Forum:Link (SSBM)

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I don't want this to be long, so just discuss about Link. From anything to how to make him better to his users, discuss everything. I want you guys to bring in your own opinions, all being accepted. How do you think anyone can make him better? Is there something we may have missed; and more importantly, are there secrets that I am holding about Link?

Discuss. Requiem of Ice (talk) 22:48, 23 November 2013 (EST)

Melee is 12 years old, and has been played, analyzed, and dissected to and back; every single bit of frame and hitbox data of every move from every moveset has been uncovered and recorded, and it has been shown over and over what works and what doesn't. You're not going to "discover" anything new to make Link (or any character) "better" at this point, barring some crazy glitch that would be too convoluted to use anyway. There's nothing you can do to help with Link's inherently bad traits that keeps him from being able to viably compete, nothing of note has been "missed". What the tier list shows won't be changing in any significant way at this point, the most you can expect is a character being shown to be slightly better at even higher levels of play than a character or two above them.

I also guarantee any "secrets" of yours are useless/impractical/negligible techs, or is information already known. 99.9% of the time "secret techniques" don't work. Omega Tyrant 09:04, 24 November 2013 (EST)

Oh, it's too bad, then. I guess I'll just keep all of my techniques to myself whenever I enter tournaments. Of course, you are always invited to come against me in a Melee Money Match (or when I get Brawl back, an Online Brawl Match, but that's for a different discussion). That's when I may surprise you. Requiem of Ice (talk) 20:20, 25 November 2013 (EST)

Haha, sure, I'll wifi you, and if you ever come around here, I'll money match you in both Melee and Brawl. Just don't be a Smash Master and bitch about the lag when your "secret techniques" don't work. Omega Tyrant 00:39, 26 November 2013 (EST)

That would be nice, then. But I won't only use Link in Brawl (only in Melee). Also, do you have anything positive to say about Link? Requiem of Ice (talk) 00:52, 26 November 2013 (EST)

Ok as the primary active Melee player on the website here's what I have to say. Link is a mediocre character with a slew of neat tricks (none of which are your "secret techniques" posted on your page) but with those deceptively good traits comes an array of negative traits that hold Link back from being a fully viable character.

Link's most notable trait his is fantastic zoning ability, having considerable disjoint on his hitboxes (not to Marth levels though) and 2 very, very useful projectiles (bombs and boomerangs) both of which give Link a surprisingly deadly combo game. Furthermore Link's attacks in general are fairly speedy and actually have a great deal of power, with 4 of them being great finishers. These moves are down air, up air, forward air, and spin attack and all of them can be set up by the projectiles I mentioned earlier. Another 1 of Link's positives is his recovery. Link's spin attack gives him a good amount of distance to recover high or he can do a wall grapple out of an air dodge to recover low. Link can also extend his recovery by bomb jumping (up b'ing into thrown bomb). Link is also a fairly heavy character so he can be sent offstage quite a few times and recover safely before he is sent off the stage permanently.

Now here comes the bad things about Link. His biggest weakness is his lack of mobility options to help him zone. Melee is an extremely fast past game and the majority of top tier characters are separated from the rest of the cast simply due to their ability to outmaneuver them. Yes, some characters like Falco, Peach, and Ganon have only average or limited mobility, but make up for it by having strong defensive tools to punish movement. Link doesn't have that. While he can swat opponents away with the tools I mentioned above, he cannot move away from opponents quickly. Link has a slow running animation, a subpar dash dash, a short and slow wavedash, and a slow jump and poor air speed. This ironically makes him easy to corner and Link has few tools to deal with corner pressure having only a spin attack out of shield. The next problem is Link's weight. While it does give him a good crouch cancel and longevity against single hits, it augments Link's difficulty of getting out of pressure or combos when cornered.

Now a bit more general advice from me. First of all, listen to people more experienced than you and don't talk like you can revolutionize the game when actually you don't know anything. I'm a reasonable person but given that make false claims about Link AND the fact you aren't by any means a notable player at all, I have to conclude you're not too great at the game and thus can't take your claims seriously. Drop the act dude. While he isn't a bad character, Link has no hidden game-breaking potential. May you be enlightened soon. --Brian^{Don't try me!} 03:06, 26 November 2013 (EST)

Now with Brawl Link, he again has his projectiles and great reach, his neat tricks, and he has even better KO power than he did in Melee, with the KO attacks Brian mentioned being even stronger (bar uncharged Spin Attack), his smashes being stronger and more reliable, and his forward/up tilts can KO reliably now as well. Link additionally has the best vertical momentum cancelling, tying him with DK for third best maximum vertical endurance, and his horizontal endurance, while much worse, is still pretty good.

That's about where the good ends for Brawl Link. See those mobility problems Brian mentioned? It's even worse for Link in Brawl, as he's one of the few characters to have their air speed nerfed; he went from having an air speed value of 1, good for 6th best in Melee, down to .8084, sixth worst in Brawl (and third worst among returning characters). Link did get a useable DACUS, but since his up smash takes so long to complete, it can only be used as an attack option and not as an movement option like Snake's. Additionally Link's attacks are really slow, and he lacks a really fast attack, with his fastest ground attack being his jab at 7 frames and fastest aerial being bair at 6 frames (for comparison, Ganondorf is the only character in Brawl whose fastest attack is even slower than this, and even then he can use WizQuake to produce a 2 frame attack if he doesn't care about the tremendous ending lag). As a result, Link has an inclose game that is worse than everyone else's bar maybe Ganon, and is perhaps the worst character at escaping pressure.

So you might be thinking "ok, I'll just my projectiles and superior reach to keep people out!". However, it doesn't quite work that way, as Link's projectiles are really mediocre, as they aren't really effective when they land and Link can't fire them fast enough or combine them with great mobility to reliably keep opponents out. As a result, Link will lose projectile wars against most other characters that have true projectiles (being really only able to beat Zelda, Luigi, and Mr. Game & Watch (and Kirby if you count the laughable Final Cutter as a true projectile)), while not being particularly difficult for characters that lack them to approach. And while Link does have great reach, his zair is his only good spacer, as the rest of his attacks are too laggy to be unpunishable, even when spaced. So Link is pretty much the worst at camping and keeping opponents out when it comes to the characters that can do it, while also being perhaps the worst character inclose, and being terrible at initiating approaches. This is a fatal combination that will result in a low tier placement in any of the smash games.

The final nail in the coffin for Link though is his recovery. Brian mentioned how his recovery was actually pretty good in Melee, and was one of his greatest strengths. Well in Brawl, it been nerfed to hell, with his air speed going from great to one of the worst, his falling speed being faster (relative to the cast), his wall-grapple being replaced with the inferior tether recovery, bomb jumping no longer being possible, and Spin Attack gaining very poor distance while also now heavily relying on momentum (if Link is not moving forward when using it, it gains no horizontal distance whatsoever, meaning a semi-spike of any strength will prevent recovery). This all results in a recovery that gains terrible distance (its natural distance is so bad Link is one of the few characters in Brawl that can fail a recovery from the standard horizontal trajectory on a standard stage by simply being knocked back too far) while being heavily gimpable (and Link doesn't have good means to fend off edge-guarders while Spin Attack doesn't offer much protection). Link's recovery has been argued to be the worst, with Ivysaur being the only character who is generally agreed to have a worse recovery. His terrible recovery significantly compromises Link's superb endurance potential, and as a result Link's survivability as a whole is pretty poor, with him dying quickly unless he's against a character who heavily relies on vertical KO moves of non-overwhelming power and lack any gimping capability whatsoever (which is pretty much just Zelda, who then has her down smash to kill Link early anyway).

So yeah, Link is a bonafide bottom tier character, and there's nothing "left to discover" nor "secret techniques" that can be done to help with his very significant flaws. Well, he's definitely better than Zelda at least, so Link will never have the title of worst character in Brawl. Omega Tyrant 05:56, 26 November 2013 (EST)

Let me point out various things that give you guys better insight:

1) Great finishers do not only include those four moves. They also include U-Tilt and D-Smash when combined with D-Throw, S-Smash and a perfectly landed Recovery attack (at higher percentages). 2) His "lack of mobility" is also a myth. He is barely less mobile than Peach, for example. He has almost equivalent Air Speed, Faster Ground Speed and faster, less laggy attacks. The only weakness is the height of the jump and fast-falling. Link makes up for this with his N-air, which I will explain next. 3a) The most commonly underrated attack of Link's is his N-air, which is commonly thought of as very weak. This is also not true, as subpar as it is at lower percentages, when percentages hit 50-70 (depending on character weight), his N-air becomes quite viable to the point that not even "teching" is a good option to escape it; this is due to the fact that Link's N-air has very fast end lag and good knockback at high percentages. 3b) Now here's the fun part; Link's N-air, also due to its disjointed hitbox and fast attack time, is actually a good gimping attack. Take Fox, for example; he starts to charge his recovery and Link jumps off the edge to Fox's position. Link uses his N-air to send Fox even further than before, and still has his second jump to recover back to the stage. 3c) As a final insight of Link's N-air, any character who may be light and/or floaty will have extreme difficulty against Link's N-air. This is because Link can actually send opponents upwards if the hitbox is just under the opponent while Link jumps. 4) If you want a true Zero-to-Death combo, use Link's S-Smash>D-Tilt at the edge of any stage. Your opponent will either jump and try to attack or stay in the hurt animation, giving Link time to Meteor Smash the opponent. Sometimes your opponent may actually go through the stage. 5a) Link has a slew of hidden tactics. An example is the use of his Down Smash. After 14% damage, Link can use his D-Throw>D-Smash strategy. However, on opponents like Fox, Falco and C. Falcon, Link can use his D-Smash multiple times before linking into a combo. So basically, his D-Smash is a combo starter. 5b) If you really want some combos, try, at higher percentages, using Link's U-Tilt>B-Air>B-Air and finish off with his Spin Attack. You can also D-Throw>U-Special/D-Smash at high percentages to keep the opponent at bay, either vertically or horizontally. 6) His jab attack can cancel out into either his Tilts or even Smash attacks. See, due to the low ending lag of his second jab, as well as its trapping capability, Link can damage opponents more than his normal jab combo. Try AA>S-Tilt, for example. It has roughly the same speed as his normal jab, and the opponent won't have enough time to react before it strikes; at higher percentages, it's basically a KO move. 7) Link can take advantage of characters that are sent upwards and have not begun to fall. See, if the opponent did not begin their falling animation, Link can take advantage and use his powerful aerial attacks (F-air or U-Air are the best for this situation) and dominate against characters, despite his supposed "poor mobility".

You cannot prejudge a character because of their mobility alone. You have to think outside the box, try doing something you don't normally do, and you'll be surprised at what you can actually discover. While I agree with most of what Link's weaknesses are in Melee, there are overwhelming strengths left undiscovered. Requiem of Ice (talk) 12:30, 26 November 2013 (EST)