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'''This is the talk page for the locked article Professionals.  If you want to make any changes, please ask here.'''
'''This is the talk page for the locked article Professionals.  If you want to make any changes, please ask here.'''


== What to do with this page? ==
==What to do with this page?==
I really don't think this page is a good idea. First, what constitutes a "professional"? Whomever any editor thinks should be listed here? And once we've started listing "professionals", where do we stop? Do we list everyone who's ever played that character with any semblence of skill? Why is Pictish Freak listed here when said he quit over a year ago? Same with Masashi, who only plays for fun anymore (which sorta goes against the standard definition of "professional").
I really don't think this page is a good idea. First, what constitutes a "professional"? Whomever any editor thinks should be listed here? And once we've started listing "professionals", where do we stop? Do we list everyone who's ever played that character with any semblence of skill? Why is Pictish Freak listed here when said he quit over a year ago? Same with Masashi, who only plays for fun anymore (which sorta goes against the standard definition of "professional").


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My point is this: a wiki is supposed to be a collection of factual information. This page is meaningless and will draw unending flames without a definite idea of what it should consist of. --[[User:Nealdt|nealdt]] 20:17, August 1, 2006 (GMT)
My point is this: a wiki is supposed to be a collection of factual information. This page is meaningless and will draw unending flames without a definite idea of what it should consist of. --[[User:Nealdt|nealdt]] 20:17, August 1, 2006 (GMT)
Yeah, I agree. Destroy it. [[User:Tuth|<span style="color: blue;">Tuth the tough Mii</span>]] [[User talk:Tuth|''<span style="color: red;">You got owned!</span>'']] [[Special:Contributions/Tuth|''<span style="color: cyan;">Visit Mint Brick Wiki!</span>'']]


==My rebuttal==
==My rebuttal==
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There is a new tier list, should this all follow the order it goes in now?[[User:Iggy K|Iggy K]] 07:18, August 7, 2006 (GMT)
There is a new tier list, should this all follow the order it goes in now?[[User:Iggy K|Iggy K]] 07:18, August 7, 2006 (GMT)


== Hoshikabi & HoshinoKirby ==
==Hoshikabi & HoshinoKirby==
 
These aren't the same player????  The romanization of the japanese spelling of Kirby is kaabii.
These aren't the same player????  The romanization of the japanese spelling of Kirby is kaabii.


*headdesk*  Yeah, you're right man.  Hoshikabi = HoshinoKirby.  Good call there :)  *is an idjot*
*headdesk*  Yeah, you're right man.  Hoshikabi = HoshinoKirby.  Good call there :)  *is an idjot*


== Pain in the @$$ ==
==Pain in the @$$==
 
There is a thing somebody can do to make it look more wikified, but it's a pain in the @$$. It is doing the following:
There is a thing somebody can do to make it look more wikified, but it's a pain in the @$$. It is doing the following:


=== Anychar ===
=== Anychar ===
==== Somewherelandia ====
==== Somewherelandia ====
''[[Person1]], [[Person2]], [[Person3]]''
''<nowiki>[[Person1]], [[Person2]], [[Person3]]</nowiki>''


to
to
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=== Anychar ===
=== Anychar ===
==== Somewherelandia ====
==== Somewherelandia ====
*[[Person1]]
<nowiki>*[[Person1]]
*[[Person2]]
*[[Person2]]
*[[Person3]]
*[[Person3]]</nowiki>


get what I mean? Then plz, fix it. I'm too lazy myself. [[User:AltAcnt|Smiddle]] / <small>[[User talk:AltAcnt|talk]]</small> 11:23, November 12, 2006 (GMT)
get what I mean? Then plz, fix it. I'm too lazy myself. [[User:AltAcnt|Smiddle]] / <small>[[User talk:AltAcnt|talk]]</small> 11:23, November 12, 2006 (GMT)


 
:I'll start fixing it xD  
I'll start fixing it xD  
[[User:AltAcnt|Janitor]] 8:59, May 7, 2007 (GMT)
[[User:AltAcnt|Janitor]] 8:59, May 7, 2007 (GMT)
 
:Fixed.  You're welcome.
Fixed.  You're welcome.
[[User:AltAcnt|Kefka]] 12:41, May 8, 2007
[[User:AltAcnt|Kefka]] 12:41, May 8, 2007


== Obselete ==
==Obselete==
 
:: I think that we definitely need a definition of a Pro Smasher. However either with or without one, this page remains obselete, and in fact, ugly and unappealing. We already have [:Category:Pros]], and these two pages have few similarities. I think this page should be done away with, while the Back Room takes up the issue in the meantime. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 01:04, December 5, 2006 (GMT)
:: I think that we definitely need a definition of a Pro Smasher. However either with or without one, this page remains obselete, and in fact, ugly and unappealing. We already have [[:Category:Pros]], and these two pages have few similarities. I think this page should be done away with, while the Back Room takes up the issue in the meantime. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 01:04, December 5, 2006 (GMT)
 


==Clean up!==
==Clean up!==
: Every time I click onto this page, I keep seeing this ugly, terribly designed page. So I plan on cleaning it up, make something easier to look at and look up for reference. Although I do believe the topic above this one is very important, I still plan on making this thing pretty. Maybe we could just slap a label on this thing. The "neutrallity of this page may be questionable" or some such thing. I'd like to talk about it in the Back Room, but I really don't go on SWF that much, so I'm really not noticed. Case in point: I will make it a project to clean up this page and make it more practical. [[User:Oddeven2002|Oddeven2002]] 04:09, December 17, 2006 (GMT)
Every time I click onto this page, I keep seeing this ugly, terribly designed page. So I plan on cleaning it up, make something easier to look at and look up for reference. Although I do believe the topic above this one is very important, I still plan on making this thing pretty. Maybe we could just slap a label on this thing. The "neutrallity of this page may be questionable" or some such thing. I'd like to talk about it in the Back Room, but I really don't go on SWF that much, so I'm really not noticed. Case in point: I will make it a project to clean up this page and make it more practical. [[User:Oddeven2002|Oddeven2002]] 04:09, December 17, 2006 (GMT)
 
:Did you note what I said? We do not need both [:Category:Pros]] and this Professionals page. I think that if this page is to be cleaned up, it should instead be deleted and merged with [:Category:Pros]]. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 09:39, December 17, 2006 (GMT)
:: Did you note what I said? We do not need both [[:Category:Pros]] and this Professionals page. I think that if this page is to be cleaned up, it should instead be deleted and merged with [[:Category:Pros]]. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 09:39, December 17, 2006 (GMT)
::So how do you recomend we merge pages? How can we best represent the pros in a category, easy to find by character they use, and by country like how an encyclopedia should? Or is even reference by country necissary? [[User:Oddeven2002|Oddeven2002]] 17:55, December 17, 2006 (GMT)
 
:::We could do subcategories for the character specific pros, like [[:Category:Ice Climbers Pros]. Then if enough people thought that region is important enough, we could also do things like <nowiki>[[:Category:NorCal Pros]]</nowiki> or [:Category:Europe Pros]. These would be subcategories of [:Category:Pros]], that way everything would be automatically updated with the addition of new pros.
:: So how do you recomend we merge pages? How can we best represent the pros in a category, easy to find by character they use, and by country like how an encyclopedia should? Or is even reference by country necissary? [[User:Oddeven2002|Oddeven2002]] 17:55, December 17, 2006 (GMT)
 
:::We could do subcategories for the character specific pros, like [[:Category:Ice Climbers Pros]]. Then if enough people thought that region is important enough, we could also do things like [[:Category:NorCal Pros]] or [[:Category:Europe Pros]]. These would be subcategories of [[:Category:Pros]], that way everything would be automatically updated with the addition of new pros.
 
::::I like the idea that the guy above said.  It's sounds simple and clean.--[[User:OMNIVECTOR|Simna ibn Sind]] 21:51, December 17, 2006 (GMT)
::::I like the idea that the guy above said.  It's sounds simple and clean.--[[User:OMNIVECTOR|Simna ibn Sind]] 21:51, December 17, 2006 (GMT)
 
:::::I think the idea sounds anything BUT simple and clean. We'll have too many categorys for a single article. Which, although by Wikipedia standards, is not out of the ordinary, I just think it's very messy and can be difficult due to the fact that actually finding the category themselves can be quite a task in itself. So I object it, but I don't deny it. Majority rules. Now, if it WERE to be put into play, would there also be a <nowiki>[[:Category:SoCal Smasher]]</nowiki> as well as <nowiki>[[:Category:SoCal Pros]]</nowiki>? [[User:Oddeven2002|Oddeven2002]] 22:03, December 17, 2006 (GMT)
:::::I think the idea sounds anything BUT simple and clean. We'll have too many categorys for a single article. Which, although by Wikipedia standards, is not out of the ordinary, I just think it's very messy and can be difficult due to the fact that actually finding the category themselves can be quite a task in itself. So I object it, but I don't deny it. Majority rules. Now, if it WERE to be put into play, would there also be a [[:Category:SoCal Smasher]] as well as [[:Category:SoCal Pros]]? [[User:Oddeven2002|Oddeven2002]] 22:03, December 17, 2006 (GMT)
 
::::::Regional Smasher pages wouldn't be necessary, because when looking at representatives from a region, you would not want to find the dregs, but the stars. If done, we would probably begin with the most notable areas, i.e., Japan, NorCal, SoCal. One problem I see is of sub-regions. Would we do Pacific West along with SoCal/NorCal? What of the US as a whole? We could either exclude some of these, or make all of them and just have some players in multiple regions, such as [[Ken]], who would be in both Pacific West and SoCal. I suggest that we do all notable regions. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 23:24, December 17, 2006 (GMT)
::::::Regional Smasher pages wouldn't be necessary, because when looking at representatives from a region, you would not want to find the dregs, but the stars. If done, we would probably begin with the most notable areas, i.e., Japan, NorCal, SoCal. One problem I see is of sub-regions. Would we do Pacific West along with SoCal/NorCal? What of the US as a whole? We could either exclude some of these, or make all of them and just have some players in multiple regions, such as [[Ken]], who would be in both Pacific West and SoCal. I suggest that we do all notable regions. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 23:24, December 17, 2006 (GMT)


Before anything else, we need to determine what exactly is a pro. --[[User:MaskedMarth|MaskedMarth]] 22:05, December 17, 2006 (GMT)
Before anything else, we need to determine what exactly is a pro. --[[User:MaskedMarth|MaskedMarth]] 22:05, December 17, 2006 (GMT)
 
:The Smash Community needs to determine what exactly a pro is. I would recommend the SWF Back Room, but I don't have access. My next pick would be Gamefaqs...No. [[User:Oddeven2002|Oddeven2002]] 22:12, December 17, 2006 (GMT)
: The Smash Community needs to determine what exactly a pro is. I would recommend the SWF Back Room, but I don't have access. My next pick would be Gamefaqs...No. [[User:Oddeven2002|Oddeven2002]] 22:12, December 17, 2006 (GMT)
 
::I feel that the question is EXCLUSIVELY up to the Back Room. Too bad I'm not in it... -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 23:24, December 17, 2006 (GMT)
::I feel that the question is EXCLUSIVELY up to the Back Room. Too bad I'm not in it... -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 23:24, December 17, 2006 (GMT)
::: Neither am I.  A bit of an impediment, isn't it?  Somebody in the Broom should request help for SmashWiki!  It would be quite helpful if the Broom adopted SmashWiki as one of its main projects.  How much else do they do there, anyways?  They only make a tier list once a year, these days. --[[User:MaskedMarth|MaskedMarth]] 00:22, December 18, 2006 (GMT)
::: Neither am I.  A bit of an impediment, isn't it?  Somebody in the Broom should request help for SmashWiki!  It would be quite helpful if the Broom adopted SmashWiki as one of its main projects.  How much else do they do there, anyways?  They only make a tier list once a year, these days. --[[User:MaskedMarth|MaskedMarth]] 00:22, December 18, 2006 (GMT)
 
::::I can't say I think the BRoom/SBR is qualified to do this.  They have rarely looked for people to put into their group for a while, most of the time the people who do get in are just friends of current members who get in for that reason, and I know for a fact that there are some people in the SBR/BRoom who are only in there because they bought a premium membership on SWF.--[[User:OMNIVECTOR|Simna ibn Sind]] 07:20, December 18, 2006 (GMT)
:::I can't say I think the BRoom/SBR is qualified to do this.  They have rarely looked for people to put into their group for a while, most of the time the people who do get in are just friends of current members who get in for that reason, and I know for a fact that there are some people in the SBR/BRoom who are only in there because they bought a premium membership on SWF.--[[User:OMNIVECTOR|Simna ibn Sind]] 07:20, December 18, 2006 (GMT)
:::::Also, I don't think (a) regional category(ies) is/are necessary.  I was thinking the character specific ones would be good.  That would be nice and organized and not nearly as much work as regional categories.--[[User:OMNIVECTOR|Simna ibn Sind]] 07:22, December 18, 2006 (GMT)
 
::::::If not the BRoom/SBR, then who? Perhaps we could arrange a collection of players to discuss the topic privately elsewhere. I can think of many members who would have valuable opinions. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 08:39, December 18, 2006 (GMT)
::::Also, I don't think (a) regional category(ies) is/are necessary.  I was thinking the character specific ones would be good.  That would be nice and organized and not nearly as much work as regional categories.--[[User:OMNIVECTOR|Simna ibn Sind]] 07:22, December 18, 2006 (GMT)
:::::::Methinks we could appoint a committee, kind of like with the [[Smash Panel Power Rankings]], to determine who the, say, fifty most important international players are.  Then we can rename this "famous players" or something.  "Professionals" is kinda icky word choice - an unknown, poor player can play for money, but a Smash icon could be an amateur.  Better that we set the boundaries for talent clearly. --[[User:MaskedMarth|MaskedMarth]] 15:09, December 18, 2006 (GMT)
 
:::::If not the BRoom/SBR, then who? Perhaps we could arrange a collection of players to discuss the topic privately elsewhere. I can think of many members who would have valuable opinions. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 08:39, December 18, 2006 (GMT)
 
::::::Methinks we could appoint a committee, kind of like with the [[Smash Panel Power Rankings]], to determine who the, say, fifty most important international players are.  Then we can rename this "famous players" or something.  "Professionals" is kinda icky word choice - an unknown, poor player can play for money, but a Smash icon could be an amateur.  Better that we set the boundaries for talent clearly. --[[User:MaskedMarth|MaskedMarth]] 15:09, December 18, 2006 (GMT)


::::Oh, and in response to Simna, the BRoom said it would be looking for members this fall. I guess they have two days to make a topic and choose a bunch of inductees.  But I'm getting off-topic. --[[User:MaskedMarth|MaskedMarth]] 15:11, December 18, 2006 (GMT)
::::Oh, and in response to Simna, the BRoom said it would be looking for members this fall. I guess they have two days to make a topic and choose a bunch of inductees.  But I'm getting off-topic. --[[User:MaskedMarth|MaskedMarth]] 15:11, December 18, 2006 (GMT)
:::::I agree with removing the Pro pages for Famous Player pages...its probably the safest thing to do as there will be much less fuss over who is famous than who is pro.--[[User:OMNIVECTOR|Simna ibn Sind]] 22:20, December 18, 2006 (GMT)
:::::I agree with removing the Pro pages for Famous Player pages...its probably the safest thing to do as there will be much less fuss over who is famous than who is pro.--[[User:OMNIVECTOR|Simna ibn Sind]] 22:20, December 18, 2006 (GMT)
::::::What then would constitute famous players, then? Must they be known worldwide, or regional? And does anyone have ideas for a more appealing title for that? Sounds a little boring, doesn't it? -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 00:01, December 19, 2006 (GMT)
::::::What then would constitute famous players, then? Must they be known worldwide, or regional? And does anyone have ideas for a more appealing title for that? Sounds a little boring, doesn't it? -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 00:01, December 19, 2006 (GMT)


:Title is the least of out concerns for the moment, Del. And I believe the famous shouldn't refer through out a place (be it globally, regional, ect), but rather well known through out a Smash Community, such as Gamefaqs or SWF. And then picking only 50 most important hardly seems like an enyclopediac issue. It should be a constant update as to who is in, and who isn't. But that brings up the classic problem "who is famous" rather than "who is pro". [[User:Oddeven2002|Oddeven2002]] 00:44, December 19, 2006 (GMT)
:Title is the least of out concerns for the moment, Del. And I believe the famous shouldn't refer through out a place (be it globally, regional, ect), but rather well known through out a Smash Community, such as Gamefaqs or SWF. And then picking only 50 most important hardly seems like an enyclopediac issue. It should be a constant update as to who is in, and who isn't. But that brings up the classic problem "who is famous" rather than "who is pro". [[User:Oddeven2002|Oddeven2002]] 00:44, December 19, 2006 (GMT)
::Those players who are definite pros(like those on the US Power Rankings) should fall into the famous category automatically.  Others could include all of DBR whose combo vids are widely famous, Nealdt for the creation of his Tio program, BACH for his famed camera coverage, players known for character specific fame, superdoodleman for his works with AR and frame data, and more(these are just examples)--[[User:OMNIVECTOR|Simna ibn Sind]] 10:08, December 19, 2006 (GMT)
::Those players who are definite pros(like those on the US Power Rankings) should fall into the famous category automatically.  Others could include all of DBR whose combo vids are widely famous, Nealdt for the creation of his Tio program, BACH for his famed camera coverage, players known for character specific fame, superdoodleman for his works with AR and frame data, and more(these are just examples)--[[User:OMNIVECTOR|Simna ibn Sind]] 10:08, December 19, 2006 (GMT)
:::Would you include regional rankings as well?
:::Would you include regional rankings as well?
:::: That brings up the smaller subregions issue. I mean, my home region of North Dakota doesn't currently have a ranking list, though PFKS10 could assemble one for the Dakotas. That's a topic for another day, however. Point is: not all smasher live in ranked regions. You can't just do that, but on the global scale, it's all fair game. Simna: You don't give yourself enough credit, you'd naturally be on that last for the GSC. [[User:Oddeven2002|Oddeven2002]] 16:47, December 19, 2006 (GMT)
:::: That brings up the smaller subregions issue. I mean, my home region of North Dakota doesn't currently have a ranking list, though PFKS10 could assemble one for the Dakotas. That's a topic for another day, however. Point is: not all smasher live in ranked regions. You can't just do that, but on the global scale, it's all fair game. Simna: You don't give yourself enough credit, you'd naturally be on that last for the GSC. [[User:Oddeven2002|Oddeven2002]] 16:47, December 19, 2006 (GMT)
 
:::::Don't mind my feeble attempts at modesty^_^--[[User:OMNIVECTOR|Simna ibn Sind]] 08:03, January 4, 2007 (GMT)
::::: Don't mind my feeble attempts at modesty^_^--[[User:OMNIVECTOR|Simna ibn Sind]] 08:03, January 4, 2007 (GMT)


I also have some comments. See [[#Pain in the @$$]]. &ndash; [[User:AltAcnt|Smiddle]] / <small>[[User talk:AltAcnt|talk]]</small> 15:57, January 4, 2007 (GMT)
I also have some comments. See [[#Pain in the @$$]]. &ndash; [[User:AltAcnt|Smiddle]] / <small>[[User talk:AltAcnt|talk]]</small> 15:57, January 4, 2007 (GMT)
 
:I think that risks making the page too long, vertically.  I like it better horizontally, for the time being at least.  Perhaps the best solution would be to make a table a la [[Smash Panel Power Rankings]] and see how that could work out. --[[User:MaskedMarth|MaskedMarth]] 00:38, January 5, 2007 (GMT)
: I think that risks making the page too long, vertically.  I like it better horizontally, for the time being at least.  Perhaps the best solution would be to make a table a la [[Smash Panel Power Rankings]] and see how that could work out. --[[User:MaskedMarth|MaskedMarth]] 00:38, January 5, 2007 (GMT)
 


OK, we've all just sort of batted these ideas around for a while, but I think it is time to act on them. Let's go ahead and do both the Famous Players category and the Character Pros categories. What exactly should we name the famous players page? There are some famous community members who don't actively play, many of whom are famous for things outside of but related to Smash, such as [[Gideon]], [[nealdt]], [[ZodiakLucien]], [[SuperDoodleMan]]. "Famous Players" doesn't address that. I'll start on taking this page and splitting up the players on it into their respective Character Pro pages. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 23:52, January 15, 2007 (GMT)
OK, we've all just sort of batted these ideas around for a while, but I think it is time to act on them. Let's go ahead and do both the Famous Players category and the Character Pros categories. What exactly should we name the famous players page? There are some famous community members who don't actively play, many of whom are famous for things outside of but related to Smash, such as [[Gideon]], [[nealdt]], [[ZodiakLucien]], [[SuperDoodleMan]]. "Famous Players" doesn't address that. I'll start on taking this page and splitting up the players on it into their respective Character Pro pages. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 23:52, January 15, 2007 (GMT)
 
:Not sure if anyone's noticed, but I've started the [:Category:Character specific players]] category and subcategories. I'm not limiting it to skill of the player, instead I'm focusing on how skilled they are when compared to other players of the same character. For this reason players like [[Kawn]], DRGN,[[Mexican]], and [[Azn_Lep]] will be included. So far I have done Bowser, CF, DK, Yoshi, Young Link, and Zelda. Let me know what you guys think. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 00:05, January 23, 2007 (GMT)
 
:Not sure if anyone's noticed, but I've started the [[:Category:Character Specific Professionals]] category and subcategories. I'm not limiting it to skill of the player, instead I'm focusing on how skilled they are when compared to other players of the same character. For this reason players like [[Kawn]], [[DRGN]],[[Mexican]], and [[Azn_Lep]] will be included. So far I have done Bowser, CF, DK, Yoshi, Young Link, and Zelda. Let me know what you guys think. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 00:05, January 23, 2007 (GMT)
 
::Compared to other non-casual players(players that use advanced technique) of the same characters, DRGN, SideFX, Choknater, and yourself will have a very hard time justifying being in any pro list even a character specific ones.  While I can't monitor who goes in to these categories completely because I don't know all of them personally, but I do know those players I mentioned and I can safely say that they are not prepared for pro status even if that is just in comparison to other non-casual players of the same character.--[[User:OMNIVECTOR|Simna ibn Sind]] 06:24, January 31, 2007 (GMT)
::Compared to other non-casual players(players that use advanced technique) of the same characters, DRGN, SideFX, Choknater, and yourself will have a very hard time justifying being in any pro list even a character specific ones.  While I can't monitor who goes in to these categories completely because I don't know all of them personally, but I do know those players I mentioned and I can safely say that they are not prepared for pro status even if that is just in comparison to other non-casual players of the same character.--[[User:OMNIVECTOR|Simna ibn Sind]] 06:24, January 31, 2007 (GMT)
:::Are you taking into account what I've said about how they advance their character's metagame? DRGN is probably the best example of this, because so few players actually use a variety of Zelda's attacks. Some players have said that DRGN surpasses Kawn in that respect (but not altogether skill). If you took this into account I'll accept your revision. And for the record I think DRGN is the most qualified of the ones you removed. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 01:10, February 1, 2007 (GMT)
:::Are you taking into account what I've said about how they advance their character's metagame? DRGN is probably the best example of this, because so few players actually use a variety of Zelda's attacks. Some players have said that DRGN surpasses Kawn in that respect (but not altogether skill). If you took this into account I'll accept your revision. And for the record I think DRGN is the most qualified of the ones you removed. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 01:10, February 1, 2007 (GMT)


Kay well, i just fixed the page a little bit...i didn't really like how the list looked before. It's just temporary until actually clean up is done. -- [[User:Janitor|Janitor]] 10:17, May 20, 2007 (GMT)
Kay well, i just fixed the page a little bit...i didn't really like how the list looked before. It's just temporary until actually clean up is done. -- [[User:Janitor|Janitor]] 10:17, May 20, 2007 (GMT)


== Pro vs. Pro-Am: New, Hip Lingo to Define "Pro" Within the Microcosm... ==
==Pro vs. Pro-Am: New, Hip Lingo to Define "Pro" Within the Microcosm...==
 
I would like to believe that the wheels upon which the Smash community turns are being driven by the community members themselves. As willing contributors to this wiki (a utility practically built for special interest knowledge compilation), we do have the power of the International Standards Organization in our own little way. The terminology and definitions used can be decided and implemented ''by'' us and ''for'' everyone who's too lazy to do it themselves. If and when this wiki "officially" opens up to the public with a steady stream of supporters and advertising, I see no reason that it shouldn't be the one-stop standard source for all competitive Smash-related information. And if we're the ones setting the standards, that means they can be changed, too.  
I would like to believe that the wheels upon which the Smash community turns are being driven by the community members themselves. As willing contributors to this wiki (a utility practically built for special interest knowledge compilation), we do have the power of the International Standards Organization in our own little way. The terminology and definitions used can be decided and implemented ''by'' us and ''for'' everyone who's too lazy to do it themselves. If and when this wiki "officially" opens up to the public with a steady stream of supporters and advertising, I see no reason that it shouldn't be the one-stop standard source for all competitive Smash-related information. And if we're the ones setting the standards, that means they can be changed, too.  


Line 153: Line 122:
:Surely the top 25 European players deserve to be called professionals, and at least the top 10 in Canada and Australia. With a little coordinated effort, I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to publish a proper list; there's gotta be some people outside of the US who have an expansive knowledge of what the tournament scene is like in their own country and isn't just in it to stroke their own ego.  
:Surely the top 25 European players deserve to be called professionals, and at least the top 10 in Canada and Australia. With a little coordinated effort, I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to publish a proper list; there's gotta be some people outside of the US who have an expansive knowledge of what the tournament scene is like in their own country and isn't just in it to stroke their own ego.  
*Japanese people?  
*Japanese people?  
:Hahahaha all of them!...no but seriously, we run into a communication barrier with the Japanese smash community. I'm pretty sure we don't have an [[SWF]] correspondent who knows how players are ranked, seeded and paid out in Japan all the time but it's probably safe to assume that they have a much larger community than it may seem on "our internet." Therefore, I have to assume that any videos or names of Japanese smashers that make their way into the hands of the English-speaking Smash community have gotta be the pros and that's about all the criteria we can judge on for now. Besides, watching Fumi and Aniki videos...without sounding too unencyclopedic...you can just tell. :^)
:Hahahaha all of them!...no but seriously, we run into a communication barrier with the Japanese smash community. I'm pretty sure we don't have an [[SmashBoards]] correspondent who knows how players are ranked, seeded and paid out in Japan all the time but it's probably safe to assume that they have a much larger community than it may seem on "our internet." Therefore, I have to assume that any videos or names of Japanese smashers that make their way into the hands of the English-speaking Smash community have gotta be the pros and that's about all the criteria we can judge on for now. Besides, watching Fumi and Aniki videos...without sounding too unencyclopedic...you can just tell. :^)


'''But wait...'''
'''But wait...'''
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'''Pro-Ams'''
'''Pro-Ams'''


Then, when all of those little kinks are worked out and we have finally come up with a definition that isn't going to have people printing off the article to bring it to their contractual law office for clarification on the terms, we can make a new section for [[professional amateur|Pro-Ams]]. This is where I expect some dissent because at face value, it looks as though we'll run into precisely the same problem with defining "pro-am" as we have with "pro" just. I think it ought to go like this:
Then, when all of those little kinks are worked out and we have finally come up with a definition that isn't going to have people printing off the article to bring it to their contractual law office for clarification on the terms, we can make a new section for <nowiki>[[professional amateur|Pro-Ams]]</nowiki>. This is where I expect some dissent because at face value, it looks as though we'll run into precisely the same problem with defining "pro-am" as we have with "pro" just. I think it ought to go like this:


:A '''professional amateur''' [[smasher]] is a person who plays the game at a competitive level, demonstrates a high level of technical skill and is reputed as such by their own local Smash community.  
:A '''professional amateur''' [[smasher]] is a person who plays the game at a competitive level, demonstrates a high level of technical skill and is reputed as such by their own local Smash community.  
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This still leaves enough criterion for "pro-am" status that we won't have every person with an SWF account making a user page in the Pro-Am category. There has to at least be other competition in your area for your skills to be weighed. Most smashers grossly overestimate their own ability, but those that have that local competition at least offer a more realistic assessment of their own skill. It never hurts to have citation for your own Pro-Am status and using my own discretion, I could very easily pick out the participants at my own bi-weeklies that deserve it and those who don't. Someone else's opinion may or may not be valid, but it's better than creating an article with no basis whatsoever.  
This still leaves enough criterion for "pro-am" status that we won't have every person with an SWF account making a user page in the Pro-Am category. There has to at least be other competition in your area for your skills to be weighed. Most smashers grossly overestimate their own ability, but those that have that local competition at least offer a more realistic assessment of their own skill. It never hurts to have citation for your own Pro-Am status and using my own discretion, I could very easily pick out the participants at my own bi-weeklies that deserve it and those who don't. Someone else's opinion may or may not be valid, but it's better than creating an article with no basis whatsoever.  


Obviously, you have to be realistic about SmashWiki and the community in general. Anyone can edit it and indeed, anyone will. Since we can't prevent the creation of new content of any kind, the best thing we can offer are guidelines on how it should be done. Not everyone will listen, but I have no doubt that more than one person who was considering adding to the "pros" section would find the accompanying link to [[Pro-Am]] even more appropriate.  
Obviously, you have to be realistic about SmashWiki and the community in general. Anyone can edit it and indeed, anyone will. Since we can't prevent the creation of new content of any kind, the best thing we can offer are guidelines on how it should be done. Not everyone will listen, but I have no doubt that more than one person who was considering adding to the "pros" section would find the accompanying link to Pro-Am even more appropriate.  


If the majority of people agree with my scary new terminology idea, let me know and I'll tackle it straight away, cleaning up and categorizing every article in [[:Category:Smasher]]--you have my word! :^)  
If the majority of people agree with my scary new terminology idea, let me know and I'll tackle it straight away, cleaning up and categorizing every article in [[:Category:Smashers]]--you have my word! :^)  


-- [[User:Randall00|Randall00]] 23:35, January 31, 2007 (GMT)
-- [[User:Randall00|Randall00]] 23:35, January 31, 2007 (GMT)


:We've started to address this page in particular, and it will soon be done away with. The more correct pros list is in [[:Category:Pros]]. For now leave this page alone, as many of the players here are being transferred into the [[:Category:Character Specific Professionals]] page. There has already been talk of limiting this to the [[Smash Panel Power Rankings]] who along with common MLG entrants can be surely said to be pros. What about the [[NorCal Power Rankings]] and [[SoCal Power Rankings]]? I personally also consider these players pros. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 23:46, February 1, 2007 (GMT)
:We've started to address this page in particular, and it will soon be done away with. The more correct pros list is in [:Category:Pros]]. For now leave this page alone, as many of the players here are being transferred into the [:Category:Character specific players]] page. There has already been talk of limiting this to the [[Smash Panel Power Rankings]] who along with common MLG entrants can be surely said to be pros. What about the [[NorCal Power Rankings]] and [[SoCal Power Rankings]]? I personally also consider these players pros. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 23:46, February 1, 2007 (GMT)


::Who are you and where is this "talk" you speak of? The Smash Back Room that they didn't let me back into for some reason? I'd just like to see someone working on this and there's so many Talk pages spread across this wiki that it's hard to keep track of what's going on. The discussion needs to be localized somewhere if any progress is to be made.  
::Who are you and where is this "talk" you speak of? The Smash Back Room that they didn't let me back into for some reason? I'd just like to see someone working on this and there's so many Talk pages spread across this wiki that it's hard to keep track of what's going on. The discussion needs to be localized somewhere if any progress is to be made.  
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:I do disagree with a dollar value for one reason. Here is an example. A local player by the name of [[Tomi-X]] has never defeated a pro in a tournament. However he occasionally skips out on competitor-heavy tournaments which he knows he can not win and instead will go to tournaments with more entrants but no skilled players. He will then walk away with somewhat large amounts of money. This player is not deserving of the title pro, in terms of ''skill''. But in empirical terms, he is. This discrepancy convinces me that a dollar amount is not possible as a term of judgment.
:I do disagree with a dollar value for one reason. Here is an example. A local player by the name of Tomi-X has never defeated a pro in a tournament. However he occasionally skips out on competitor-heavy tournaments which he knows he can not win and instead will go to tournaments with more entrants but no skilled players. He will then walk away with somewhat large amounts of money. This player is not deserving of the title pro, in terms of ''skill''. But in empirical terms, he is. This discrepancy convinces me that a dollar amount is not possible as a term of judgment.


:-- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 01:10, February 1, 2007 (GMT)
:-- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 01:10, February 1, 2007 (GMT)
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:::What you are saying is that although we can easily assign the label to those who fit the criteria, we still maintain the ability to make our own judgemnts outside of the criteria which will add and remove players according to the discretion of, I assume, a number of chosen community members whose opinion can be counted on. I think this is a good idea. So, who are we to choose for this group of members? The committee can then evaluate those players in the [[:Category:Pros|Pros Category]] and add and remove according to their decisions. As for this page, I have been moving many of the players here into their respective [[:Category:Character Specific Professionals|Character Specific Pros pages]]. Once that task is done, I will put the page up for deletion. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 23:46, February 1, 2007 (GMT)
:::What you are saying is that although we can easily assign the label to those who fit the criteria, we still maintain the ability to make our own judgemnts outside of the criteria which will add and remove players according to the discretion of, I assume, a number of chosen community members whose opinion can be counted on. I think this is a good idea. So, who are we to choose for this group of members? The committee can then evaluate those players in the Pros Category and add and remove according to their decisions. As for this page, I have been moving many of the players here into their respective [:Category:Character specific players|Character Specific Pros pages]]. Once that task is done, I will put the page up for deletion. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 23:46, February 1, 2007 (GMT)


::::Well, I don't really think it's necessary to come up with all kinds of committees and decision-making groups in order to maintain a fairly accurate list of Pros. Again, because this is a community-edited compendium of information, anytime that someone whose deserving of Pro status comes into question, the issue would just be brought up on the discussion page, opened up for voting and cleared up in that fashion. Maybe I'll even make a little template we could tag on to certain pages specifying that this "may not represent a worldwide view of the subject. ([[discuss]])". :^)  
::::Well, I don't really think it's necessary to come up with all kinds of committees and decision-making groups in order to maintain a fairly accurate list of Pros. Again, because this is a community-edited compendium of information, anytime that someone whose deserving of Pro status comes into question, the issue would just be brought up on the discussion page, opened up for voting and cleared up in that fashion. Maybe I'll even make a little template we could tag on to certain pages specifying that this "may not represent a worldwide view of the subject. ([discuss]])". :^)  


::::-- [[User:Randall00|Randall00]] 16:30, February 3, 2007 (GMT)
::::-- [[User:Randall00|Randall00]] 16:30, February 3, 2007 (GMT)
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Well, what qualifies do you to be a professional? I mean, in Indiana they aren't any competions in my area. If I were to go to one, (Which KishPrime directs, and that's about an 1hr and 15 minutes away,) record a match, post it on YouTube, and if I had "professional" qualitites, could I keep my page? I mean, I'm no different than [[Dark.Pch]], other than I have no videos. I'm currently trying to get some of my school friends to join here, but they seem uninterested. What am I supposed to do?
Well, what qualifies do you to be a professional? I mean, in Indiana they aren't any competions in my area. If I were to go to one, (Which KishPrime directs, and that's about an 1hr and 15 minutes away,) record a match, post it on YouTube, and if I had "professional" qualitites, could I keep my page? I mean, I'm no different than [[Dark.Pch]], other than I have no videos. I'm currently trying to get some of my school friends to join here, but they seem uninterested. What am I supposed to do?


[[ethanrodgers223]]
[[ethanrodgers223]


: Your suggestion would be fine.  It's too bad to not have any competition in your area, but without videos and other players' experiences with you, it's hard to objectively judge your skill. {{User:MaskedMarth/sig}} 20:05, November 8, 2007 (EST)
: Your suggestion would be fine.  It's too bad to not have any competition in your area, but without videos and other players' experiences with you, it's hard to objectively judge your skill. {{User:MaskedMarth/sig}} 20:05, November 8, 2007 (EST)


== Remove Gojira ==


Can someone remove "Gojira" from the list of US Bowser Pros?  He should not be on there. He's a Pro-Am, at best; I play with him regularly, so I know.  He's only ranked 6th in a small community that is Utah (and if it wasn't for bias in the panel, he may even be lower).
 
Feel free to delete this request once he's removed from that list.  
== Delete ==
And while someone is at it, they should move CAOTIC to Australia (make an Australia subheading, first), as he lives there, and not in the US anymore. -- [[User:Perfect Chaos|Perfect Chaos]] 1:29, November 10, 2007 (EST)
 
This is a list of No pro players listed here contribute:
 
JohnnyBoy -Bowser, Samus , CAptian Falcon
 
: First of all, I don't see a signature so I have no idea who I'm dealing with here, but I'm pretty sure it's someone who has absolutely no idea who Johnnyboy is. In The Netherlands and even Europe he is considered to be the best Bowser player and among the best Captain Falcon players. If you still don't approve of him being on the list, you might as well delete every European smasher except Amsah.[[User:Utto|Utto]] 11:41, November 19, 2007 (EST)
 
==Linkje==
 
Linkje asked me to point this out. He is listed as being a Young Link professional, but he doesn't play Young Link anymore. He is now a Ganondorf main. In The Netherlands he is considered a Ganondorf professional, but it's up to the editor of this page to decide if he belongs on the list. Either way, he should be deleted from the Young Link section. Thanks in advance. [[User:Utto|Utto]] 11:41, November 19, 2007 (EST)
 
 
 
That Kala , is not pro [[User:Zinnamon|Zinnamon]] 16:30, November 19, 2007 (EST) (and i think his page isn't even valid)
 
==Twin==
 
you guys can add twin to the falco pros if you want. I made his wiki now.
 
-Red
 
Ness only Nessby should be left . CJ is not Ness Main . CJ from all pages except Sheik's and Ganon's and Neptune Eclipse the Canadian Smasher should be removed from all  pages . and Kala also should be removed (thailand marth) .
 
You guys need to learn how to sig yourselves. End with these: <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> --[[User:Janitor|Janitor]] 18:23, November 22, 2007 (EST)
 
[[Neptune Eclipse]] is a legitimately professional Pikachu main, but doesn't seem to compete under that name anymore. --<font color="000023">'''[[User:Randall00|RJM]]'''</font> <sup>''[[User talk:Randall00|Talk]]''</sup> 23:02, November 22, 2007 (EST)
 
==need protected edit==
Either need to convert the ex-templates to tabling, or need to unprotect for just a minute or two while someone else does it. =) --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] | [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] | <span class="plainlinks">[http://www.wowwiki.com/User:Sky2042 w]</span>) 04:41, February 3, 2008 (EST)
 
==A solid definition a Professional is needed.==
I think the definition currently posted is rather general. Does this mean anyone who makes money from tournaments is considered a professional? I know it is rather general because of there being no complete league for SSBM/SSBB as there may be with Warcraft III and Quake III, etc. Perhaps we should reserve pro for the top players that make large sums of money and amateur for players who make small amounts of money?
 
==Removal of Cort and other smashers==
EndOfSummer, I took out "Cort" and the rest of the smashers who you said were pros because they weren't considered [[SW:NOTE|notable]] enough. In fact, Cort's page got deleted after some time, [http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/index.php?title=Special:Log/delete&page=Smasher:Cort see here]. I took out all of those Smashers because their own pages were all deleted at some point, and I decided to do some housekeeping. You can argue if you want that Cort is notable, but unless you have something that is considered notable by the policy I linked to above, I'm afraid that Cort will stay deleted and off the "Professionals" page. '''[[User:RAN1|<font color="darkred">R</font>]][[User talk:RAN1|<font color="navy">A</font>]][[Special:Contributions/RAN1|<font color="darkgreen">N</font>]]1''' 20:08, December 10, 2009 (UTC)
:why dont you look at north atlantic power rankings stupid RAN1. hes ranked #7. u dont kno anything about pros. just cuz theyre marked as red doesnt mean theyre "notable". tyrant doesnt have an article. hes one of the best brawl players <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:EndOfSummer|EndOfSummer]] ([[User talk:EndOfSummer|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/EndOfSummer|contribs]]) 20:13, 10 December 2009 (UTC)</small>
::I just restored Cort's article - no idea why it was deleted in the first place, as he's plenty notable. Also, EndOfSummer: [[SmashWiki:No personal attacks|please don't call other users "stupid"]]. '''''<span style="font-family:Arial;">[[User:PenguinofDeath|<font color="silver">Penguin</font>]][[User talk:PenguinofDeath|<font color="gray">of</font>]][[Special:Contributions/PenguinofDeath|<font color="silver">Death</font>]]</span>''''' 20:30, December 10, 2009 (UTC)
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