Talk:List of minor universes/Archive 1

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Archive

1. 1

Before I throw any more time at this page: would people generally find this useful as a page? It would replace the wall of text I'm basing it on from the bottom of the universe page, and sections would be linked to by a minor universe template analogous to {{uv}}. Miles (talk) 00:49, 25 February 2015 (EST)

Well, I'm all for it. There are a lot of these little representations that leave you wondering, "What kind of game is that?", and right now I think the wiki doesn't have much in the way of satisfactory answers to such questions, likely for lack of suitable places to put such information. So this definitely serves a purpose, and I already learned a few things reading it. I could contribute a bit to it later, too. Zyrac (talk) 08:13, 25 February 2015 (EST)

Yeah, I mean the text of the sections is rather sloppy and ripped verbatim from the universe page, as I mentioned. I was mostly setting up the infoboxes as a means of consistency and page formation, with the idea that the text would be more easily improved later. Miles (talk) 16:02, 25 February 2015 (EST)

I think this is a good idea. We need to see if we can do anything with the table of contents though. Toomai Glittershine Da Bomb 21:47, 25 February 2015 (EST)

I agree that 60 is a bit unwieldy, but I'm not quite sure what would be an alternative. Removing it altogether seems unwise... Miles (talk) 23:17, 25 February 2015 (EST)

Also a couple of clarifications for consistency:

1. Should minor Namco universes be referenced on this page or on a separate page like "List of Namco universes"? Their representation varies widely from Dig Dug (enemy, music excerpt, Namco Roulette) to King & Balloon (Namco Roulette in one version of SSB4 only), and it'd be a little weird to reference such a minor thing on a page that's already kind of unwieldy.
2. In terms of item-origin universes, which I recently implemented pages for, would the more ambiguous cases of Meteos, GoldenEye 007, or Super Scope also warrant universe pages? And depending on the previous answer about Namco, how about Galaga or Rally-X?
3. Do we care about documenting Marvel vs. Capcom anywhere given that it is officially referenced?

I know I'm probably way overthinking these but I would like some consistency. Comments are appreciated. Miles (talk) 13:00, 26 February 2015 (EST)

1. Arguably we could stuff all those into a "Namco universe" (the game already kinda does), though whether that's a good idea or not is debatable.
2. I think the MSB is a direct enough reference that GoldenEye is viable. I don't think the Super Scope has a native universe. The X Bomb could go either way.
3. Eh I don't think it's necessary.

Toomai Glittershine The Resolute 23:56, 27 February 2015 (EST)

1. I don't see why we wouldn't put all those in a "Namco universe".
2. While the MSB used the GE007 design in the NTSC versions of Melee, they used their Perfect Dark design over in Japan. Also, Sakurai ponted out that the X-Bomb that was in Smash was not to be confused with the one from Meteos, if I'm not mistaken.
3. I think at least pointing the MvC reference would be necessary (specifically, mentioning it on Mega Man's moveset table). Other than that, I don't think we need to do much.

Aidan the Aura Master 00:21, 28 February 2015 (EST)

Alright so the current game plan is to do a "Namco (universe)" or "List of Namco universes" later, include GoldenEye on the main template as an item universe, and pass over the others. (Super Scope I was thinking insofar as Super Scope 6 was a Duck Hunt/Zapper analogue, if anyone cares; it's a bit of a stretch, though.) Miles (talk) 02:09, 28 February 2015 (EST)

Culdecept as 3rd party

I don't get it, why was Culdecept listed as 3rd party but not Fatal Frame or Tetris. If it was third party it would probably be on the Windy Hill or Pac-Land stage, maybe.Nintenzilla (talk) 09:30, 1 May 2015 (EDT)

The piece of information you're complaining about was already removed because there were enough franchises involved to make it ambiguously notable. Miles (talk) 09:37, 1 May 2015 (EDT)

Oh, okay! Now I know!Nintenzilla (talk) 09:38, 1 May 2015 (EDT)

Virtual Fighter goes here right?

Since Akira and Jacky's Mii outfits were leaked, I was wondering if they belong here. I just want to make sure. Magiciandude (talk) 15:20, 13 June 2015 (EDT)

"Virtua". And yes, I already put Akira down on this page. I don't really know anything about that series, so I'm not sure if the Jacky costume is separate or if it's an alternate of some sort. Miles (talk) 15:25, 13 June 2015 (EDT)

Looks to be separate (notice the blonde hair on Jacky's outfit). If you're not sure, then at the least we could just say an outfit based on Jacky's appearance as well. Magiciandude (talk) 16:01, 13 June 2015 (EDT)

Fatal Frame

So recently, I found a video confirming Zelda and Zero Suit Samus costumes for the most recent game in the Fatal Frame series. Would this be something to bring up in the article? Aidan, Master of Speed and Aura 15:07, 19 October 2015 (EDT)

There's no reference to Maiden of Black Water in Smash, coupled with the fact that Nintendo co-owns Fatal Frame. It's not within the scope of this article. Aardvarkian (talk) 15:15, 19 October 2015 (EDT)

Fun Fact

I was actually the one who added all of those universes in the minor universes section of the 'List of universes' page before the section was turned into its own page. ~SuperSmashTurtles

Splitting into "Nintendo-Owned" and "3rd party"

I think it's worth dividing the page up into Nitnendo series at the top and 3rd party franchises at the bottom, especially considering DLC costumes added so many to ssb4. I'm still not sure on what to call the divisions though. Any ideas? Guybrush20X6 (talk) 06:14, 20 March 2018 (EDT)

Base page: "List of minor universes". New page: "List of third-party universes". The only issue is that there really aren't that many to put there, especially since Namco gets their own page. Aidan, the Irish Rurouni 07:51, 20 March 2018 (EDT)

Maybe it's worth waiting and seeing if Smash Switch continues the trend of 3rd Party Mii costumes. We got a few Capcom and Sega ones, not to mention the Commander Video and Rayman trophies so a few more maybe. Guybrush20X6 (talk) 20:49, 25 March 2018 (EDT)

Now we've waited and seen, Smash Switch aka Ultimate not only continues the trend of Mii costumes, the whole spirits thing adds a lot of 3rd parties. Definetly think we should split them, the question now being: Different section or own page? Guybrush20X6 (talk) 21:20, 20 November 2018 (EST)

Space Invaders and Meteos

in two pic of the day posts, referencing the X-Bomb and Colour TV Game assist trophy respectively, Sakurai mentioned Meteos and Space Invaders. should we count those as minor universes or not? they haven't appeared in any form in Smash games themselves through, so I'm not 100% sure...

Franchises that are only mentioned and nothing else aren't noteworthy enough representation to warrant a spot on the list. SuperSmashTurtles (talk) 00:57, 27 June 2018 (EDT)

Baten Kaitos on this or Namco page?

So I was thinking: Should we move Baten Kaitos to the Namco page or do we keep it here? The first game in the series was published by Namco, so it would've definitely been on the Namco page if it were kept that way, but the sequel is Nintendo-published instead, and a music piece from the sequel plays on the Gaur Plains stage in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U. Plus, it seems rather ambiguous as to who owns the Baten Kaitos IP. How should we handle this? SuperSmashTurtles (talk) 21:39, 4 July 2018 (EDT)

All of the universes on the Namco page were developed by Namco in-house. Since the developer of the Baten Kaitos series is Monolith Soft (that being the reason it's on Gaur Plains, as they also developed Xenoblade), it's probably better to keep it here to avoid any confusion. But you're right that it's ambiguous as to who actually owns the IP. DryKirby64 (talk) 21:53, 4 July 2018 (EDT)

Sorry for the very late reply, but I just thought about it, and I have to say that I disagree on the whole "We kept it on this page to prevent confusion" thing. Okay, so Baten Kaitos isn't Namco-developed, but what if something like Xenogears gets representation in Smash? That series is also made by Monolith Soft, but it's heavily associated with Namc and is still owned by them.. Not putting it in the Namco page would cause more confusion than make less. So yeah, I don't think it should really matter if a Namco IP is made by Namco or not to warrant a section on the Namco universes page. SuperSmashTurtles (talk) 10:29, 7 January 2019 (EST)

I think should keep it here if can't confirm who owns the IP, because only about Baten Kaitos Origins in Smash at present.--Capstalker (talk) 11:06, 11 January 2019 (EST)

I checked the title screen for Baten Kaitos Origins. It makes no mention of Monolith Soft (only mentions Nintendo and Namco), meaning that the IP has to be owned by Namco.24.102.254.69 18:13, May 5, 2020 (EDT)

In case there's a Third-Party Universes page...

If we ever make a "List of third-party universes" page when there's enough third-party universes with minor representation (Trophies, music, Mii costumes, etc.), how should we handle the more "debatable" third-party universes? The candidates I will be talking about are Baten Kaitos, Culdcept, Glory of Heracles, and Fatal Frame.

• There's already a discussion about Baten Kaitos that mentions how ambiguous it is as to who owns the IP.

• Both Culdcept for 3DS and Culdcept Revolt, two of the latest installments in the Culdcept series, are Nintendo published, unlike previous installments. Considering that the boxarts for both games have the words "Published by" above the Nintendo logo (Something that isn't present on other Nintendo-published installments of third-party series such as the Japanese Wii U version of Rayman Legends), it seems clear that Nintendo only owns the publishing rights of Culdcept, which likely means OmiyaSoft still owns the IP.

• Ever since the bankruptcy of Data East, Paon picked up the rights to some of their IPs, including Glory of Heracles. When Paon decided to revive the series for the DS, Nintendo decided to publish that installment. Like with Baten Kaitos, it's another case of ambiguity as to who actually owns the IP.

• And finally, there's Fatal Frame. While Tecmo has published and released the first three games on the PlayStation 2, every installment afterwards has been Nintendo published and released exclusively on their consoles (Even the Wii remake of Fatal Frame 2). However, the original PS2 version of Fatal Frame 2 did get re-released on the PSN Store in 2013, a year after the Fatal Frame 2 Wii remake and before Fatal Frame 5 for Wii U, so it seems that, like with Culdcept, Nintendo only owns the publishing rights to future games while Tecmo Koei owns the IP in general.

So, yeah. How should we handle all of them? SuperSmashTurtles (talk) 02:44, 17 July 2018 (EDT)

This is a pretty interesting issue. I think we should stop looking at this from a publishers' perspective, and instead focus on who owns the IP owners:

• In Baten Kaitos' case, Monolith Soft is entirely owned by Nintendo, therefore it isn't a third party.
• In the case of Fatal Frame, it is both third-party and not at the same time. The IP is shared by Koei Tecmo and Nintendo. In these cases, I'd say Nintendo takes priority, so in regards to Smash, it's a first party title.
• For Glory of Heracles, every source I check states that Paon owns full rights to Glory of Heracles.
• As for Culdcept, I'm not really sure. The legal text on the series' most recent game website says "Culdcept is a trademark of Omiyasoft Co., Ltd". Therefore implying it's third party?

Considering the fact that most of these are third-party, I think it's safe to assume that Nintendo is allowed to add in content from games they published in the series. The series are for sure third-party, but Nintendo seems to be able to take out anything from them as long as it's included in a game that they published. This is my theory anyways. Pokebub (talk) 03:46, 17 July 2018 (EDT)

Actually, while I was reading about Baten Kaitos on Wikipedia, I discovered an interview by Siliconera with the creator of the series. In it, he states "If we can gather more voices for Baten Kaitos, then maybe we can start something with Bandai Namco Entertainment.". This seems to imply that Namco still owns the Baten Kaitos IP. SuperSmashTurtles (talk) 04:45, 17 July 2018 (EDT)

Baten Kaitos is the one I put the least research into. Maybe we can contact someone at Monolith Soft for confirmation? The same goes for Culdcept as well. Pokebub (talk) 04:51, 17 July 2018 (EDT)

Getsu Fuma Den, After Burner, etc.

We should probably come to a consensus about whether we should cover series whose only representation in Smash is through previous crossover content. For example, After Burner is referenced only by way of the name "After Burner Kick" and a music track, both of which were existing reference in Bayonetta and not new references in Smash. Getsu Fuma Den is a similar case where its only known representation is likely indirect through Castlevania: Harmony of Dissonance. Do we cover these as represented series in their own right, or not? (Tangential and sort of-related case: the Marvel vs. Capcom series, by virtue of Mega Man using the MvC version of the Mega Upper in Smash.) Miles (talk) 18:44, 11 September 2018 (EDT)

Should the games mentioned in the Chronicle from Brawl be listed as a Minor Universe?

In the Chronicle, Brawl mentions some games series that wasn't a Trophies, Stickers, Spirits, Music, or even a Mii Fighter outfit. Is the issue with adding those is because they aren't significant enough as game compared to the 5 types of representation for a Minor universe or would they be preferably mentioned on their own page instead? They also list non-video game series especially in the Game & Watch section. (Snoopy, Pop-eye and Mickey Mouse) --MinorEdits (talk) 01:26, 4 November 2018 (EDT)

The problem with the series only mentioned via Chronicle is that they're not really significant enough to warrant a mention and there's WAAAY too many to even list on the page, anyway. SuperSmashTurtles (talk) 12:43, 4 November 2018 (EST)

Should Megami Tensei have its own section?

Since Raving Rabbids got its own section on this page despite all of its content in Smash being listed in the Mario series, I wonder if there should be a Megami Tensei section as well, seeing how Tokyo Mirage Sessions ♯FE (A crossover between Fire Emblem and Shin Megami Tensei) is getting some Spirits in Ultimate.

However, unlike Mario + Rabbids: Kingdom Battle, the Shin Megami Tensei aspects of the game (As far as I know, correct me if I'm wrong) is purely gameplay/aesthetic only, so I don't know if that's enough to warrant a section on this page. SuperSmashTurtles (talk) 15:33, 19 November 2018 (EST)

I think it should be added but we'll wait and see if the associated spirits have the FE logo in game. Guybrush20X6 (talk) 21:23, 20 November 2018 (EST)

Welp, it's been confirmed that a character from Persona 5 is gonna be a DLC Fighter in Ultimate, so it looks like there's no need to add Megami Tensei on this page, after all. SuperSmashTurtles (talk) 23:58, 6 December 2018 (EST)

Yūyūki and Shin Onigashima are both listed in the same series according to Ultimate.

Yūyūki and Shin Onigashima are both listed within the "Famicom Mukashibanashi" game series and not listed as Shin Onigashima for Donbe & Hikari spirit and Yūyūki for Goku and Chao respectively in the game. The game origin is not mentioned at all for these Spirits and considers them both as the Famicom Mukashibanashi" series of games. This isn't like the Shin Megami Tensei issue where Persona is just a sub-series of that game. --MinorEdits (talk) 15:53, 16 December 2018 (EST)

While it is true that both Shin Onigashima and Yuyuki are, indeed, installments of the Famicom Mukashibanashi series, I feel like both games are distinct enough to have their own sections each on the page. If we can give Raving Rabbids its own section despite all of its representation being listed with the Super Mario stuff, then I don't see a problem with Shin Onigashima and Yuyuki being split up. SuperSmashTurtles (talk) 04:04, 17 December 2018 (EST)

Mii Costumes and Mii universes

1.we should be created pages of the Mii Costumes universes, obviously they're more information than some Assist Trophy's.

2. spirits divide StreetPass Mii Plaza, Nintendo Land, Wii Party, Wii Music and Pilotwings into one category in Ultimate， so should we merge them into one universe?--Capstalker (talk) 06:42, 25 December 2018 (EST)

I'm gonna say I have to disagree with both of these suggestions.

• We only give the more minor universes that have some effect on gameplay (Assist Trophies, Items, Enemies, etc.) their own pages. Mii Costumes are purely aesthetic based and nothing else.
• I think all the Mii series universes should stay separate from each other. The only thing they all have in common is that they feature Miis (Except for 2/3 of Pilotwings installments). Otherwise, they are very distinct from each other enough to warrant their own sections.SuperSmashTurtles (talk) 00:48, 26 December 2018 (EST)

• But we also give the Mii Costumes characters own pages, all other characters with pages, and their games also has pages. And some universe pages tcontent is very little, but there is more about Chibi-Robo.
• They all have the Miis as the only playable characters, can't think they are the same series? I don't think them is different from Mario Party , Mario Kart and Mario sports series.--Capstalker (talk) 04:04, 26 December 2018 (EST)

• To be honest, I don't even know why we even gave the Mii Costume-only characters their own page. My best guess is that there aren't that many of them compared to Sticker/Spirit-only characters.
• Even if the games in the Wii series or StreetPass series are technically in the same series, we can still recognize them as distinct enough sub-universes, similar to how Donkey Kong, Yoshi, Wario, and Wrecking Crew are distinct sub-universes of Mario. SuperSmashTurtles (talk) 18:21, 27 December 2018 (EST)

• Back to the topic of universe, Mii Costumes character pages may have fewer content than Assist Trophies or Items, but the universe pages not necessarily, like Chibi-Robo obviously have more content than Sin and Punishment or Steel Diver.
• So we should keep the page of sub-universes and create the page of the main-universe. The question is should Nintendo Land, Wii Party, Wii Music and StreetPass Mii Plaza except Find Mii move to the Mii universe page?--Capstalker (talk) 09:36, 3 January 2019 (EST)

The problem that I see is that not every game that features Miis are listed under the Mii logo. Nintendo Badge Arcade and Rusty's Real Deal Baseball/Darumeshi Sports Shop feature Miis, but they aren't listed under the Mii logo TheAmazingRaspberry (talk) 13:07, 3 January 2019 (EST)

The sub-universes and main-universe distinction is unclear is quite common in Smash. like Viruses trophy not be classified into Mario series in SSB4.--Capstalker (talk) 21:40, 3 January 2019 (EST)

Splitting into Nintendo owned and 3rd party universes

With the number of outside series increasing (and who knows how many SNK series will be brought along for the ride by Terry's arrival) I think we should split the page into two sub sections, one for the Nintendo series and another for the 3rd party series. Guybrush20X6 (talk) 17:41, September 16, 2019 (EDT)

I agree. SNK has six series. If now add the Namco to the page, the third-party universe is almost half of the first-party series.--Capstalker (talk) 09:28, November 6, 2019 (EST)

List of SNK universes

Since Terry brought in a lot of SNK universes with him, I'm wondering if we should make a page dedicated to them similar to how we made one for the Namco universes.

I'm kinda neutral. On one hand, there's a total of 8 SNK universes not represented with any major content; but on the other hand, I'm very unsure if 8 is enough to warrant a page, especially since Namco has brought in 24 (25 is Baten Kaitos is counted) total universes created/owned by them to Smash. SuperSmashTurtles (talk) 10:55, November 6, 2019 (EST)

Terry definitely represents the whole of SNK as Pac-Man does Bandai Namco, but there are a lot less universes to cover in the grand scheme of things. Aidan, the Rurouni 10:58, November 6, 2019 (EST)

I think should put all the third-party minor universes on one page. if need to distinguish companies, just add a secondary title.--Capstalker (talk) 11:00, November 6, 2019 (EST)

I'm on the fence with it as well. I'd say probably, sine SNk has morning verses represented right now than any of the other minor universes. However, most of those are only songs so idk. CookiesCreme 11:01, November 6, 2019 (EST)

Generally somewhat opposed. Obviously wherever the line between "belongs here" versus "belongs on its own page" is going to arbitrary wherever it's drawn, but I think the SNK stuff, while plentiful, isn't quite enough to fwarrant its own whole page. Miles (talk) 11:46, November 6, 2019 (EST)

I support since SNK is getting a major representation in SSBU. 174.55.24.64 12:18, November 6, 2019 (EST)

So, I don't understand not put all third-party minor universes on a single page. If we can divide the company like this, one page is enough. --Capstalker (talk) 22:01, November 6, 2019 (EST)

To me, it would look much more crowded than it is already, especially with a huge portion of the page being Namco universes. CookiesCreme 22:06, November 6, 2019 (EST)

I mean, the first-party and third-party minor universes are one page each, and the third-party universes add Namco are only half of the first-party universes.--Capstalker (talk) 22:31, November 6, 2019 (EST)

I support this one. Also, only KOF needs to have its own page since it's so big for having cameos & musics, while the rest, due to having pretty small contents appearing in Smash should be in their own minor section for SNK universes page. Contents originate from their debut games should be placed in different pages/sections. List of minor universe page should be for single universes created by different companies who owns the rights, not multiple universes created by a same company. As for Art of Fighting and Psycho Soldier should be on respective pages that shares same universes & timelines w/ them (eg. Art of Fighting series still count as part of Fatal Fury series because of Geese & Ryo's timeline connections; while Psycho Soldier still count as part of Athena series due to Asamiya being modern-day descendant of the OG Athena) 103.121.18.3 16:00, November 12, 2019 (EST)

Baten Kaitos (again)

There's been ongoing discussion and action regarding whether Baten Kaitos should be considered a Namco property. I disagree on this one, since it's not grouped with other Namco series in contexts like spirits and music (as their only involvement was in publishing, not developing), and its only form of representation in Smash is through the Nintendo-published installment in the series. Although it's been mentioned earlier that it's ambiguous as to who actually owns the property, I'd also like to add that its sorting in Smash 4 indicates it's meant to be taken as a Monolith Soft/Nintendo property rather than Namco. It's like, technically Namco, but not actually Namco in terms of its categorization. ~ Serena Strawberry (talk) 00:03, November 27, 2019 (EST)

And as an aside, the merge proposal mentions Tales as a similar example, but that comparison doesn't really work because the series is developed and published in-house by Namco, so there's no ambiguity whatsoever. ~ Serena Strawberry (talk) 00:07, November 27, 2019 (EST)

If can't determine who actually owns, and I think it's more reasonable to count it as the second-party. because it seems that only the Origins is involved in the Smash, there is no other game.--Capstalker (talk) 01:40, November 27, 2019 (EST)

According to trademark information and going by the original publisher, I'm pretty sure it belongs to Bandai Namco. Regardless of how it's grouped or treated in Smash Bros., it's still legally a third-party series. NuFace (talk) 03:12, November 27, 2019 (EST)

Okay, here's something interesting; the Baten Kaitos Origins trademark, which was held by Namco, expired in 2014 and wasn't renewed (as seen on the page you just linked). The original Baten Kaitos trademark, however, is still owned by Namco and was renewed in 2015. If I'm interpreting this right, it means that Nintendo itself owns specifically Baten Kaitos Origins (as they published it and gained the rights after purchasing Monolith Soft in 2007), while Namco still owns the original Baten Kaitos, and so Nintendo can't use it without their permission. That's probably more comparable to Xenosaga being owned by Namco while Xenoblade is owned by Nintendo, but it's still a complicated issue because it means the rights to these two games in the same franchise are split between their publishers. It's not purely a Namco series or purely a Nintendo series, but in terms of the Smash rep it's legally second-party. ~ Serena Strawberry (talk) 15:14, November 27, 2019 (EST)

Regardless, it might be easier to just put all the third-parties on one page. ~ Serena Strawberry (talk) 15:51, November 27, 2019 (EST)

Regarding Rabbids

The reason I put the French name there is because it's kind of an unprecedented scenario. If I'm not mistaken, Ubisoft is the only non-English non-Japanese studio to participate in Smash? So Rabbids having a different name in the original French felt notable to me, but I know there haven't really been any other examples of cases similar to this. Would it still be worth noting or no? ~ Serena Strawberry (talk) 14:11, January 16, 2020 (EST)

I don't see any problem with it. It is the original name, after all. Anthony1996 (talk) 15:39, January 16, 2020 (EST)

Wonderful 101 going solo?

With the launch of their new Kickstarter which Platinum will self publish and not only bring to the Switch but Steam and PS4, is it fair to call Wonderful 101 a 1st party IP anymore if Nintendo doesn't have exclusive publishing rights. Guybrush20X6 (talk) 16:13, February 3, 2020 (EST)

From what I've been hearing they still own the property. This is just a really unusual case where they're allowing it to leave their platforms so long as Platinum themselves handle the bulk of the work. NuFace (talk)

Yeah. The only way to figure out if a franchise is second or third party would be stuff like this. It's proven that Wonderful 101 is a wholly owned Platinum IP, so yes, it would be third party.24.102.254.69 18:08, May 5, 2020 (EDT)

Franchises that are technically represented, but not acknowledged as their own series

So I had a discussion about a month ago on a currently unused (and candidate for deletion) image for the Final Fight logo, and the topic concluded with a suggestion for a section on this page that covers franchises that are technically represented in Smash, but the franchises themselves aren't directly acknowledged.

Stuff like the aforementioned Final Fight, Flicky, and debatably Policenauts have representation in the Smash series via the Cody spirit in Ultimate, Flicky herself appearing on the Windy Hill Zone stage, and the Meryl Silverburgh sticker in Brawl and spirit in Ultimate. However, all their content is counted as Street Fighter, Sonic, and Metal Gear content respectively, as their appearances in Smash are strictly based on their appearances in those series rather than their own.

The Namco and SNK franchises are a different case, where they're more of a representation of their companies as a whole rather than being strictly integrated into (one of) the company's main franchise(s). While the SNK franchises are somewhat closer to the above mentioned franchises, the difference between the two groups is that the SNK franchises are actually acknowledged as their own series, as evident by the Spirits menu, where none of the non-playable SNK series spirits have the Fatal Fury series symbol and are instead grouped with the "Others" spirits. Furthermore, while the designs of the non-Fatal Fury characters seen in the King of Fighters Stadium stage are based on their appearances in The King of Fighters series, their spirits use artwork from their respective series (most noticeable with Athena Asamiya and the Ikari Warriors protagonist). The trophies and spirits for the miscellaneous Namco series have also always been categorized as "Others" rather than strictly Pac-Man. Sure, both of these groups of franchises have had their music tracks grouped with the Pac-Man and Fatal Fury music list, but they are atleast still acknowledged as their own series as evident by the Sound Test.

Anyway, the only universe on this page that I would consider moving to this potential section is After Burner, since, unlike with the Namco and SNK franchises, After Burner (∞ Climax Mix) was only ever sourced as a Bayonetta music track in the Sound Test menu, despite its origins in the After Burner series. I would say the same for Getsu Fuma Den, but that game's sole representation, the Go! Getsu Fuma music track, actually lists Getsu Fuma Den as its source in the Sound Test menu, so I'm not entirely sure.

One franchise I'm pretty iffy on where to put it in is Shin Megami Tensei thanks to Tokyo Mirage Sessions getting representation via the Tsubasa Oribe spirits, which are categorized as Fire Emblem spirits. This is especially troublesome after Rabbids got direct representation with the Rabbids Hat via DLC.

To conclude this, I really don't think we should make them as detailed as the franchises that have direct representation (such as giving them logos, infoboxes, or their Japanese/original non-English names), but the list would atleast mention the representation and maybe a very brief summary of the franchise, something like this:

• Final Fight: A series of beat 'em up games by Capcom. Cody appears as a spirit in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, where he is categorized as a Street Fighter spirit.
• Flicky: A platform game by Sega first released for arcades. Flicky herself makes a cameo on the Windy Hill Zone stage in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U and Ultimate.

So yeah, feel free to give out your thoughts on this suggestion. SuperSmashTurtles (talk) 01:57, February 16, 2020 (EST)

Personally I think that since the descriptions will be very brief and the number of these franchises is so small, individual sections for each franchise aren't necessary and one section containing all of them will do, assuming something won't happen that will justify breaking them up into their own sections. But if we have to, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. I'd also lump the Shin Megami Tensei series with the Persona series because the latter is a spin-off of the former. Otherwise I'm all for this idea.

(Also something that bugged me; the "Ikari Warriors protagonist" is both Ralf and Clark, making them protagonists.) TotallyNotAutomated (talk) 03:51, February 16, 2020 (EST)

Ah, shoot! I swear to God that I thought I wrote "protagonists". Thanks for pointing that out. SuperSmashTurtles (talk) 11:42, February 16, 2020 (EST)

Yeah, I'd believe this to be a good compromise between what's meticulous and what's necessary. However, would it be worth adding Tingle to that list, or is that covered under Zelda? and should After Burner be moved to this list? --What could possibly go wrong? - BubzieBobkat (talk) 04:15, March 20, 2020 (EDT)

The Tingle games are spin-offs of the Zelda franchise, not to mention that all content from the Tingle games in Smash is considered Zelda content anyway, so that's gonna be a no.

And I already suggested moving After Burner to this potential mini-section. SuperSmashTurtles of the Turtle Tribe 04:25, March 20, 2020 (EDT)

OK, that makes sense! I was thinking the name for these universes could be "dependent universes." --What could possibly go wrong? - BubzieBobkat (talk) 08:16, March 20, 2020 (EDT)

It seems a bit like a stretch to me, but I think it's probably harmless, so yeah it should be fine. After Burner should definitely go in here, and I think Getsu Fuma Den should too. ~ Serena Strawberry (talk) 01:25, March 31, 2020 (EDT)

As I've said before, Getsu Fuma Den was atleast acknowledged in-game (somewhat like the Namco franchises in Ultimate), so I'm not super sure if it should be moved there. I definitely agree with you on After Burner, though (and I would say Rabbids too if it weren't for the fact that the series got a Mii headgear). SuperSmashTurtles of the Turtle Tribe 01:33, March 31, 2020 (EDT)

Outdated(?) Names

So I noticed there are a lot of universes on this page whose current names some people might not necessarily agree with, so I made a list of the ones that I feel might have strong reasons to have their name changed, whether I agree with those reasons or not.

• bit Generations

Possible name change(s): Art Style or Digiluxe

Reasons for the name change: The series has a follow-up series called Art Style, which, unlike bit Generation, has localized installments. Alternatively, it could be renamed Digiluxe, as not only was that the title for bit Generation's planned but cancelled localized release, but it's referred to as that in Brawl.

Reasons to keep current name: bit Generations is clearly what the stickers are based on. Not to mention, Art Style is still the name of the follow-up series in Japan, so it's more of a "brand name" than anything. As for Digiluxe, it's a title that never got official use as the localized release was cancelled, so it's probably best not to use that name.

My opinion: Keep as is.

• Calciobit

Possible name change(s): Nintendo Pocket Football Club

Reasons for the name change: It's the only localized title for the series, not to mention the image we have for it right now uses the English logo as well.

Reasons to keep current name: Only one installment was ever localized, not to mention that's what the series is called in Ultimate. In addition, Nintendo Pocket Football Club is a bit on the long side. Lastly, ParityBit seems to have full ownership of the IP, as there is a mobile installment of the series with no involvement from Nintendo from what I could find. A Nintendo World Cup kind of deal, it seems.

My opinion: Keep as is, probably change the logo too.

• Detective Club

Possible name change(s): Famicom Tantei Club or just Tantei Club

Reasons for a name change: All other Japan-exclusive universes use their Romanized names rather than direct translations. In addition, the series is referred to as Famicom Tantei Club Series in Ultimate. Tantei Club could also be used as an alternative since BS Tantei Club is a game that existed.

Reasons to keep current name: Ayumi Tachibana's trophy in Melee does refer it to as Detective Club.

My opinion: Change name to Tantei Club. If the Switch remakes do get localized, then change it to whatever the English title may be.

• Disaster: Day of Crisis

Possible name change(s): Disaster

Reasons for the name change: Day of Crisis is a subtitle, which we generally don't use in the main names and only reserve them for the universe descriptions.

Reasons to keep current name: Disaster doesn't quite flow as well without the subtitle.

My opinion: Not sure, leaning towards "Keep as is".

• Hotel Dusk

Possible name change(s): Kyle Hyde

Reasons for the name change: It is a good way to refer to both games in the series, as neither one shares even a single word. We also aren't a stranger to fan nicknames (see Nintendo Wars).

Reasons to keep current name: Is it really a good idea to use fan nicknames instead of going with the official names? Additionally, poor Kyle never got the Altaïr treatment.

My opinion: Not sure, but leaning towards "keep as is".

• Magical Starsign

Possible name change(s): Magical Vacation

Reasons for the name change: Only one installment was ever localized. Not to mention that's what the series is called in Ultimate.

Reasons to keep current name: ...But to be fair, there are only two installments, and we still use the English names for series that have a way higher ratio of Japan-exclusive games (See The Legendary Starfy and Jam with the Band, whose English names ARE actually used in Ultimate). In addition, even Smash itself has proven to be an unreliable source sometimes, such as calling the Monster spirit's series origin "Famicom Grand Prix II: 3D Hot Rally Series". On a related note, Stunt Race FX is referred to by its Japanese name, Wild Trax, in the North American versions of Brawl, so this issue isn't anything new.

My opinion: Keep as is.

• Make 10: A Journey of Numbers

Possible name change(s): Make 10

Reasons for the name change: "Make 10" is a term that is heavily used throughout the game, meaning that Make 10 is supposed to be the main title. We generally only use subtitles in the universe descriptions. Also, the current name is a bit on the long side.

Reasons to keep current name: None that I can think of other than I just think "Make 10" looks a little weird by itself.

My opinion: Not sure, leaning towards "Change the name".

• Ouendan

Possible name change(s): Elite Beat Agents

Reasons for the name change: It's the only localized title for the series.

Reasons to keep current name: Only one installment was ever localized. In addition, Elite Beat Agents is somewhat of a different IP than Ouendan, since it's mostly just a retooled version made for Western audiences.

My opinion: Keep as is.

• Shaberu! DS Oryōri Navi

Possible name change(s): Personal Trainer: Cooking or Cooking Guide

Reasons for the name change: These 2 are the only localized names for the series. Plus, that's what the series is referred to as in Ultimate (in the American English and European English versions, respectively)

Reasons to keep current name: This is yet another series that's mostly Japan-exclusive. In addition, some of the names have different reasons for opposition. For Personal Trainer: Cooking, it does have a brand name used for other unrelated games attached to it, so it could be quite awkward, but removing the brand name would just leave it as Cooking, which wouldn't be an ideal name at all. For Cooking Guide, while it does lack a brand name, we generally only use the European names if they're the only localized names available. Otherwise, we always use the American names

My opinion: I'm honestly not sure, but I will oppose towards the Cooking Guide name.

• Thru

Possible name change(s): ThruSpace or Ketzal's Corridors

Reasons for the name change: Thru appears to be a fan nickname that is used to refer to both games, since Ketzal's Corridors is called SpeedThru in PAL regions. Alternatively, Ketzal's Corridors could be used as that's the sole representation in the Smash series.

Reasons to keep current name: ...Atleast it's somewhat of a way to refer to the series as a whole?

My opinion: Drop the Thru name entirely, but I'm unsure if I would go with ThruSpace or Ketzal's Corridors.

• Trace Memory

Possible name change(s): Another Code

Reasons for the name change: Unlike other examples, this one is both the Japanese AND European English title for the series. With the second game only being localized in Europe, this is a reason to use the European name.

Reasons to keep current name: Again, we only use the European names if they're the only localized names available. Otherwise, we only use the American names.

My opinion: Keep as is.

• Tsukutte Utau: Saru Band

Possible name change(s): Saru Band

Reasons for the name change: Unlike other universes that currently use their subtitles (like Code Name: S.T.E.A.M., Disaster: Day of Crisis, or Make 10: A Journey of Numbers), this one can flow well even without its subtitle (which in this case is Tsukutte Utau), which are generally only used for universe descriptions.

Reasons to keep current name: None that I can think of.

My opinion: Change the name.

And that's all I got. Feel free to give out your opinions. SuperSmashTurtles of the Turtle Tribe 10:41, March 5, 2020 (EST)

Forgot to mention this in the Ouendan section: Another possible name change I have in mind is Osu! Tatakae! Ouendan, since that's what the series is called in Ultimate. I'm a bit neutral on this one.

Also, ignore the "use their Romanized names" part in the Detective Club section. I actually meant to say "Hepburn names". SuperSmashTurtles of the Turtle Tribe 11:09, March 5, 2020 (EST)

Split the 3rd-party minor universes onto a seperate page.

Looking at this page there are a lot of minor universes. With DLC coming should they add more minor universes, this page is going to be come very long crowded, which is why I believe we should split Nintendo owned and 3rd party minor universes. Perhaps the 3rd party section can also be merged with the Namco universes, considering that was suggested to be turned into a 3rd party minor universe page in the past. OmegαToαd the Toαd Wαrrior (BUP) 22:39, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

Neutral I agree at the same time I disagree because one we can put them on new categries or articles that splits them up by the company. However, I sort of disagree because there can be some series that can be owned or previously owned by like 2 companies. Overall, I'm neutral because of the following reasons.S3AHAWK (talk) 01:51, April 19, 2020 (EDT)

In fact, now this page has separated the two. So even if we don't split the page, there will be this problem.--Capstalker (talk) 05:12, April 21, 2020 (EDT)

Agree Nintendo doesn't have a own page but Namco does. It's not reasonable.--Capstalker (talk) 05:12, April 21, 2020 (EDT)

Agree This makes sense to me. Especially since Terry bringing almost every franchise SNK has with him, who knows what kind of craziness might possibly happen in the future. As you mentioned, it would also be a good idea to merge Namco with the 3rd party page. --Scoobymcsnack (talk) 12:56, April 22, 2020 (EDT)

Agree This is actually an ongoing discussion on the Namco page as well, though there is no consensus there. However, this page is getting too long. If more 3rd Parties are added, or, heck, more 1st parties, this page will get unbelievably long and unwieldy. I vote we create a new third party page and merge the Namco page into it, or rename the Namco page to a general third party page and move all other third party companies to it. That seems to be the right move at this point, lest this page get out of control. By the way, how many people need to vote on this for there to be a consensus?Super Smash Lover (talk) 23:20, April 22, 2020 (EDT)

Agree Pac-Man’s inclusion led to plenty of Namco universes to be in the Smash franchise. Same with Terry leading to some SNK universes. Perhaps this page should be split into three lists. One listing first-parties. Another listing second-parties (if there are second party universes). And the third one listing third parties. SonDaniel (talk page) 17:13, April 28, 2020 (EDT)

A little neutral As long as Namco and SNK get their own sections and aren't lumped together with the others, then I wouldn't be against the idea.

My real concern with this move is how we should handle some of the more "debatable" ones (such as Glory of Heracles, The Tower, Culdcept, and Baten Kaitos I also wanna say Chalien since the first game was published by Creatures, but it seems that IP is under Ninty's control now. I know Torchickens has strong enough knowledge on the series, so maybe they can provide the answer.). While these IPs are technically owned by third-parties (Paon, Vivarium, OmiyaSoft, and Bandai Namco respectively ps i still don't understand how not being made in-house by namco warrants exclusion from the namco universes list), their content in Smash is heavily based on the installments that Nintendo published (Glory of Heracles for the DS, The Tower SP, Culdcept for 3DS and Culdcept Revolt, and Baten Kaitos Origins).

This isn't a case like with Rayman Legends where, although treated like a first-party property in Ultimate's Spirit menu, it's well known that they only had the publishing rights for the Wii U version in Japan and that's it; For these, there's info that Nintendo might own certain aspects of these installments of IPs that they otherwise don't own.

Though admittedly, my preferred choice is to group each universe by the game they debuted in (Melee would have stuff like Doshin the Giant, Cubivore, and Mach Rider; Brawl would have Hotel Dusk, Stunt Race FX, Tetris; etc.). Given how this would require prior knowledge (and the rather "hard to find" kind, for that matter) for the common reader, I can definitely understand why this route wouldn't work. SuperSmashTurtles of the Turtle Tribe 23:51, April 29, 2020 (EDT)

You do have a point about how some games have been published by Nintendo despite being 3rd party, and frankly I didn't know about that. In my opinion I don't think it matters too much because they are still 3rd party, but at the same time we do things by the way they are in Smash so this would need a discussion too. OmegαToαd64 • the Best Kαrter 01:06, April 30, 2020 (EDT)

I have splitted the page into two sections: the first one is for minor Nintendo universes and the second one is for minor third-party universes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Galarto (talk • contribs) 20:15, May 9, 2020

Next time please wait for permission from the creator of the proposal before splitting. There are templates that need to be fixed because of the premature move. CookiesCreme 20:38, May 9, 2020 (EDT)