10 February 2016 (EST)

You are under no obligation to further this conversation. You've changed sides it seems, which is totally completely 100% fine, if for not very good reasons, but if you're gonna say there was resolution, when in reality the conversation just dropped, then that's not really true. In addition, we have new input from DNK. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 17:18, 10 February 2016 (EST)

(reset indent) Yeahh this definitely wasn't resolved. At all. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by cupid♥. Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 17:23, 10 February 2016 (EST)

There is a difference between something ending and something resolving, between compromise and mediatory action, between debating and fighting, etc. This case is like a short essay question. We thought of some ideas, debated internally, tried to implement a few things, didn't really reach resolution, and just dropped it altogether for a bit, though the question remained. Which is partially my fault, but unlike an essay question on a test, this has no due date, and not much is actually at stake. Well, in my view, it's between settling for something less and making changes that would make something better or more consistent. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 17:40, 10 February 2016 (EST)

You are lobbying for a change. You are the one who needs to present evidence that the change is beneficial, and as far as I can tell, you haven't presented anything other than "it's better in my opinion". Toomai Glittershine The Jiggy 19:22, 10 February 2016 (EST)

I already have. It's far more consistent if the characters' default costumes are labeled as "Default." Labeling their default costume across the board is far more consistent, professional-looking, and more proper. Also, it makes much more sense; it is inconsistent to have other characters' default costumes labeled as colors while others are labeled as "default." I understand the reasoning behind that, but it can change for the better. I gave my view with reasons, which is consistency and it looking good. Your reasons are making it in line with the Japanese website for no reason I see other than it's the Japanese website, and it being more honorable to the colors, I guess, which is kinda silly. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 22:13, 10 February 2016 (EST)

Yeah, I mean SmashWiki always shoots for consistency, and as an encyclopedia it should. Right now we have something hugely inconsistent and it's really strange.

Besides, you haven't given any reason for it to fine as it is except for "colors don't always fit", which is an equally good argument for our side. If colors don't always fit, choose the one that does. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by cupid♥. Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 22:33, 10 February 2016 (EST)

I agree DNK except that it is really difficult to find a color that works for some characters, such as Fox and Bowser. Which is why I would like to propose that default costumes should be labeled as "Default" no matter the color. That way, it would not only be consistent all across the board, but also accurate. Having a color name for each default costume would indeed be consistent, but at the expense of accuracy. Also Toomai, what I'm proposing isn't calling a color "Default," but a default costume "Default." Like I'm not saying that colors are not colors; I'm saying that default costumes are default costumes. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 22:53, 10 February 2016 (EST)

Since we're really just working with single words in a table here, "professional-looking" and "proper" are matters of opinion, meaning "consistency" is the only sticking point. You say it should be consistent for each individual character, ignoring whatever patterns may exist elsewhere. The current setup is consistent as part of an overall system across all games (as explained above), which is also consistent with the only official nomenclature we know of, and out of 129 characters requires only 14 exceptions (~10.8%, all but one of which are in SSB4, making it appear worse than it is). Note that there's no way the community itself is consistent on the issue; there's going to be people that say "green Yoshi" and people that say "default Yoshi", and neither side is really more right than the other (though note that the latter does require pre-existing knowledge that default Yoshi is green, which is probably fine for Yoshi but maybe not for more obscure characters to less-knowledgeable players). "Consistency" is all well and good, but what we have here is two different types of "consistency" against each other, and so it's arguably right back down to just opinion. Toomai Glittershine The Bold 10:29, 11 February 2016 (EST)

Luigi

Can someone fix Luigi on this page? I don't know how. Sir Jolteon (talk) 16:57, 4 February 2016 (EST)

Yeah, for some reason the code's not working. I tried fixing it but I don't know what the problem is either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Disaster Flare (talk • contribs) 22:00, 4 February 2016‎ (EDT)

remember to sign your comments Poultry (talk) EZMONEY!! 17:09, 4 February 2016 (EST)

I coulda swore I did...ah well. Disaster Flare (talk) 17:10, 4 February 2016 (EST)

anyway i will try to fix the code on luigi Poultry (talk) EZMONEY!! 17:13, 4 February 2016 (EST)

Miles already fixed it. Disaster Flare (talk) 17:14, 4 February 2016 (EST)