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Talk:Professionals: Difference between revisions
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=== Anychar === | === Anychar === | ||
==== Somewherelandia ==== | ==== Somewherelandia ==== | ||
''[[Person1]], [[Person2]], [[Person3]]'' | ''<nowiki>[[Person1]], [[Person2]], [[Person3]]</nowiki>'' | ||
to | to | ||
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=== Anychar === | === Anychar === | ||
==== Somewherelandia ==== | ==== Somewherelandia ==== | ||
*[[Person1]] | <nowiki>*[[Person1]] | ||
*[[Person2]] | *[[Person2]] | ||
*[[Person3]] | *[[Person3]]</nowiki> | ||
get what I mean? Then plz, fix it. I'm too lazy myself. [[User:AltAcnt|Smiddle]] / <small>[[User talk:AltAcnt|talk]]</small> 11:23, November 12, 2006 (GMT) | get what I mean? Then plz, fix it. I'm too lazy myself. [[User:AltAcnt|Smiddle]] / <small>[[User talk:AltAcnt|talk]]</small> 11:23, November 12, 2006 (GMT) | ||
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==Obselete== | ==Obselete== | ||
:: I think that we definitely need a definition of a Pro Smasher. However either with or without one, this page remains obselete, and in fact, ugly and unappealing. We already have | :: I think that we definitely need a definition of a Pro Smasher. However either with or without one, this page remains obselete, and in fact, ugly and unappealing. We already have [:Category:Pros]], and these two pages have few similarities. I think this page should be done away with, while the Back Room takes up the issue in the meantime. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 01:04, December 5, 2006 (GMT) | ||
==Clean up!== | ==Clean up!== | ||
Every time I click onto this page, I keep seeing this ugly, terribly designed page. So I plan on cleaning it up, make something easier to look at and look up for reference. Although I do believe the topic above this one is very important, I still plan on making this thing pretty. Maybe we could just slap a label on this thing. The "neutrallity of this page may be questionable" or some such thing. I'd like to talk about it in the Back Room, but I really don't go on SWF that much, so I'm really not noticed. Case in point: I will make it a project to clean up this page and make it more practical. [[User:Oddeven2002|Oddeven2002]] 04:09, December 17, 2006 (GMT) | Every time I click onto this page, I keep seeing this ugly, terribly designed page. So I plan on cleaning it up, make something easier to look at and look up for reference. Although I do believe the topic above this one is very important, I still plan on making this thing pretty. Maybe we could just slap a label on this thing. The "neutrallity of this page may be questionable" or some such thing. I'd like to talk about it in the Back Room, but I really don't go on SWF that much, so I'm really not noticed. Case in point: I will make it a project to clean up this page and make it more practical. [[User:Oddeven2002|Oddeven2002]] 04:09, December 17, 2006 (GMT) | ||
:Did you note what I said? We do not need both | :Did you note what I said? We do not need both [:Category:Pros]] and this Professionals page. I think that if this page is to be cleaned up, it should instead be deleted and merged with [:Category:Pros]]. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 09:39, December 17, 2006 (GMT) | ||
::So how do you recomend we merge pages? How can we best represent the pros in a category, easy to find by character they use, and by country like how an encyclopedia should? Or is even reference by country necissary? [[User:Oddeven2002|Oddeven2002]] 17:55, December 17, 2006 (GMT) | ::So how do you recomend we merge pages? How can we best represent the pros in a category, easy to find by character they use, and by country like how an encyclopedia should? Or is even reference by country necissary? [[User:Oddeven2002|Oddeven2002]] 17:55, December 17, 2006 (GMT) | ||
:::We could do subcategories for the character specific pros, like [[:Category:Ice Climbers Pros]. Then if enough people thought that region is important enough, we could also do things like [[:Category:NorCal Pros]] or | :::We could do subcategories for the character specific pros, like [[:Category:Ice Climbers Pros]. Then if enough people thought that region is important enough, we could also do things like <nowiki>[[:Category:NorCal Pros]]</nowiki> or [:Category:Europe Pros]. These would be subcategories of [:Category:Pros]], that way everything would be automatically updated with the addition of new pros. | ||
::::I like the idea that the guy above said. It's sounds simple and clean.--[[User:OMNIVECTOR|Simna ibn Sind]] 21:51, December 17, 2006 (GMT) | ::::I like the idea that the guy above said. It's sounds simple and clean.--[[User:OMNIVECTOR|Simna ibn Sind]] 21:51, December 17, 2006 (GMT) | ||
:::::I think the idea sounds anything BUT simple and clean. We'll have too many categorys for a single article. Which, although by Wikipedia standards, is not out of the ordinary, I just think it's very messy and can be difficult due to the fact that actually finding the category themselves can be quite a task in itself. So I object it, but I don't deny it. Majority rules. Now, if it WERE to be put into play, would there also be a [[:Category:SoCal Smasher]] as well as [[:Category:SoCal Pros]]? [[User:Oddeven2002|Oddeven2002]] 22:03, December 17, 2006 (GMT) | :::::I think the idea sounds anything BUT simple and clean. We'll have too many categorys for a single article. Which, although by Wikipedia standards, is not out of the ordinary, I just think it's very messy and can be difficult due to the fact that actually finding the category themselves can be quite a task in itself. So I object it, but I don't deny it. Majority rules. Now, if it WERE to be put into play, would there also be a <nowiki>[[:Category:SoCal Smasher]]</nowiki> as well as <nowiki>[[:Category:SoCal Pros]]</nowiki>? [[User:Oddeven2002|Oddeven2002]] 22:03, December 17, 2006 (GMT) | ||
::::::Regional Smasher pages wouldn't be necessary, because when looking at representatives from a region, you would not want to find the dregs, but the stars. If done, we would probably begin with the most notable areas, i.e., Japan, NorCal, SoCal. One problem I see is of sub-regions. Would we do Pacific West along with SoCal/NorCal? What of the US as a whole? We could either exclude some of these, or make all of them and just have some players in multiple regions, such as [[Ken]], who would be in both Pacific West and SoCal. I suggest that we do all notable regions. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 23:24, December 17, 2006 (GMT) | ::::::Regional Smasher pages wouldn't be necessary, because when looking at representatives from a region, you would not want to find the dregs, but the stars. If done, we would probably begin with the most notable areas, i.e., Japan, NorCal, SoCal. One problem I see is of sub-regions. Would we do Pacific West along with SoCal/NorCal? What of the US as a whole? We could either exclude some of these, or make all of them and just have some players in multiple regions, such as [[Ken]], who would be in both Pacific West and SoCal. I suggest that we do all notable regions. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 23:24, December 17, 2006 (GMT) | ||
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OK, we've all just sort of batted these ideas around for a while, but I think it is time to act on them. Let's go ahead and do both the Famous Players category and the Character Pros categories. What exactly should we name the famous players page? There are some famous community members who don't actively play, many of whom are famous for things outside of but related to Smash, such as [[Gideon]], [[nealdt]], [[ZodiakLucien]], [[SuperDoodleMan]]. "Famous Players" doesn't address that. I'll start on taking this page and splitting up the players on it into their respective Character Pro pages. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 23:52, January 15, 2007 (GMT) | OK, we've all just sort of batted these ideas around for a while, but I think it is time to act on them. Let's go ahead and do both the Famous Players category and the Character Pros categories. What exactly should we name the famous players page? There are some famous community members who don't actively play, many of whom are famous for things outside of but related to Smash, such as [[Gideon]], [[nealdt]], [[ZodiakLucien]], [[SuperDoodleMan]]. "Famous Players" doesn't address that. I'll start on taking this page and splitting up the players on it into their respective Character Pro pages. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 23:52, January 15, 2007 (GMT) | ||
:Not sure if anyone's noticed, but I've started the | :Not sure if anyone's noticed, but I've started the [:Category:Character specific players]] category and subcategories. I'm not limiting it to skill of the player, instead I'm focusing on how skilled they are when compared to other players of the same character. For this reason players like [[Kawn]], DRGN,[[Mexican]], and [[Azn_Lep]] will be included. So far I have done Bowser, CF, DK, Yoshi, Young Link, and Zelda. Let me know what you guys think. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 00:05, January 23, 2007 (GMT) | ||
::Compared to other non-casual players(players that use advanced technique) of the same characters, DRGN, SideFX, Choknater, and yourself will have a very hard time justifying being in any pro list even a character specific ones. While I can't monitor who goes in to these categories completely because I don't know all of them personally, but I do know those players I mentioned and I can safely say that they are not prepared for pro status even if that is just in comparison to other non-casual players of the same character.--[[User:OMNIVECTOR|Simna ibn Sind]] 06:24, January 31, 2007 (GMT) | ::Compared to other non-casual players(players that use advanced technique) of the same characters, DRGN, SideFX, Choknater, and yourself will have a very hard time justifying being in any pro list even a character specific ones. While I can't monitor who goes in to these categories completely because I don't know all of them personally, but I do know those players I mentioned and I can safely say that they are not prepared for pro status even if that is just in comparison to other non-casual players of the same character.--[[User:OMNIVECTOR|Simna ibn Sind]] 06:24, January 31, 2007 (GMT) | ||
:::Are you taking into account what I've said about how they advance their character's metagame? DRGN is probably the best example of this, because so few players actually use a variety of Zelda's attacks. Some players have said that DRGN surpasses Kawn in that respect (but not altogether skill). If you took this into account I'll accept your revision. And for the record I think DRGN is the most qualified of the ones you removed. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 01:10, February 1, 2007 (GMT) | :::Are you taking into account what I've said about how they advance their character's metagame? DRGN is probably the best example of this, because so few players actually use a variety of Zelda's attacks. Some players have said that DRGN surpasses Kawn in that respect (but not altogether skill). If you took this into account I'll accept your revision. And for the record I think DRGN is the most qualified of the ones you removed. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 01:10, February 1, 2007 (GMT) | ||
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:Surely the top 25 European players deserve to be called professionals, and at least the top 10 in Canada and Australia. With a little coordinated effort, I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to publish a proper list; there's gotta be some people outside of the US who have an expansive knowledge of what the tournament scene is like in their own country and isn't just in it to stroke their own ego. | :Surely the top 25 European players deserve to be called professionals, and at least the top 10 in Canada and Australia. With a little coordinated effort, I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to publish a proper list; there's gotta be some people outside of the US who have an expansive knowledge of what the tournament scene is like in their own country and isn't just in it to stroke their own ego. | ||
*Japanese people? | *Japanese people? | ||
:Hahahaha all of them!...no but seriously, we run into a communication barrier with the Japanese smash community. I'm pretty sure we don't have an [[ | :Hahahaha all of them!...no but seriously, we run into a communication barrier with the Japanese smash community. I'm pretty sure we don't have an [[SmashBoards]] correspondent who knows how players are ranked, seeded and paid out in Japan all the time but it's probably safe to assume that they have a much larger community than it may seem on "our internet." Therefore, I have to assume that any videos or names of Japanese smashers that make their way into the hands of the English-speaking Smash community have gotta be the pros and that's about all the criteria we can judge on for now. Besides, watching Fumi and Aniki videos...without sounding too unencyclopedic...you can just tell. :^) | ||
'''But wait...''' | '''But wait...''' | ||
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'''Pro-Ams''' | '''Pro-Ams''' | ||
Then, when all of those little kinks are worked out and we have finally come up with a definition that isn't going to have people printing off the article to bring it to their contractual law office for clarification on the terms, we can make a new section for [[professional amateur|Pro-Ams]]. This is where I expect some dissent because at face value, it looks as though we'll run into precisely the same problem with defining "pro-am" as we have with "pro" just. I think it ought to go like this: | Then, when all of those little kinks are worked out and we have finally come up with a definition that isn't going to have people printing off the article to bring it to their contractual law office for clarification on the terms, we can make a new section for <nowiki>[[professional amateur|Pro-Ams]]</nowiki>. This is where I expect some dissent because at face value, it looks as though we'll run into precisely the same problem with defining "pro-am" as we have with "pro" just. I think it ought to go like this: | ||
:A '''professional amateur''' [[smasher]] is a person who plays the game at a competitive level, demonstrates a high level of technical skill and is reputed as such by their own local Smash community. | :A '''professional amateur''' [[smasher]] is a person who plays the game at a competitive level, demonstrates a high level of technical skill and is reputed as such by their own local Smash community. | ||
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This still leaves enough criterion for "pro-am" status that we won't have every person with an SWF account making a user page in the Pro-Am category. There has to at least be other competition in your area for your skills to be weighed. Most smashers grossly overestimate their own ability, but those that have that local competition at least offer a more realistic assessment of their own skill. It never hurts to have citation for your own Pro-Am status and using my own discretion, I could very easily pick out the participants at my own bi-weeklies that deserve it and those who don't. Someone else's opinion may or may not be valid, but it's better than creating an article with no basis whatsoever. | This still leaves enough criterion for "pro-am" status that we won't have every person with an SWF account making a user page in the Pro-Am category. There has to at least be other competition in your area for your skills to be weighed. Most smashers grossly overestimate their own ability, but those that have that local competition at least offer a more realistic assessment of their own skill. It never hurts to have citation for your own Pro-Am status and using my own discretion, I could very easily pick out the participants at my own bi-weeklies that deserve it and those who don't. Someone else's opinion may or may not be valid, but it's better than creating an article with no basis whatsoever. | ||
Obviously, you have to be realistic about SmashWiki and the community in general. Anyone can edit it and indeed, anyone will. Since we can't prevent the creation of new content of any kind, the best thing we can offer are guidelines on how it should be done. Not everyone will listen, but I have no doubt that more than one person who was considering adding to the "pros" section would find the accompanying link to | Obviously, you have to be realistic about SmashWiki and the community in general. Anyone can edit it and indeed, anyone will. Since we can't prevent the creation of new content of any kind, the best thing we can offer are guidelines on how it should be done. Not everyone will listen, but I have no doubt that more than one person who was considering adding to the "pros" section would find the accompanying link to Pro-Am even more appropriate. | ||
If the majority of people agree with my scary new terminology idea, let me know and I'll tackle it straight away, cleaning up and categorizing every article in [[:Category:Smashers]]--you have my word! :^) | If the majority of people agree with my scary new terminology idea, let me know and I'll tackle it straight away, cleaning up and categorizing every article in [[:Category:Smashers]]--you have my word! :^) | ||
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-- [[User:Randall00|Randall00]] 23:35, January 31, 2007 (GMT) | -- [[User:Randall00|Randall00]] 23:35, January 31, 2007 (GMT) | ||
:We've started to address this page in particular, and it will soon be done away with. The more correct pros list is in | :We've started to address this page in particular, and it will soon be done away with. The more correct pros list is in [:Category:Pros]]. For now leave this page alone, as many of the players here are being transferred into the [:Category:Character specific players]] page. There has already been talk of limiting this to the [[Smash Panel Power Rankings]] who along with common MLG entrants can be surely said to be pros. What about the [[NorCal Power Rankings]] and [[SoCal Power Rankings]]? I personally also consider these players pros. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 23:46, February 1, 2007 (GMT) | ||
::Who are you and where is this "talk" you speak of? The Smash Back Room that they didn't let me back into for some reason? I'd just like to see someone working on this and there's so many Talk pages spread across this wiki that it's hard to keep track of what's going on. The discussion needs to be localized somewhere if any progress is to be made. | ::Who are you and where is this "talk" you speak of? The Smash Back Room that they didn't let me back into for some reason? I'd just like to see someone working on this and there's so many Talk pages spread across this wiki that it's hard to keep track of what's going on. The discussion needs to be localized somewhere if any progress is to be made. | ||
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:I do disagree with a dollar value for one reason. Here is an example. A local player by the name of | :I do disagree with a dollar value for one reason. Here is an example. A local player by the name of Tomi-X has never defeated a pro in a tournament. However he occasionally skips out on competitor-heavy tournaments which he knows he can not win and instead will go to tournaments with more entrants but no skilled players. He will then walk away with somewhat large amounts of money. This player is not deserving of the title pro, in terms of ''skill''. But in empirical terms, he is. This discrepancy convinces me that a dollar amount is not possible as a term of judgment. | ||
:-- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 01:10, February 1, 2007 (GMT) | :-- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 01:10, February 1, 2007 (GMT) | ||
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:::What you are saying is that although we can easily assign the label to those who fit the criteria, we still maintain the ability to make our own judgemnts outside of the criteria which will add and remove players according to the discretion of, I assume, a number of chosen community members whose opinion can be counted on. I think this is a good idea. So, who are we to choose for this group of members? The committee can then evaluate those players in the | :::What you are saying is that although we can easily assign the label to those who fit the criteria, we still maintain the ability to make our own judgemnts outside of the criteria which will add and remove players according to the discretion of, I assume, a number of chosen community members whose opinion can be counted on. I think this is a good idea. So, who are we to choose for this group of members? The committee can then evaluate those players in the Pros Category and add and remove according to their decisions. As for this page, I have been moving many of the players here into their respective [:Category:Character specific players|Character Specific Pros pages]]. Once that task is done, I will put the page up for deletion. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 23:46, February 1, 2007 (GMT) | ||
::::Well, I don't really think it's necessary to come up with all kinds of committees and decision-making groups in order to maintain a fairly accurate list of Pros. Again, because this is a community-edited compendium of information, anytime that someone whose deserving of Pro status comes into question, the issue would just be brought up on the discussion page, opened up for voting and cleared up in that fashion. Maybe I'll even make a little template we could tag on to certain pages specifying that this "may not represent a worldwide view of the subject. ([discuss]])". :^) | ::::Well, I don't really think it's necessary to come up with all kinds of committees and decision-making groups in order to maintain a fairly accurate list of Pros. Again, because this is a community-edited compendium of information, anytime that someone whose deserving of Pro status comes into question, the issue would just be brought up on the discussion page, opened up for voting and cleared up in that fashion. Maybe I'll even make a little template we could tag on to certain pages specifying that this "may not represent a worldwide view of the subject. ([discuss]])". :^) | ||
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Well, what qualifies do you to be a professional? I mean, in Indiana they aren't any competions in my area. If I were to go to one, (Which KishPrime directs, and that's about an 1hr and 15 minutes away,) record a match, post it on YouTube, and if I had "professional" qualitites, could I keep my page? I mean, I'm no different than [[Dark.Pch]], other than I have no videos. I'm currently trying to get some of my school friends to join here, but they seem uninterested. What am I supposed to do? | Well, what qualifies do you to be a professional? I mean, in Indiana they aren't any competions in my area. If I were to go to one, (Which KishPrime directs, and that's about an 1hr and 15 minutes away,) record a match, post it on YouTube, and if I had "professional" qualitites, could I keep my page? I mean, I'm no different than [[Dark.Pch]], other than I have no videos. I'm currently trying to get some of my school friends to join here, but they seem uninterested. What am I supposed to do? | ||
[[ethanrodgers223 | [[ethanrodgers223] | ||
: Your suggestion would be fine. It's too bad to not have any competition in your area, but without videos and other players' experiences with you, it's hard to objectively judge your skill. {{User:MaskedMarth/sig}} 20:05, November 8, 2007 (EST) | : Your suggestion would be fine. It's too bad to not have any competition in your area, but without videos and other players' experiences with you, it's hard to objectively judge your skill. {{User:MaskedMarth/sig}} 20:05, November 8, 2007 (EST) | ||
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==Removal of Cort and other smashers== | ==Removal of Cort and other smashers== | ||
EndOfSummer, I took out "Cort" and the rest of the smashers who you said were pros because they weren't considered [[SW:NOTE|notable]] enough. In fact, Cort's page got deleted after some time, [http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/index.php?title=Special:Log/delete&page=Smasher:Cort see here]. I took out all of those Smashers because their own pages were all deleted at some point, and I decided to do some housekeeping. You can argue if you want that Cort is notable, but unless you have something that is considered notable by the policy I linked to above, I'm afraid that Cort will stay deleted and off the "Professionals" page. '''[[User:RAN1|<font color="darkred">R</font>]][[User talk:RAN1|<font color="navy">A</font>]][[Special:Contributions/RAN1|<font color="darkgreen">N</font>]]1''' 20:08, December 10, 2009 (UTC) | EndOfSummer, I took out "Cort" and the rest of the smashers who you said were pros because they weren't considered [[SW:NOTE|notable]] enough. In fact, Cort's page got deleted after some time, [http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/index.php?title=Special:Log/delete&page=Smasher:Cort see here]. I took out all of those Smashers because their own pages were all deleted at some point, and I decided to do some housekeeping. You can argue if you want that Cort is notable, but unless you have something that is considered notable by the policy I linked to above, I'm afraid that Cort will stay deleted and off the "Professionals" page. '''[[User:RAN1|<font color="darkred">R</font>]][[User talk:RAN1|<font color="navy">A</font>]][[Special:Contributions/RAN1|<font color="darkgreen">N</font>]]1''' 20:08, December 10, 2009 (UTC) | ||
:why dont you look at north atlantic power rankings stupid RAN1. hes ranked #7. u dont kno anything about pros. just cuz theyre marked as red doesnt mean theyre "notable". tyrant doesnt have an article. hes one of the best brawl players | :why dont you look at north atlantic power rankings stupid RAN1. hes ranked #7. u dont kno anything about pros. just cuz theyre marked as red doesnt mean theyre "notable". tyrant doesnt have an article. hes one of the best brawl players <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:EndOfSummer|EndOfSummer]] ([[User talk:EndOfSummer|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/EndOfSummer|contribs]]) 20:13, 10 December 2009 (UTC)</small> | ||
::I just restored Cort's article - no idea why it was deleted in the first place, as he's plenty notable. Also, EndOfSummer: [[SmashWiki:No personal attacks|please don't call other users "stupid"]]. '''''<span style="font-family:Arial;">[[User:PenguinofDeath|<font color="silver">Penguin</font>]][[User talk:PenguinofDeath|<font color="gray">of</font>]][[Special:Contributions/PenguinofDeath|<font color="silver">Death</font>]]</span>''''' 20:30, December 10, 2009 (UTC) | ::I just restored Cort's article - no idea why it was deleted in the first place, as he's plenty notable. Also, EndOfSummer: [[SmashWiki:No personal attacks|please don't call other users "stupid"]]. '''''<span style="font-family:Arial;">[[User:PenguinofDeath|<font color="silver">Penguin</font>]][[User talk:PenguinofDeath|<font color="gray">of</font>]][[Special:Contributions/PenguinofDeath|<font color="silver">Death</font>]]</span>''''' 20:30, December 10, 2009 (UTC) | ||