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:Maybe it's more similar in Melee, but nevertheless there are differences between what is generally understood as knockback, and the effect the cape has on opponents, so I think it's accurate to list it as not doing knockback. The only exception is that in Ultimate, moves with the reverse effect now just apply the calculated knockback to opponents hanging on the ledge (while in Melee it would apply a set amount of momentum to them, and use the HITSTUN from the knockback calculation). ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 14:56, October 24, 2021 (EDT) | :Maybe it's more similar in Melee, but nevertheless there are differences between what is generally understood as knockback, and the effect the cape has on opponents, so I think it's accurate to list it as not doing knockback. The only exception is that in Ultimate, moves with the reverse effect now just apply the calculated knockback to opponents hanging on the ledge (while in Melee it would apply a set amount of momentum to them, and use the HITSTUN from the knockback calculation). ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 14:56, October 24, 2021 (EDT) | ||
::Got a word from PM dev that Cape is 0KB hitbox in Brawl, which means it's distinctly different. In melee, 0KB cape wouldn't even apply reverse effect, and the associated set knockback velocity. Indeed, for instance Yoshi's dj armor prevents reverse effect and the velocity until yoshi is at high enough % that the *normally calculated* knockback dealt by cape exceeds the armor. | |||
::In melee, cape very much deals knockback and knockback velocity on hit, and the knockback velocity follows normal rules of stacking and interaction. The detail that the knockback velocity isn't normally proportional to the knockback is asine. I propose the article should be changed to list Cape 0 KB from Brawl onwards, (or just Brawl, i've got no idea). [[User:TauKhan|TauKhan]] ([[User talk:TauKhan|talk]]) 03:04, October 25, 2021 (EDT) | |||
:::"Got a word from PM dev that Cape is 0KB hitbox in Brawl"...and yet it still pushes opponents back, just like it does in Melee. See what I mean? Also, I already covered that the knockback formula is run when the attack connects in Melee, and as I said it is used to determine hitstun for opponents hanging on the ledge. The fact that it is also used to determine armour breaking doesn't change anything, the game still does not apply this knockback to the opponent, and instead applies a special form of momentum to them, which shares some properties with knockback, but it distinct from it. With regards to future games, I can confirm that the hitbox also has 0 knockback in Smash 4, but is programmed with WBKB of 80 in Ultimate, which is once again not actually applied to the opponent, with the exception that now hitting opponents on the edge actually DOES apply the result of the knockback calculation to opponents. I think with the generally understood meaning of knockback, the article is accurate in its current state. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 03:17, October 25, 2021 (EDT) | |||
::::"and instead applies a special form of momentum to them" There's nothing special about the momentum applied in Melee. It's just knockback velocity. It's *totally* indistinguishable from any other sort of knockback velocity induced by any other attack in Melee. Cape deals knockback, and if the received knockback > 0, applies reverse effect with set knockback velocity. It deals knockback. What it does in Brawl I don't know yet. Though it probably still just applies knockback velocity. That is irrelevant to the proposal of excepting Melee in the article. [[User:TauKhan|TauKhan]] ([[User talk:TauKhan|talk]]) 05:52, October 25, 2021 (EDT) | |||
== Meta Ridley == | |||
I tried for several minutes to get him to perform Mega Fire Ball at full health, but he only ever did rapid fire, slam, swoop, and claw sweep. At around 60% he started using it, and it was a OHKO even at that high, so I don't think the note is needed either way. As for it OHKOing on Very Hard, it OHKOd at every part unless you are close to the back blue part, so it can OHKO from center. Perhaps that one at least can be re-added with a more descriptive note. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 18:42, November 2, 2021 (EDT) | |||
:[[File:FireBallIntense.gif|right|300px]]Meta Ridley can definitely use the move at full HP. As for whether it will OHKO at full HP, as you can see it is very borderline. If the move launches you to the right, it will sometimes KO and sometimes not, and if it launches you to the left, it never will. Due to its inconsistency, it doesn't seem right to include it to me. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 20:10, November 2, 2021 (EDT) | |||
::I'm not sure why I couldn't get him to use it that high, but alright. Are we factoring in DI or no? I got a [https://youtu.be/4ZEFZEH1MM0 KO further to the left] (granted, at lower HP) without DI. If we both did no DI then yeah it is inconsistent. If DI is important then my point is invalid. I guess either way it means it shouldn't be listed, more for future reference. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 20:28, November 2, 2021 (EDT) | |||
:::I used no DI. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 05:30, November 3, 2021 (EDT) | |||
== Speed and Shield Shulk Dash Attack == | |||
Hey, I noticed you added a tag for additional images of Shulk's dash attack, but I fail to see what's different about Speed and Shield Art versions of that move. I'm assuming it's the distance Shulk travels, but that would literally be impossible to visualize as the dash attack uses its animation for distance. This means I can't shorten or lengthen it, nor do I know by how much as there's nothing to indicate it. Since I'm pretty much the only one to do hitboxes for ''Ultimate'' and the only one crazy enough to manually do projectiles (which would be similar to manually moving Shulk to account for the Arts), I think it's best to remove the tag and mention that those Arts affect the distance. [[User:Zeckemyro|Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck]] ([[User talk:Zeckemyro|talk]]) 11:44, February 2, 2022 (EST) | |||
:There may well be a way to visualize it. I don't think we should remove tags just because no one is up to the task at the present time. The range will be affected by how far Shulk moves forward, and this is relevant. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 11:59, February 2, 2022 (EST) | |||
::If you find out how many units per frame it adds/removes, just lemme know because I can change the camera settings for that. If you test in-game to eyeball it, remember one training mode square is 1.07 unit in reality. [[User:Zeckemyro|Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck]] ([[User talk:Zeckemyro|talk]]) 12:02, February 2, 2022 (EST) | |||
:::Well the [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rwDPL1jhE-KuEbbcBkkTb44z1smJp9rYme_xb4BIJTk/edit#gid=314137474 params] list "spd_dash_attack_Speed_mul" and "shield_dash_attack_speed_mul" as 1.5 and 0.7 respectively, so that would be my best guess. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 12:06, February 2, 2022 (EST) | |||
::::I tested in-game and can verify the 1.5 and 0.7 values. Shulk went 1.5/0.7 times the distance overall and per frame. If you need values, here's a [https://pastebin.com/DMLeACXM pastebin] of the first 40 frames with frame 1 as the zero (I'd only trust them within 0.05u at most). I found the animation files, opened them in Blender, and scaled them by 1.5/0.7 and got somewhat close to what I tested. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 18:56, February 2, 2022 (EST) | |||
== Final Smash-Assist Trophy Connections == | |||
I figure it's pretty much immaterial now but upon thinking I would say that on the topic of the [[Cook Kirby]] trivia section, that final smash and [[Chef Kawasaki]] don't really have the same function (e.g. Kawasaki uses a ladle to trap fighters, only drops one piece of food rather than several, and can also throw plates), but at the same time, neither do [[Negative Zone]] and [[Ashley]], as while they have some commonalities (e.g. forming a dark zone around themself with some of the same possible hindering effects like damage and slowing), they do not share all their effects (e.g. Negative Zone can increase knockback, Ashley can disable recovery moves). Thus, it seems that trivium is invalid not because there are 2 examples, but because there are none (at least, none I can recall). But if you disagree about Negative Zone and Ashley being significantly different though then I guess you could put that trivium on the Negative Zone page if you feel it belongs. [[User:Pk62001|Pk62001]] ([[User talk:Pk62001|talk]]) 20:45, April 7, 2022 (EDT) | |||
==Delete Account== | |||
Hi, I would to know how to delete my SmashWiki account. Please respond. [[User:Daniel1204|Daniel1204]][[File:SonDanielSignatureHead1.png|20px]][[File:SonDanielSignatureHead2.png|20px]] ([[User talk:Daniel1204|talk page]]) 14:07, April 19, 2022 (EDT) | |||
:I can't help you with that, you'll have to talk to a [[SW:ADMIN|bureaucrat]]. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 14:15, April 19, 2022 (EDT) | |||
::Pretty sure your wiki account can't be deleted. [[File:Grand Dad.png|23x20px]] [[User:NaughtyPigMario|<span style="color: red;">'''NPM'''</span>]] [[User talk:NaughtyPigMario|''<span style="color: blue;">Morr!?</span>'']] [[File:NaughtyPigBoi.jpg|23x20px]] 14:17, April 19, 2022 (EDT) | |||
== Position shifting aerials == | |||
Saw your subpage and decided to look in to the animation files. [https://pastebin.com/rXX2WN5R Here] is every character's position on every frame of forward/back air (excluding the ones with no animation movement). This doesn't factor in character scaling (eg WFT's values would be multiplied by 0.96) or physics related movement (such as stick movement or stuff like Corrin's bair). The values you have are also off by a factor of 10, so WFT's 0.36 would actually be 3.6; the lines in Training that are labeled are increments of 50 instead of the labeled 5. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 11:09, May 15, 2022 (EDT) | |||
:Hi, thanks for the info, it's definitely interesting. Regarding the units, I was explicitly using the labelled units, so the values are correct for the units I was using. I would want to continue to use these units because anyone can easily visualize them. It would probably be difficult to translate all the numbers across, and it also doesn't help that I would have to manually count out the frames to find the interruptible frame, so I'm not 100% sure what to do with this data. Complicating things further is that some of these shifts are so slight that they're effectively like rounding errors, that is to say they are so small they can effectively be ignored. I'm also having trouble verifying some of these, for example Yoshi's Fair doesn't actually seem to shift him forward at all in-game, at least as far as the player arrow is concerned, and having him land on frame 18 (which should give him the frame 17 offset) doesn't have him land any further forward either. Are you sure we're talking about the same thing? ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 12:45, May 15, 2022 (EDT) | |||
::I'm pretty sure we're talking about the same thing. WFT's Bair has an ending position of 4.036 and is scaled by 0.96 to 3.87456. I tested found that in game it was about 3.6-3.7, which I would say is close enough considering the movement caused by doing aerials. Mario's Bair is a bit more feasible than Yoshi's Fair. On the far-left ledge in Training, get right up next to it but face away, double-jump, Bair. If performed too early, he won't land on the ledge even if using smash stick for aerials. Perform it later and he'll successfully land while his feet are out. I also looked into up, down, and neutral aerials and found some that had movement, but landing on the appropriate frames yielded no movement like you've found. Yoshi's Dair ends with a small offset and when I used it multiple times in a wind area he seemed to go the opposite direction, so perhaps the game is compensating. I do agree that most of these are negligible or are drowned out by other forces. If anything, the list lets you know to ignore anyone not on it and what values to expect (especially if a way to do aerials without movement is found or the amount can be figured and subtracted). --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 13:19, May 15, 2022 (EDT) | |||
:::I really don't think we're talking about the same thing. There is definitely a distinction between the temporary position shifting of moves like Pikachu's Bair, which will affect your position when landing, and unambiguously changes where the game considers your character to be, and the more animation-based position shifting of moves like Yoshi's Fair, which has him lean forward, but in test after test does not appear to actually change where the game considers Yoshi to be. Maybe there's some hidden parameter or flag or something that decides whether or not the game considers the fighter's ''position'' to have changed in accordance with these values, or maybe something else is going on, but to clarify, I'm only interested in moves which meaningfully shift a character's position. | |||
:::By the way, you can compensate for the drift caused by the c-stick. Use frame by frame to make an input on the C-stick for one frame, then a few frames later, while the character is still inactionable, and definitely no longer drifting, input in the opposite direction for a frame. The drifts will cancel out. How long you have to wait between inputs obviously varies from character to character because of friction and acceleration differences, but it should always be possible to cancel out the effect. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 13:30, May 15, 2022 (EDT) | |||
::::Perhaps the ECB is set to follow the trans bone on Mario's, Pikachu's, and WFT's Bairs and thus allow their animation movement be tied to their physical movement, but I can't verify that. I tested Pikachu's Bair and was able to land with around 7 units of displacement around frame 12, which is the around the trans bone position on that frame. That plus WFT's leads me to believe that we are on about the same thing, but I can't verify or explain the other characters nor am I going to harp on about it. | |||
::::I kept getting very slight movement when I tried that, but I didn't try very long. I'll mess around with that another day. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 14:39, May 15, 2022 (EDT) | |||
== Green Hill Zone == | |||
Just because something is unique to a stage doesn't necessarily make it "odd". The leaves on Hanenbow will return to green and straighten out over time, that's their mechanic. The minecarts on The Great Cave Offensive will move if someone enters them or own their own over time, that's its mechanic. The sections on Green Hill Zone break when damaged or own their own over time, that's their mechanic. Not everything needs to play by the same rules. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 20:40, June 22, 2022 (EDT) | |||
:Those aren't fair comparisons. There are many instances of destroyable terrain, and almost all of them behave in the same way, needing to be damaged by attacks or items to break. GHZ is the sole exception to this. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 21:02, June 22, 2022 (EDT) | |||
::The major point is that it doesn't need to be described as "odd", it can just be said that is how the stage works. Out of the dozens of stages, 2 allow the player to wrap around the screen instead of being KOd, that's not "odd" that's how it is. King of Fighters Stadium has an invisible wall that needs enough speed to break through, that's not "odd" that's how it is. Mario Galaxy has curved gravity, that's not "odd" that's how it is. Wrecking Crew, WarioWare Inc., and Spiral Mountain do things that most stages don't do, but that is just how they are. Magicant's tomato and octopus statue can be stood on and also attacked to get rid of them or they will rid themselves over time, similar to Green Hill Zone's sections. | |||
::What's odd is Metal Mario's fast fall speed being slower than his normal fall speed in Smash 64. What's odd is Jeff not casting a shadow in Ultimate. What's odd is bouncy rubber causing things to bounce higher than they should. What's odd is Special Flags not appearing in Stamina Special Smashes. These don't make sense and likely shouldn't do what they do. Something decreasing a value by X per frame? Perfectly reasonable and logical, there's no weirdness going on. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 21:52, June 22, 2022 (EDT) | |||
:::Also, it's not like Green Hill Zone's ground breaking is original to Smash—that's what the level is and has been known for in the Sonic series. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: yellow;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: white; text-shadow: 0 0 2px black;">'''the</span> <span style="color: purple;">Nonbinary</span> <span style="color: black;">Rurouni'''</span>]] 09:58, June 23, 2022 (EDT) | |||
You guys are simply overthinking this. Breakable terrain usually works in a certain way. In this case it works in a different way. This is unusual behaviour, as it's not normal for terrain to destroy itself. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 10:03, June 23, 2022 (EDT) | |||
:Min Min doesn't have traditional specials, tilts, or aerials, Kazuya has attacks galore. There are stages with multiple planes, there are stages with fewer dimensions. There is terrain that can go away on a timer, there is terrain that can go away by taking damage, there is terrain that moves based on weight, there is terrain that takes damage from weight (Boxing Ring). So, how is it odd that terrain can be a little different? What is stopping terrain from having a timer and health? Add some params, add a function, simple. You are overthinking this by thinking that everything that is breakable terrain has to function the exact same way when Smash loves throwing in gimmicks that go counter to that idea. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 10:18, June 23, 2022 (EDT) | |||
==Wuhu Island== | |||
I asked on the talk page why isn’t wuhu island banned in competitive. Why can’t we use talk pages for that given that no one noted why the hazards off version is banned anyways? | |||
It’s something that can be noted in the article, not asking something like “who do you like the most in the fighters pass?” <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Gligar2007|Gligar2007]] ([[User talk:Gligar2007|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Gligar2007|contribs]]) 23:44, June 25, 2022 (EDT)</small> | |||
You should have made it clearer that your post was about expanding the article's content, because it was not immediately apparent. Anyway, Wuhu is banned because it has slopes that turn upwards at the edges and is a semisoft platform like Skyloft, not much else about it. And please [[SW:SIGN|fix your signature]]. [[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 05:25, June 26, 2022 (EDT) | |||
Wouldn’t anyone see that no one mentioned why hazards off is not in the article? <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Gligar2007|Gligar2007]] ([[User talk:Gligar2007|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Gligar2007|contribs]]) 09:01, June 26, 2022 (EDT)</small> | |||
== Edit warring == | |||
Given how often you edit war here and that you've already been warned on it before, you have been given more than enough chances. You can take the week off, and any farther edit warring from you will result in successively longer blocks. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 19:48, July 30, 2022 (EDT) | |||
:I assume this is over [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Shulk_(SSBU)/Dash_attack&curid=108469&diff=1713608&oldid=1713598 this]. This actually wasn't a 1RV violation (though I kinda figured it might be interpreted that way). Toomai misunderstood my edit. From his edit summary it was clear that he was unaware of the effect the arts have on the move, hence his reference to the aerials which would not be relevant to the issue. Per 1RV, a revert may be used if "a valid edit was misunderstood or misinterpreted by the reverter, though this should be accompanied by an explanation". Toomai was under the impression that the move's hitboxes were unaffected by the speed and shield arts, which is NOT true, hence my revert + explanation. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 19:58, July 30, 2022 (EDT) | |||
::"''This actually wasn't a 1RV violation (though I kinda figured it might be interpreted that way).''" | |||
::You double reverted, as you constantly do here, end of the story. Take it to the talk page next time like you know damn well to. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 20:03, July 30, 2022 (EDT) | |||
:::...I...just quoted you an exception that is clearly stated in 1RV...if you don't believe me, you can read it for yourself [[SW:WAR#Only revert once|here]]. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' | |||
::::There is no "misunderstanding" or "misinterpretation", you blatantly double reverted. If you're going to keep trying to wiki lawyer out of this, your talk page will be locked too. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 20:22, July 30, 2022 (EDT) | |||
:::::I'm not "wiki lawyering" anything. There are 6 exemptions to 1RV. My edit falls under exemption 3. You can't claim I violated a rule I didn't violate, and then when I point out that I didn't violate it, throw out further allegations against me. Can you please actually listen to what I'm saying this time? ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 20:25, July 30, 2022 (EDT) | |||
::::::I would agree with you Alex if it weren't for the fact that there is no incorrect information present by simply removing the image tag. Simply leave a note on Toomai's and/or the article's talk and wait for a response, no harm done. That said @OT I oppose a block here, too fragile a reason. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 20:28, July 30, 2022 (EDT) | |||
::::::Since SK left without correcting himself here, just going to post here that he retracted his position on discord, as he was initially under the impression that Alex only reverted Toomai and missed that he already reverted Drakroar prior. | |||
::::::@Alex: This attempt to wikilawyer has gone on enough, stop trying to misinterpret policies to absolve yourself and just use a damn talk page for once. Your talk page is being locked. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 21:04, July 30, 2022 (EDT) | |||
::::::The exception Alex is referring to here reads as follows: "If a valid edit was misunderstood or misinterpreted by the reverter, though this should be accompanied by an explanation." | |||
::::::Considering that there were two separate users reverting Alex here, neither of whom claim to have "misunderstood or misunterpreted" anything when removing the tag, this exception cannot be used to qualify multiple reversions. For the image tag itself, whether something is or isn't necessary is subjective and cannot be declared factually incorrect, and thus if there is a disagreement, the discussion is to go to the talk page. | |||
::::::Also I'll confirm real quick that I have in fact retracted my opposition of a block. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 13:10, July 31, 2022 (EDT) | |||
== [[Special:Diff/1716727|Your Lucario edit]] == | |||
I would like to point out the pages for both Aura Sphere and Extreme Speed have trivia points that mention quirks about them that are only present in ''Brawl'', yet neither of them are pointed out on Lucario's ''Brawl'' page. | |||
In my opinion, trivia that focuses on one of the fighter's special moves should be put on said move's page instead of the fighter's, regardless of whether or not said trivia is only relevant in one installment. Yes, the fighter is technically relevant to the trivia, but the move is clearly the main focus. | |||
Also, removing trivia better suited on other pages helps reduce the amount of bloat on a trivia section, which is the reason why we have a "trivia" tag in the first place. | |||
So overall, I don't think the trivia only being relevant in ''Ultimate'' should really matter that much when the page's subject (Lucario) isn't necessarily the main focus of said trivia. Hope I elaborated my points well enough. [[File:JacketTerraSig1.png|20px]]'''The [[User:The Jacketed Terrapin|<span style="color: blue;">Jacketed</span>]] [[User talk:The Jacketed Terrapin|<span style="color: green;">Terrapin</span>]]'''[[File:JacketTerraSig2.png|20px]] 13:15, August 10, 2022 (EDT) | |||
:Are you suggesting that a trivia point being about a special move specifically prohibits it from being on a character's article? While a trivia point about any other move would be included on said page? I see no reason why the trivia point can't go there, especially since that article's trivia section is so barren already. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 13:28, August 10, 2022 (EDT) | |||
::I would like to point out [[SW:TRIV]] states: | |||
:::"''Trivia must be on the right page. For instance, a minor glitch involving Aether belongs on Aether and not on Ike (SSBB) or Ike.''" | |||
::Since this trivia is Ultimate specific it probably doesn't matter much where it goes, but since the main point of the trivia is about Force Palm, my opinion is that it works better on the Force Palm page. Also I don't see a problem with a trivia section being barren, as those are the sections most prone to becoming filled with unnecessary bloat, furthermore I hardly see how 5 trivia points is "barren". [[File:Toad.png|20px]] '''[[User:Omega Toad|<font color="deepskyblue">Omega Toad,</font>]] [[User talk:Omega Toad|<font color="blue">the Toad Warrior.</font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Omega Toad|<font color="#7B5BEE">(I'm the best!)</font>]]''' 20:14, August 10, 2022 (EDT) | |||
:::I mean, arguably the main point is about the ''tip'', and how it's false. A false tip about a character seems like a good fit for the character's article to me. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 04:58, August 11, 2022 (EDT) | |||
::::Except the tip isn't about Lucario, it's about Force Palm. Case closed. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 12:52, August 11, 2022 (EDT) | |||
:::::It literally ''is'' though. It's about Lucario's aura, and its effect on one of Lucario's moves. Trivia about individual moves is listen on many character trivia pages. Why should this be any different? Or are you suggesting we remove every trivia point that's about one of the characters' moves, because it's "not about the character, it's about the move"? ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 13:05, August 11, 2022 (EDT) | |||
<small>(Reset indent) </small> The tip is literally labelled under "'''Force Palm Throws (Side Special)'''". I fail to see how that has more to do with Lucario than the move itself. Yes, it touches on aura, but that's because ''every attack in Lucario's moveset'' uses that effect. What are you not getting? I said case closed. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 13:10, August 11, 2022 (EDT) | |||
:Alright, calm down, there's no need to go Phoenix Wright on me... | |||
:It's a move LUCARIO uses. It's not just some move floating around in the game's code, it's one of LUCARIO's moves. So it absolutely is relevant to Lucario. How can you say it shouldn't be on Lucario's trivia section, when as I've already pointed out, we regularly note quirks with characters' moves on their trivia articles, such as a trivia point about Ike's cape during Aether being on his trivia section. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 13:17, August 11, 2022 (EDT) | |||
::The point isn't that Lucario uses the move, the point is that it is a move that happens to belong to Lucario. It is more relevant to the move than it is to Lucario. Again, what are you not getting? Are you about to suggest that the glitch about Lightning Chariot (you know, [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Lightning_Chariot&diff=prev&oldid=1196754 the one that you added]) should be moved to every stage it could be performed on because of the fact that the move was being used on the STAGE? | |||
::Also, while I did fail to respond to that comment in my initial response, given that (as quoted by Omega Toad) we have a policy in place stating that trivia should be placed accordingly, we should absolutely be putting factoids relevant to moves on the pages for the moves themselves rather than character pages. I won't suggest outright deleting them, trivia is trivia, but I ''will'' suggest moving them to the correct location. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 13:28, August 11, 2022 (EDT) | |||
:::That is not a valid analogy. Lightning Chariot does not belong to the individual stages, it belongs to Pit. But there would be nothing wrong putting it on Pit's article. Trivia about a character's move is still trivia about the character. What's wrong with putting these trivia points in a more visible location, so more people will see them, rather than dumping them on the less visited move pages? As an example, the Ike trivia I mentioned was recently featured in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5NDczPuXRQ this video], but only because it was placed in a visible location. Had it been relegated to the move page, it wouldn't have been seen in this case. I'd imagine this applies to a lot of people who read the trivia sections on character articles, but not necessarily on smaller, lower traffic articles. And if a trivia section isn't that big, such as in this case, that's all the more reason to welcome this kind of trivia onto them. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 13:35, August 11, 2022 (EDT) | |||
:::::"''Trivia about a character's move is still trivia about the character.''" | |||
::::'''No, it's not.''' If it's, by your own admission, "trivia about a character's move", then it's trivia about a character's move. | |||
:::::"''What's wrong with putting these trivia points in a more visible location, so more people will see them, rather than dumping them on the less visited move pages?''" | |||
::::If people want to learn more about a specific move, they will go to its page. There is a reason why we have short descriptions for moves on the character's pages, and more in-depth descriptions on the moves' pages. It doesn't matter if these pages are "less visited" (which, let's be real, is a completely irrelevant point to bring up on a vast encyclopedic website), we organize things by where they go to make it easier for people to read the wiki. | |||
:::::"''As an example, the Ike trivia I mentioned was recently featured in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5NDczPuXRQ this video], but only because it was placed in a visible location.''" | |||
::::I'm well aware, I saw the video. If it were on the Aether page and not Ike's page, it would have removed one talking point from the video and not changed a thing. (Also, nice of you to constantly bombard the guy with trivia to the point where he changed his format so that you weren't the star of the show every time.) | |||
:::::"''And if a trivia section isn't that big, such as in this case, that's all the more reason to welcome this kind of trivia onto them.''" | |||
::::Pages don't ''need'' an insane amount of trivia on them, though. There's no need to have 15+ different trivia points—sometimes there's nothing to note. No one's gonna force themselves to bloat up Diddy Kong's Ultimate page just because there's like 3 points on there. | |||
::::[[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 13:49, August 11, 2022 (EDT) | |||
:::::Trivia about a special move belongs on the move's article and nowhere else. It's not appropriate to put it on the character's article because there is a better place for it. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 13:52, August 11, 2022 (EDT) | |||
:::::<edit conflict>It's a case study, Aidan. The point isn't that this one video got made, the point is that where the trivia is placed obviously affects how many people will read it. I thought I'd explained that properly, but obviously I hadn't. I'll ignore that ad hominem. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 13:53, August 11, 2022 (EDT) | |||
::::::One last point. "If it's, by your own admission, "trivia about a character's move", then it's trivia about a character's move." is the equivalent of saying "if it's trivia about a character's idle animation, then it's trivia about a character's idle animation, not about the character". A character's moves are an extension of them. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 14:38, August 11, 2022 (EDT) | |||
:::::::I was saying that, if you were willing to still call it "trivia about a character's move" even after this whole discussion, then you're contradicting the very argument you set up to begin with. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 14:42, August 11, 2022 (EDT) | |||
:::::::Alex ffs, we don't have articles for idle animations (like for each one specifically), we do have articles for each special move. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 14:43, August 11, 2022 (EDT) | |||
::::::::You've missed my point, Serpent King. Saying that trivia about a character's moves isn't trivia about a character, because it's trivia about a character's moves, and not about the character themselves is flawed logic, because it can be used to argue that trivia about any aspect of a character is trivia about that aspect of the character, and not about the character itself. Pick any piece of trivia you deem to be valid, and I can use Aidan's own logic to "prove" it's not trivia about the character. | |||
::::::::Aidan, I'm referring to it as such to distinguish it from other trivia about characters. If I were to refer to it as simply "trivia about characters", things would be confusing, because I would be saying "trivia about characters is trivia about characters". This has nothing to do with contradicting anything. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 14:46, August 11, 2022 (EDT) | |||
:::::::::Actually you missed my point that trivia belongs in the most relevant place. Since there is no more relevant place for an idle animation than the character article, the trivia would belong there. Since there IS a more relevant place for trivia on special moves, the trivia belongs on those articles. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 14:49, August 11, 2022 (EDT) | |||
No, I didn't miss the point, because I wasn't responding to your point, I was responding to Aidan's. I've already disputed that just because a move has an article, trivia about it can't be put on a character's article. I don't need to repeat myself on that point. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 14:51, August 11, 2022 (EDT) | |||
:that is incorrect, we dont duplicate information unless it absolutely must exist in both locations like updates do. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 17:05, August 11, 2022 (EDT) | |||