Forum:Further documentation on unplayable characters: Difference between revisions

Forum:Further documentation on unplayable characters (edit)

Revision as of 00:23, April 19, 2023

2,731 bytes added , 1 year ago

Response

Plague von Karma

Administrators

2,531

edits

@@ Line 32: / Line 32: @@
 --[[File:PlagueSigImage.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:PlagueSigImage.png|20px]] 20:41, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
 :I think the reason why the Hands have per-game pages is because their movesets change drastically in each game. I do think detailed move lists and even specific move hitbox data are definitely a very good idea, though I'm not particularly keen on separating each one of them per-game like the Hands. The reason why certain mods have their own pages is because of their competitive usage, and in your draft of the Melee Giga Bowser page, it's stated that his competitive usage is very low. Also, aside from Galleom, Ridley, Giga Bowser, and the Fighting Mii Team (which is just a stripped down version of playable characters) none of them have appeared in more than one game, so making separate pages for each boss is just bloat, especially for smash-original ones where figuring out what would be on the main and specific game pages would be a nightmare. I think only Giga Bowser, fighting teams (besides the Miis and Polygons, which should just be covered on the base fighters' pages; in other words just the two Wireframes and four Alloys), and maybe 64 Giant DK and 64 Metal Mario depending on how changed they are from their base character they are, should potentially get separated pages, and even then I'm iffy. The rest have pretty bare movesets and were only in one game, and when Galleom came back he only got like 2 new moves, and Ridley getting Brawl and Smash 4 pages would indirectly imply he was playable before Ultimate. Stage bosses should definitely not have their own pages, as aside from Ridley they have barebones movesets and what actually counts as a stage boss is kind of subjective.  [[User:Unnamed anon|Unnamed anon]] ([[User talk:Unnamed anon|talk]]) 23:59, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
+:In my opinion, if Project M, P+, etc characters can have a page, then so can Giga Bowser and SSBB Rayquaza. Easily. There is far more tie to the games and I'd argue that cheating devices have historically been more accessible than mods like P+. Hell, I'm pretty sure more people have at least tried Giga Bowser over the years than those who have tried P+ Knuckles. When has single-game availability stopped anything in the pursuit of documenting every game to the best of a wiki's capabilities?
+:"Bloat" is only a valid argument in cases where the information is useless. Keep in mind that this is an encyclopedia that is meant to cover all things Smash. I've more than explained and demonstrated why and how it isn't bloat here - hacking is a valid way to play the game and there is competitive experimentation. They don't need to be added on competitive merit, necessarily - the characters are playable, just not without cheats. Casual play exists and that is why items and such are well-documented, even if they're exceptionally minor. With game preservation in a death knell and cheating baked into emulation, you could argue it's even a moot point. That's why Melee's unplayables are argued for tournament legality at all.
+:If you want a boundary, here's a nice and easy one: "Do these characters have usable movesets and controls when loaded in-game with no other modifications?". Think of it like...unearthing unused characters. That covers Metal Mario, Giga Bowser, and Rayquaza. If I recall correctly, that doesn't cover Sandbag (well...sorta) and SSB4 Ridley. I think Metal Mario and Giant Donkey Kong are fine to have their own pages as they are individual characters - Metal Mario, notably, plays very differently. Like, this is the game with the original Luigi...c'mon, lol. Anyway, I think this would be what most people are looking for when they're hacking in unplayable characters - their aim is to make them playable, this helps them experience it to the best of their ability.
+:I like your thoughts on the Polygons and Miis, but it's a bit iffy when applied to others. The Wireframes are actually significantly different characters, having entirely different hitboxes, and I remember the Alloys being similar. Perhaps they should just be treated appropriately - Polygons on namesake pages, Wireframes and Alloys not. The Polygons don't even really have names unlike the others, so it makes sense.
+:Gave me a lot of thoughts! Hope this response clears things up. - [[File:PlagueSigImage.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:PlagueSigImage.png|20px]] 00:23, April 19, 2023 (EDT)