Talk:Nerf

Seems reasonable. When the SSBB tier list comes out, there will defintely be changes and revises. ItemHazard 20:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC) ItemHazard

Are you sure about the whole "moves nerfed" thing? We're clearly talking about entire characters.

Please sign your comments. And saying an entire CHARACTER was nerfed would imply that said character was previously terribly unbalanced, which wasn't the case. In addition, some characters have had one move nerfed and another buffed, like Kirby.- Gargomon251 (talk) 21:51, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Yoshi?

Exactly how did he get nerfed in Brawl? --Posted by Pikamander2 (Talk) at 17:39, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

You need to read the section header. "Characters that got attacks nerfed." Then, read the section I linked you to, Yoshi_(SSBB)#Changes_from_Melee_to_Brawl. His smashes are weaker; Yoshi Bomb is weaker; Egg Toss got nerfed, even if it got buffed in other ways; Egg Roll was nerfed. Perhaps you should have discussed before reverting? --Shadowcrest 14:51, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

After I placed ^^that^^ comment, I waited several days, but nobody gave a reason. So I removed Yoshi from the list. When you reverted it, I didn't notice the link, which is why I said to give a good reason. I re-added Yoshi to the list, but I really think that we should list which attacks a character had nerfed, instead of just saying that their attacks got nerfed in general. --Posted by Pikamander2 (Talk) at 21:04, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I was far ruder than necessary above. I apologize; that was uncalled for.

I agree that the current section is far too broad, since I'm sure (not sure, but generally convinced) that most veteran characters will have had a move or something else nerfed from melee to brawl. However, I don't think listing each trait that was nerfed is the best option, because the page would get to be long and unweildy. But I can't think of any other conceivable method to do it. Suggestions? --Shadowcrest 21:31, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmm...delete!

Delete - This is a bit of a dubious article in the first place. Our focus should really be on how the characters play and not how well they play. Since so much is dependent on individual player styles and skill levels, not to mention that all the games play on completely different physics engines, you can't objectively say whether one move is "better" than it was. Granted, there are some obvious ones like Peach's down-smash that are indisputable, but I don't think there's any need for it to be captured in an article. --RJM ^Talk 20:14, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Delete - This is basically just a small tier list that anyone can edit. --Posted by Pikamander2 (Talk) at 21:04, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Nerfing/buffing strikes me to be somewhat akin to clones; something that's not official, somewhat left up to individual judgment, but nonetheless a definite topic of discussion in the community. Documenting that so-and-so's back air now does less damage and/or knockback is less subjective than, say, the tier list, so I don't think there's a problem with subjectivity. I believe this stuff has been researched to some degree, but I leave it an exercise to the reader to find the appropriate SWF threads. But even if the page does suggest something about a character being better or worse, it needn't be normative--that is, it can describe general sentiments in the community without authoritatively declaring them to be truth. (BTW, Randall, you probably should tack on a delete tag to the article if you're really nominating it.) --Kirby King 21:27, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Again, I think because you're dealing with two fundamentally different gaming platforms, the red flag of subjectivity is automatically raised. A character's "strength" is relative to the game in which they appear. You wouldn't describe Lucas (SSBB) as a clone of Ness (SSBM) in the same way that it's meaningless to say that Mario's back air is stronger in Brawl than it was in Melee because the conditions that affect the move's power are not equal. If a character's overall strength is being graded on uneven playing fields, I don't think objectivity is achievable. Oddly though, my own reasoning makes it perfectly okay to discuss how a clone character was nerfed within his own game (i.e. Luigi Cyclone > Mario Tornado) :^) --RJM ^Talk 21:41, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

That's a case for not taking things too literally, I guess, when it comes to things like how much damage a move does, etc. I would still say there's enough of a general sentiment that "nerfing" exists (and to some extent who it affects) that would at minimum warrant an article discussing what nerfing is/means, and probably (obvious) examples of characters/moves being nerfed. I don't even think it matters whether or not this would be considered subjective, because the article does not need to describe what is as much as it might describe what the community thinks is; it's the difference between tier list saying that "Meta Knight is better than Captain Falcon" and "The SBR says Meta Knight is better than Captain Falcon". It's certainly within the scope of SmashWiki to report on subjective issues, if the subjectivity can be objectively documented. :) --Kirby King 22:03, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Righto, makes sense to me. So shift the focus away from who got nerfed to what nerfed means, citing the obvious examples but leaving nothing subjectively questionable without reporting the source of the subjectivity. Objectively. :^) --RJM ^Talk 02:29, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Keep - Per the discussion below, the article should be kept, but should be cleaned up into less of a list of characters and more of an explanation about nerfed characters and some good examples. --RJM ^Talk 02:29, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Keep - wat is up with people and deleting? the info, no matter how useless, can always be called upon for later. i think this page is too vague: it needs more info. hit me back with why u wont it gone.

Keep - There's no real reason to get rid of this, as it is true. Cheezperson (talk) 02:31, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Huh?

How did Yoshi, Samus, and Ganon all get nerfed? - GalaxiaD (talk) 23:14, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Yoshi got nerfed like Kirby did in Melee, but Samus and Ganondorf are still very powerful and heavy. Come to think of it, Ganondorf's Up B is weaker, the Dark Choke doesn't really count, and he has a weaker Uaerial. Samus just has a weaker Ftilt and Neutral Air. Her other attacks are far stronger. Keep!!! Blue Ninjakoopa ^{Talk to me} 21:14, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I know we just voted to keep this article, but rather than exemplifying why the article was nominated for deletion in the first place, it'd be nice if you guys would read the discussion that ensued (specifically, the part about what the article should look like). You'll note that the discussion concluded that simply listing characters as "nerfed" without community (Smash community, not SmashWiki community) consensus or an explanation was bad. --Kirby King 22:30, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Yoshi (Second time)

There's an inconsistency between the Buffed and Nerfed pages, where Yoshi was buffed in a minor way from Melee to Brawl, but nerfed in a major way from Melee to Brawl. How does this happen? Friedbeef1 Argue 21:17, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Some IP moved Yoshi from minorly nerfed in Brawl to majorly nerfed. --Posted by Pikamander2 (Talk) at 23:17, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

But still, it wouldn't make sense to have a character buffed and nerfed at the same time. The way I see it, it should be that it evens out. Friedbeef1 Argue 23:54, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Specifics

It's great having a page which describes what "nerfed" is, but without further explanation and specific rationale for each character / move on the list, it is a useless list, and should be removed. Zixor (talk) 22:53, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Yoshi (third time)

He's nerfed. Deal with it. Link got buffed according to the SWF Link guide author, and Ganon is still very powerful although some of his moves are somewhat useless. LOL Blue Ninjakoopa 18:38, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Toon Link/ Young Link

Are they really the same characters? I mean, sure they are both clones of link, but is that enough? If you say yes, because they have the same move set, then wolf/falco/fox is the same, pichu/pikachu is the same, marth/roy is the same, and toon link/link/young link are the same.--Kill Maim (talk) 12:22, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Ganondorf's u-smash and u-tilt

Now you do have a point but they should still be included as they were weakened in Brawl. Fox's u-smash is often considered to be the best u-smash in Brawl but it was still weaker than it was in Melee. Therefore it is included and Ganondorf's u-smash should be as well. As for his u-tilt. it did get faster (if only slightly) and the vacuum effect makes it much easier to land, but it was weakened enough to still be mentioned on this page.

As for some exact numbers, I found these %s from the center of Pokemon Stadium on Bowser in both games. It is difficult to judge a difference of power between the two games, but these differences are large enough to be notable. As for his Melee u-smash, the first kick uncharged KOs at 86% while his Brawl uncharged sweetspotted u-smash KOs at 106%. As for the u-tilt, it KOs at 22% in Melee while KOing at 50% in Brawl if sweetspotted. Also, you're wrong about Ganondorf's sourspotted u-smash being stronger than Snake's u-tilt. The former KOs Bowser at 128% while the latter KOs him at 113%. Omega Tyrant 21:34, May 13, 2010 (UTC)