448
edits
mNo edit summary |
Mariogeek2 (talk | contribs) m (→Normal landing: Melee Pichu has 2 frames of empty landing lag: https://smashboards.com/threads/ssbm-statistics-list.30064/) |
||
(4 intermediate revisions by 3 users not shown) | |||
Line 5: | Line 5: | ||
==Start-up lag== | ==Start-up lag== | ||
[[File:StartLag.gif|thumb | [[File:StartLag.gif|thumb|{{SSBM|Ganondorf}}'s [[up tilt]] has a significant amount of start-up lag in ''Melee'']] | ||
'''Start-up lag''', also known as just '''start-up''' and '''windup''', is the delay between a move being initiated and the move having an effect, such as the length of time before a [[hitbox]] is first produced. The fastest any move can come out is on frame 1 (1/60th of a second) and the more frames it takes for a move to come out, the longer its startup lag will be. Examples of moves with extreme start-up lag include [[Ganondorf]]'s [[Warlock Punch]] and [[King Dedede]]'s [[forward smash]]. Examples of moves with no start-up lag include [[Fox]]'s (in ''SSB'' and ''Melee'') and {{SSBM|Falco}}'s [[Reflector]] in ''Melee'' and [[Jigglypuff]]'s [[Rest]] in ''SSB'' and ''Melee''. [[Flinching]] during start-up will prevent the move from being executed, unless the move grants the character [[invincibility]]/[[intangibility]] or [[armor]]. | '''Start-up lag''', also known as just '''start-up''' and '''windup''', is the delay between a move being initiated and the move having an effect, such as the length of time before a [[hitbox]] is first produced. The fastest any move can come out is on frame 1 (1/60th of a second) and the more frames it takes for a move to come out, the longer its startup lag will be. Examples of moves with extreme start-up lag include [[Ganondorf]]'s [[Warlock Punch]] and [[King Dedede]]'s [[forward smash]]. Examples of moves with no start-up lag include [[Fox]]'s (in ''SSB'' and ''Melee'') and {{SSBM|Falco}}'s [[Reflector]] in ''Melee'' and [[Jigglypuff]]'s [[Rest]] in ''SSB'' and ''Melee''. [[Flinching]] during start-up will prevent the move from being executed, unless the move grants the character [[invincibility]]/[[intangibility]] or [[armor]]. | ||
The primary advantage of lower start-up lag is that the attack gives the opponent less reaction time, as well as the ability to hit before other attacks, giving the user greater flexibility in being able to land the attack (making such attacks all-around easier to land). Moves with lower startup lag can be used in a greater amount of situations, such as being a pressure escaping tool or as a [[punishment]] option. Moves with higher startup lag however cannot be used in nearly as many situations as the opponent can usually punish the attacker for simply throwing out the move before it can connect. Moves with very high startup lag are rarely used as a result, only being useful as a risky hard punish or as a [[shield break]] punish in most situations. While not always true, characters with fast frame data attacks tend to be more successful in competitive play than those with slow frame data attacks; part of the reason why characters such as [[Pikachu]], [[Fox]], [[Sheik]], and [[Meta Knight]] typically rank in the top or high tiers in ''Smash'' tier lists is that the general start-up lag of their attacks are among the fastest. Conversely, a major part of why characters such as [[Ganondorf]] are typically ranked as low tier characters is that the general start-up lag of their attacks are among the slowest. While low startup on attacks is certainly beneficial, it is not required if a character has a trait significant enough to make up for it. For example, {{SSBU|Shulk}} in ''Ultimate'' is commonly ranked as a high tier or top tier character despite having slow startup on almost all of his moves. To compensate, he possesses his [[Monado Arts]] which allow him to adapt to any situation, as well as outstanding [[range]] with some of the largest disjoints in the game, allowing him to | The primary advantage of lower start-up lag is that the attack gives the opponent less reaction time, as well as the ability to hit before other attacks, giving the user greater flexibility in being able to land the attack (making such attacks all-around easier to land). Moves with lower startup lag can be used in a greater amount of situations, such as being a pressure escaping tool or as a [[punishment]] option. Moves with higher startup lag however cannot be used in nearly as many situations as the opponent can usually punish the attacker for simply throwing out the move before it can connect. Moves with very high startup lag are rarely used as a result, only being useful as a risky hard punish or as a [[shield break]] punish in most situations. While not always true, characters with fast frame data attacks tend to be more successful in competitive play than those with slow frame data attacks; part of the reason why characters such as [[Pikachu]], [[Fox]], [[Sheik]], and [[Meta Knight]] typically rank in the top or high tiers in ''Smash'' tier lists is that the general start-up lag of their attacks are among the fastest. Conversely, a major part of why characters such as [[Ganondorf]] are typically ranked as low tier characters is that the general start-up lag of their attacks are among the slowest. While low startup on attacks is certainly beneficial, it is not required if a character has a trait significant enough to make up for it. For example, {{SSBU|Shulk}} in ''Ultimate'' is commonly ranked as a high tier or top tier character despite having slow startup on almost all of his moves. To compensate, he possesses his [[Monado Arts]] which allow him to adapt to any situation, as well as outstanding [[range]] with some of the largest disjoints in the game, allowing him to attack from far enough away to be out of range for many characters to punish. | ||
<gallery widths="200px"> | <gallery widths="200px"> | ||
Ganondorf Neutral B SSBU.gif|Ganondorf's [[Warlock Punch]] has an extreme amount of start-up lag. | Ganondorf Neutral B SSBU.gif|Ganondorf's [[Warlock Punch]] has an extreme amount of start-up lag. | ||
Line 15: | Line 15: | ||
==Ending lag== | ==Ending lag== | ||
'''Ending lag''', often officially referred to as '''vulnerability''' and also known as '''cool down''' and '''recovery''' in other fighting games, is the delay between a move's effect finishing and another action being available to begin, such as the length of time after an attack's hitboxes ceases before the character can move again. The vast majority of attacks have more ending lag than startup lag, though generally, attacks with lower start-up lag tend to have proportionally more ending lag and vice versa. Attacks such as [[Rest]], [[Ike]]'s [[forward smash]], and [[Mega Man]]'s [[up tilt]] are notorious for having an extreme amount of ending lag. Moves known for having especially low ending lag include {{SSBB|Meta Knight}}'s [[up aerial]] in ''Brawl'', [[Zero Suit Samus]]'s down smash, and [[Mr. Game & Watch]]'s [[up smash]]. Typically, an attack's ending lag can't be avoided, but some attacks can avoid ending lag without the character being flinched or [[priority|out-prioritised]], such as grabbing a [[ledge]] with a recovery move before it ends, and jump canceling Fox's and Falco's Reflector in ''Melee''. Additionally, aerials can avoid their ending lag by the character landing before completion; despite this inducing landing lag, it can be overall faster if the character lands soon enough and the attack's landing lag is low enough (a prominent example of this is Ike's [[neutral aerial]], which has a huge amount of ending lag, but rather low landing lag, thus landing earlier can be utilised to circumvent the attack's high ending lag). Also, if a character using a | '''Ending lag''', often officially referred to as '''vulnerability''' and also known as '''cool down''' and '''recovery''' in other fighting games, is the delay between a move's effect finishing and another action being available to begin, such as the length of time after an attack's hitboxes ceases before the character can move again. The vast majority of attacks have more ending lag than startup lag, though generally, attacks with lower start-up lag tend to have proportionally more ending lag and vice versa. Attacks such as [[Rest]], [[Ike]]'s [[forward smash]], and [[Mega Man]]'s [[up tilt]] are notorious for having an extreme amount of ending lag. Moves known for having especially low ending lag include {{SSBB|Meta Knight}}'s [[up aerial]] in ''Brawl'', [[Zero Suit Samus]]'s down smash, and [[Mr. Game & Watch]]'s [[up smash]]. Typically, an attack's ending lag can't be avoided, but some attacks can avoid ending lag without the character being flinched or [[priority|out-prioritised]], such as grabbing a [[ledge]] with a recovery move before it ends, and jump canceling Fox's and Falco's Reflector in ''Melee''. Additionally, aerials can avoid their ending lag by the character landing before completion; despite this inducing landing lag, it can be overall faster if the character lands soon enough and the attack's landing lag is low enough (a prominent example of this is Ike's [[neutral aerial]], which has a huge amount of ending lag, but rather low landing lag, thus landing earlier can be utilised to circumvent the attack's high ending lag). Also, if a character using a grounded normal attack becomes airborne before the attack finishes (such as from being pushed off by [[wind]] or the [[platform]] underneath them disappearing), the attack will abruptly end with the user free to move, thus avoiding the attack's ending lag (though [[special moves]] will continue if this occurs while using them). {{SSBU|Steve}} can exploit this quirk particularly well by building a [[Mine / Craft / Create Block|block]] and then using a ground move while standing atop it. When the block breaks, the move is instantly canceled, allowing Steve to immediately perform another action. | ||
The less ending lag | The less ending lag an attack has, the less time an opponent has to [[punish]] it if it whiffs, and thus the safer it is to use. Attacks with low ending lag are also more effective at [[combo]]ing, as they allow a greater window for the attacker to attack again before the opponent can respond. An example of this in ''Smash 64'' can be seen with {{SSB|Kirby}} and {{SSB|Donkey Kong}}'s [[up tilt]]s. Both up tilts have the same startup lag but Kirby's has much less ending lag, which makes it drastically harder to punish as well as making it a much more effective combo tool compared to Donkey Kong's. While having attacks with low ending lag is considered important in competitive play and characters higher up on the [[tier list]] often tend to have low ending lag across their moveset, it isn't held in equal regard to start-up lag. [[Marth]], for example, is considered a top or high tier character in most ''Smash'' games, despite most of his attacks having high ending lag, whereas there are few highly-ranked characters or particularly effective moves in any of the games that have comparatively high start-up lag. Jigglypuff's [[Rest]] (especially in ''SSB'' and ''Melee'') is the epitome of this, as despite having the highest ending lag of any attack in the series, its almost instantaneous start-up lag (coupled with its extreme power) makes it one of Jigglypuff's best moves. Conversely, Ganondorf's up tilt in ''Melee'' and ''Brawl'' has comparable power with much lower ending lag, but its start-up lag is so ridiculously high that the move is almost impossible to land without the opponent being stunned from a shield break, in a position where they have no choice but to position themselves within its reach (such as attempting to [[recover]] or evade a stage hazard), or having already committed to an action that will put them in the attack's reach (i.e. Ganondorf successfully [[Mindgame#Read|reading]] his opponent), and thus it is almost never used in competitive play. The few moves that are very effective in spite of high start-up lag often have a combination of significant attributes besides proportionally low ending lag. {{SSBB|Lucario}}'s forward smash in ''Brawl'', for instance, is considered to be one of the best forward smashes in the game despite being one of the slowest in start-up, as the move not only has very low ending lag, but also has potentially extreme power when at high [[Aura]] and disjointed reach, making it one of the few powerful KO moves that can often be used at ranges at which it is unpunishable. | ||
<gallery widths="200px"> | <gallery widths="200px"> | ||
Jigglypuff Down Special Hitbox Melee.gif|Jigglypuff's Rest has extreme ending lag, leaving it wide open for a punish. | Jigglypuff Down Special Hitbox Melee.gif|Jigglypuff's Rest has extreme ending lag, leaving it wide open for a punish. | ||
Line 26: | Line 26: | ||
===Normal landing=== | ===Normal landing=== | ||
When landing under normal circumstances, characters undergo either a "light landing" (also known as a "no-impact land") or a "heavy landing". In ''Melee'', there was only one type of normal landing animation so most characters have a 4 frame landing animation, regardless of how fast they are falling (which a few exceptions). Light landings incur only 2 frames of lag (4 frames in ''Smash 64''), whereas heavy landings are character-specific (after ''Smash 64'' where all heavy landings had 8 frames of landing lag), ranging from | When landing under normal circumstances, characters undergo either a "light landing" (also known as a "no-impact land") or a "heavy landing". In ''Melee'', there was only one type of normal landing animation so most characters have a 4 frame landing animation, regardless of how fast they are falling (which a few exceptions). Light landings incur only 2 frames of lag (4 frames in ''Smash 64''), whereas heavy landings are character-specific (after ''Smash 64'' where all heavy landings had 8 frames of landing lag), ranging from 2 to 6. The type of landing that occurs is based on the character's downwards speed upon landing. In ''Smash 64'', the difference between a light and hard landing was as simple as whether the player was either falling normally or [[fast fall]]ing. Starting from ''Brawl'' however, a heavy landing occurs once a player has been falling at their maximum falling speed for a set amount of time (the amount of time is character dependent), so landing during the apex of a jump or on an upwards-moving platform tends to be faster than landing from a fastfall or on a downwards-moving platform. | ||
===Aerial landing=== | ===Aerial landing=== | ||
[[File:Punishment Snake F-air Lag KO Brawl.gif|thumb | [[File:Punishment Snake F-air Lag KO Brawl.gif|thumb|250px|An example of landing lag, in which an improperly timed aerial attack with noticeable amount of landing lag (such as {{SSBB|Snake}}'s [[forward aerial]]) can lead to getting [[punishment|punished]].]] | ||
[[File:Lcancelink.gif|thumb|Another example of landing lag, along with the effect of [[L-cancelling]] in ''Melee''. The red Link L-cancels, and can input his shield in half the time of the green Link.]] | [[File:Lcancelink.gif|thumb|Another example of landing lag, along with the effect of [[L-cancelling]] in ''Melee''. The red Link L-cancels, and can input his shield in half the time of the green Link.]] | ||
If a character lands while in the middle of an [[aerial attack]], they go through a unique animation that lasts for significantly longer than a normal landing. This animation is not automatically determined. The game has to call for a flag which starts on a pre determined frame in order for the aerial landing lag animation to occur. Any time a character lands while this flag is not activated, they will enter their normal landing animation (this is known as an [[auto-cancel]]). A clear example of an aerial landing animation can be seen with [[Link]]'s [[down aerial]]; hitting the ground during the attack results in Link's sword getting stuck, and he has to spend a significant amount of time pulling it out before he can do anything else (especially prior to ''Smash 4''). Each aerial attack has its own amount of landing lag. Naturally, the less landing lag, the better; for the same reasons as why less ending lag is beneficial. Most [[special move]]s tend to continue execution instead of being interrupted when the user lands while using them, though a few undergo their own unique landing animation if the character lands after initiating them in the air, such as [[Falcon Kick]] and [[Wizard's Foot]] and some such as Fox's lasers prior to ''Smash 4'' will even make the character enter their normal landing animation. | If a character lands while in the middle of an [[aerial attack]], they go through a unique animation that lasts for significantly longer than a normal landing. This animation is not automatically determined. The game has to call for a flag which starts on a pre determined frame in order for the aerial landing lag animation to occur. Any time a character lands while this flag is not activated, they will enter their normal landing animation (this is known as an [[auto-cancel]]). A clear example of an aerial landing animation can be seen with [[Link]]'s [[down aerial]]; hitting the ground during the attack results in Link's sword getting stuck, and he has to spend a significant amount of time pulling it out before he can do anything else (especially prior to ''Smash 4''). Each aerial attack has its own amount of landing lag. Naturally, the less landing lag, the better; for the same reasons as why less ending lag is beneficial. Most [[special move]]s tend to continue execution instead of being interrupted when the user lands while using them, though a few undergo their own unique landing animation if the character lands after initiating them in the air, such as [[Falcon Kick]] and [[Wizard's Foot]] and some such as Fox's lasers prior to ''Smash 4'' will even make the character enter their normal landing animation. |
edits