Talk:Mewtwo (SSBU)

Discussion about Confusion's properties (and other moves)

Please try to keep it civil folks. Tantei (talk) 10:35, 26 June 2018 (EDT)

Normally I'd say that's not a proper use of the talk page, but I should probably make it clear to you: this was not directed at you, but instead the IP before you. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 10:38, 26 June 2018 (EDT)

I'm aware, and forgive me, I have limited experience with talk pages. I would just like to confirm if Mewtwo's Confusion actually has more end lag if whiffed is all. Tantei (talk) 10:49, 26 June 2018 (EDT)

Some of the information here was simply wrong ("Forward tilt has [...] quicker start-up and endlag.") or unverified information due to lack of proper testing ("Confusion now allows Mewtwo to act before captured opponents can, allowing for combos."), so i removed it. The same holds for "Confusion has more ending lag if it misses, making it more punishable", which i don't like as a listed nerf/change because it's not a change (as the title suggests) to Smash 4 because its FAF in Smash 4 is F41 on hit and F45 otherwise (which btw is still the same in Ultimate). You can count the frames for example here (00:42 and 02:00). Chrisler (talk) 10:58, 26 June 2018 (EDT)

Does Mewtwo have a scrapped boss form?

Anybody find it weird that Pikachu and Pokémon Trainer’s boss fight is against Mewtwo and then a Master hand? Something feels off, given how Mario, Zelda and Kirby got their own boss it feels off that Pokémon doesn’t, their idea of their unique fight is having a fighter followed by Mazter Hand.

Maybe it was supposed to be Mecha mewto or Mega X, maybe Gamefreak rejected an idea? Shawksta (talk) 18:33, 19 December 2018 (EST)

This is speculation mind you but it feels very weird Shawksta (talk) 18:35, 19 December 2018 (EST)

I honestly doubt it, since not all characters have special boss fights, and while Pokémon is a big franchise for Nintendo, that doesn't guarantee that it'll get its own boss. SugarCookie420 (talk) 18:36, 19 December 2018 (EST)

Yeah, I don't think so. Rayquaza from Brawl would have made a better boss. But I don't think this discussion is constructive for the article. SeanWheeler (talk) 13:22, 20 December 2018 (EST)

Where are the names of its normal moves coming from?

Are these just made up names or is there actually a source for these? --41.132.92.231 11:54, 27 February 2019 (EST)

If there is no credible source for those move names, I'll be removing them in a few days unless a source is provided. --41.132.92.231 07:34, 7 March 2019 (EST)

They are from the in-game tips. Same goes for other Ultimate character pages. Zyrac(talk•contribs) 09:59, 7 March 2019 (EST)

Adding SDX/Secret to historically significant players

I've been told that the reasons for him not being included are that he doesn't carry much historical relevance due to being early Ult and that 3 months isn't enough for historical relevance. I would argue that there's zero reason that there should be a specific amount of time needed for someone to play a character for it to be relevant, and if there is then 3 months is very much plenty. The new guidelines also state nothing about a specific amount of time playing the character being needed, only to wait 6 months after a character's release to give them the section to add relevant players in the first place. On him not carrying much relevance, I can see it argued, but I would be willing to bet anyone who played the game then would list Secret after Wadi if asked about Mewtwo players. He also has the best results with Mewtwo behind Wadi. I think that would easily make him more historically relevant than most of the current players listed. He also was Area 51 in the first season of Ultimate with solo Mewtwo (he may have entered things as Joker/PT during the period, but nothing really for PGR and all of his PGR wins were with Mewtwo). MereMortem (talk) 22:08, 04 October 2021 (EST)

I'll break down my thought process:

"I would argue that there's zero reason that there should be a specific amount of time needed for someone to play a character for it to be relevant, and if there is then 3 months is very much plenty"

The thing is, the first three months of the game is the early metagame, so results for players aside from the very best are often very volatile. There have been several instances of players who saw very good results in the early metagame, but would ultimately see inactivity or a drop in results. Is it possible that SDX could've pushed Mewtwo to insane heights if he stuck with the character? Possibly. But as it stands now, we don't have enough data to really collect how successful his Mewtwo could be in the long run.

"The new guidelines also state nothing about a specific amount of time playing the character being needed, only to wait 6 months after a character's release to give them the section to add relevant players in the first place."

While that is true, the name "most historically significant players" should indicate that players on this list should be notable enough to have a presence for a long period of time. Players shouldn't be added here simply because they managed to find a couple of solid performances for a brief period of time, or else we'd return to the state these sections were/had been in prior to the new guidelines, something that they were not intended to be. While Mewtwo does have a smaller userbase, that doesn't necessarily mean we need to fill those spots in with players who have used the character for a significantly less time; we're looking at results in the long run, 3 months is far from enough, especially when most people on the list have played the character for a longer than 3 months while staying rather consistent overall.

"but I would be willing to bet anyone who played the game then would list Secret after Wadi if asked about Mewtwo players."

SDX was a well-known Mewtwo player back in Smash 4, and was ultimately ranked on the PGR 100. Many people who watched Smash 4 would naturally remember and follow SDX's results in Ultimate. If you ask any player who started following Ultimate after Smash 4, the chance of them knowing who SDX are will decrease significantly, and would very likely stay like that unless he returns to the character.

"He also has the best results with Mewtwo behind Wadi."

This, again, can be attributed to the results taking place in the early metagame, where knowledge on how Mewtwo was as a character was much less than the knowledge on the character today.

"He also was Area 51 in the first season of Ultimate with solo Mewtwo"

The first PGRU had its fair share of problems, for example having a much bigger emphasis on outplacements and upsets than previous and future PGRs. As a result of that, we had a list with players such as Frozen, who really only saw one good result at Collision 2019 but had a notable victory over Tweek; and The Great Gonzales, who only showed up to 5 PGR tournaments and had a lot of unranked losses, but also had a notable win on Tweek. Come to the second PGRU, where the methodology was largely the same to the final few Smash 4 rankings: Leffen and Wrath, who both saw a win on Tweek, were only in Area 51 due to a general lack of PGR attendance and more unranked losses than ranked losses. Goblin, who had a Samsora win and 2 Tweek wins, was only 42nd due to his weak first half of the season and a slew of unranked losses. All of these players would've certainly be ranked or ranked higher if the season followed the first season's methodology. On the other hand, SDX, who had an equal amount of unranked losses to ranked losses and who only attended 3 tournaments, would've definitely not been ranked on the second season.

Also, just because a player is ranked for the first season doesn't automatically guarantee historically notability. Does anyone remember Cacogen, Angel Cortes, or Megafox? They were 3 players ranked on the first ever PGR, which covered more than a year of competitive Smash 4. Yet, most people don't usually think about them when they think about their respective characters since they either dropped off or stopped attending majors after the first season.

I should point out that these are my opinions, and it's possible that there are people like you who disagree. However as it stands, there are a few other editors who also don't agree with adding SDX to the page, as opposed to 1 that agrees, which is why he's not on here. CookiesCreme 23:17, October 4, 2021 (EDT)

Even if he only did anything with the character during the early volatile metagame of Ultimate, he was responsible for carrying Mewtwo in that early metagame and the transition to Ultimate where no one else was. Even if it wasn't for a long time, given how little Mewtwo has done since outside of Wadi, I would argue that's significant in Mewtwo's history, especially given that they have a smaller playerbase and representation. How his Mewtwo could have done in the future is up in the air if he kept going, but whether he would've continued to do well or fallen off doesn't affect him carrying the character while he played him. Mewtwo having a smaller playerbase just makes him doing what he did more significant if you ask me, not the same or less to characters with much bigger playerbases, such as those 3 you listed who were on the first PGR of Smash 4. Sheik, Diddy, and Fox were all top tiers with a lot of players, so there was more players to think of who would have more historical significance. Mewtwo having a smaller playerbase means that what Secret did is that much MORE significant and more likely for people to remember imo. Smash 4 is also a game that has run its full lifespan and has a game after it. People on the first iteration of its PGR are going to be much more forgotten, especially if you're asking Ultimate players about someone who hasn't done anything even in the early metagame of Ultimate.

Obviously those are your opinions and these are mine, so no worries; I know we're all entitled to our opinions. I wanted to bring it up in discussion because I truly believe he should be here, but if people don't agree with me, then that's the way of the road. MereMortem (talk) 01:20, 05 October 2021 (EST)