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Forum:Tier list debate 2020: Part 1: Difference between revisions
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Historically, SmashWiki was part of SmashBoards, and SmashBoards was the unchallenged hub for all Smash Bros. discussion and research. As a result, we only recognized tier lists produced by the SmashBoards backrooms, as they were accepted by the entire community as being the most accurate and trustworthy. | Historically, SmashWiki was part of SmashBoards, and SmashBoards was the unchallenged hub for all Smash Bros. discussion and research. As a result, we only recognized tier lists produced by the SmashBoards backrooms, as they were accepted by the entire community as being the most accurate and trustworthy. | ||
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There is no "status quo" or "other" option. Make your stand. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Brass 19:54, January 30, 2020 (EST) | There is no "status quo" or "other" option. Make your stand. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Brass 19:54, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
===Option 1: Hands-off=== | ===Option 1: Hands-off=== | ||
#'''Support.''' Tier lists are extremely opinionated, and there is no definitive answer. The best idea is probably to let people decide for themselves. Of course there are people out there with different tier opinions than ours. We could just let the people go to the Smash player they trust or like most, and let them decide on their own, using the bias from someone else. [[User:SpiritSobble]] | |||
#'''Support.''' Unless an official tier list that the majority agrees upon is released, it's better to keep tier placements general. This allows the best accuracy as tiers other than the top tier are often immensely different from one opinion to the next, especially with a roster as big as ''Ultimate''. [[User:Zeckemyro|Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck]] ([[User talk:Zeckemyro|talk]]) 20:02, January 30, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support.''' Unless an official tier list that the majority agrees upon is released, it's better to keep tier placements general. This allows the best accuracy as tiers other than the top tier are often immensely different from one opinion to the next, especially with a roster as big as ''Ultimate''. [[User:Zeckemyro|Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck]] ([[User talk:Zeckemyro|talk]]) 20:02, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support'''. Ultimately, outside of extreme cases such as MK in Brawl, there is no such thing as an objective placement for a character on a tier list. All tier lists are opinions, and a factual wiki is not the place for opinions. <s>I wouldn't be completely against option 3, since it's at least a bit more fair than treating any specific tier list as "official" (which is in hindsight kind of a stupid thing to do), but</s> I think our best option is to simply provide information about how the community generally views the strengths and weaknesses of each character, rather than outright stating that this character ranks at this specific position. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 20:06, January 30, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support'''. Ultimately, outside of extreme cases such as MK in Brawl, there is no such thing as an objective placement for a character on a tier list. All tier lists are opinions, and a factual wiki is not the place for opinions. <s>I wouldn't be completely against option 3, since it's at least a bit more fair than treating any specific tier list as "official" (which is in hindsight kind of a stupid thing to do), but</s> I think our best option is to simply provide information about how the community generally views the strengths and weaknesses of each character, rather than outright stating that this character ranks at this specific position. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 20:06, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
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#'''Support''' I think specific numbered tier placements are sort of outdated nowadays, and I think keeping the old ones for historical purposes is a good option either way. [[User:Awesomelink234|<span style="font-size:10pt;background:#00FF20;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px;color:#050DF7">Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Gamer</span>]] [[User talk:Awesomelink234|Leave a message if needed]] 07:37, January 31, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support''' I think specific numbered tier placements are sort of outdated nowadays, and I think keeping the old ones for historical purposes is a good option either way. [[User:Awesomelink234|<span style="font-size:10pt;background:#00FF20;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px;color:#050DF7">Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Gamer</span>]] [[User talk:Awesomelink234|Leave a message if needed]] 07:37, January 31, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support''': More general statements like "this character is generally considered to be mid tier" are better suited for a wiki that strives to be neutral. Option 3 is interesting, but it poses a problem in that the continuous updates, and various other metagame developments, continuously call in question the ordered placements within a tier, especially within the lower ones. I think that if we want to pursue option 3 we have to do it only after Ultimate has stopped to receive updates for good, so for now it's better to just stick with option 1. --[[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 05:32, February 1, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support''': More general statements like "this character is generally considered to be mid tier" are better suited for a wiki that strives to be neutral. Option 3 is interesting, but it poses a problem in that the continuous updates, and various other metagame developments, continuously call in question the ordered placements within a tier, especially within the lower ones. I think that if we want to pursue option 3 we have to do it only after Ultimate has stopped to receive updates for good, so for now it's better to just stick with option 1. --[[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 05:32, February 1, 2020 (EST) | ||
#As per my comment I '''support''' going hands-off. <span style="font-family: Algerian">'''[[User:supatoad64|<span style="color:green;">Supα</span>]][[User talk:supatoad64|<span style="color:red;">Toαd</span><span style="color:blue;">64</span>]]'''</span> [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] 09:13, February 1, 2020 (EST) | #<s>As per my comment I '''support''' going hands-off. <span style="font-family: Algerian">'''[[User:supatoad64|<span style="color:green;">Supα</span>]][[User talk:supatoad64|<span style="color:red;">Toαd</span><span style="color:blue;">64</span>]]'''</span> [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] 09:13, February 1, 2020 (EST)</s> | ||
#'''Support''': Due to the reasons mentioned, at least until (if) a back room is ever convened for a future tier list. Option 2 would be highly prone to bias and Option 3 would have the same problem in addition to taking more time and effort to aggregate. Until there's a clear and obvious alternative we should avoid giving exact tier placements with obvious exceptions like Brawl MK. [[User:Antimony|Antimony]] ([[User talk:Antimony|talk]]) 13:49, February 2, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support''': Due to the reasons mentioned, at least until (if) a back room is ever convened for a future tier list. Option 2 would be highly prone to bias and Option 3 would have the same problem in addition to taking more time and effort to aggregate. Until there's a clear and obvious alternative we should avoid giving exact tier placements with obvious exceptions like Brawl MK. [[User:Antimony|Antimony]] ([[User talk:Antimony|talk]]) 13:49, February 2, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support''': I feel this is the best option simply because aggregating a tier list from "trustworthy sources" introduces a plethora of problems. For example who would qualify as "trustworthy" and how do we avoid appearing biased? If we're talking tier lists from notable players, they tend to update those very often and often times find themselves not numerically organizing lower tier characters? Does that mean we should avoid numerically ranking characters and simply stick to a letter categorization format? Then comes the question of if there's even enough tier lists to create an aggregate tier list without seeming too one-sided. In the end, there are just too many factors to consider and a lot of maintenance would be required. Maintenance after every patch would likely not be fast enough to keep up with ever-changing opinions. [[User:Pokebub|Pokebub]] ([[User talk:Pokebub|talk]]) 21:13, February 2, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support''': I feel this is the best option simply because aggregating a tier list from "trustworthy sources" introduces a plethora of problems. For example who would qualify as "trustworthy" and how do we avoid appearing biased? If we're talking tier lists from notable players, they tend to update those very often and often times find themselves not numerically organizing lower tier characters? Does that mean we should avoid numerically ranking characters and simply stick to a letter categorization format? Then comes the question of if there's even enough tier lists to create an aggregate tier list without seeming too one-sided. In the end, there are just too many factors to consider and a lot of maintenance would be required. Maintenance after every patch would likely not be fast enough to keep up with ever-changing opinions. [[User:Pokebub|Pokebub]] ([[User talk:Pokebub|talk]]) 21:13, February 2, 2020 (EST) | ||
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#'''Support''': We talk about not using subjective terms, such as best, worst, and the like. Tier Lists are the epitome of subjective. <span style="font-family: SimHei;color: orange;background-color: green;">[[User:LegendEH|LegendEH Is Very]] [[User talk:LegendEH|Handsome]]~</span> 10:52, February 14, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support''': We talk about not using subjective terms, such as best, worst, and the like. Tier Lists are the epitome of subjective. <span style="font-family: SimHei;color: orange;background-color: green;">[[User:LegendEH|LegendEH Is Very]] [[User talk:LegendEH|Handsome]]~</span> 10:52, February 14, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support''': Definitely keep the existing tier lists and matchup charts for historical purposes; no sense in deleting them. But yeah... it's unfortunate, but I don't see any way to get around this. I don't think there's any comparable "official" source to make Option 2 workable. As for Option 3... hoo boy. Not only do you need some way of determining which tier lists to include, you also need some way of aggregating them! And like, uh... Arrow's Theorem, anyone? (At least we don't have to worry about the equivalent of strategic voting here. :P ) Not that you can't come up with a way (I know average placement is often used), but no way anyone comes up with will be, like, the one correct natural way, so... yeah. Probably just best to leave this to others... [[User:Sniffnoy|Sniffnoy]] ([[User talk:Sniffnoy|talk]]) 03:28, February 21, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support''': Definitely keep the existing tier lists and matchup charts for historical purposes; no sense in deleting them. But yeah... it's unfortunate, but I don't see any way to get around this. I don't think there's any comparable "official" source to make Option 2 workable. As for Option 3... hoo boy. Not only do you need some way of determining which tier lists to include, you also need some way of aggregating them! And like, uh... Arrow's Theorem, anyone? (At least we don't have to worry about the equivalent of strategic voting here. :P ) Not that you can't come up with a way (I know average placement is often used), but no way anyone comes up with will be, like, the one correct natural way, so... yeah. Probably just best to leave this to others... [[User:Sniffnoy|Sniffnoy]] ([[User talk:Sniffnoy|talk]]) 03:28, February 21, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support''': I have to agree, Nintendo's updates have killed the potential of a tier list. The added bonus of tier lists being extremely subjective, and you have tier lists that not many would want to set their eyes upon. I feel like a more appropriate list would be to rank usage of certain fighters and their win-loss ratio, like how many Melee Fox mains have won with their specific character, but that's a lot of work. Similarly, aggregating every tier list might be time-consuming on the basis that we have to consider what sources we pull in to make each tier lists, and we can't go around town to see if there's another tier list we can manage. Feels like the idea of a tier list is dead for now. I want to keep it that way, because it means we don't see the community preferring to main a specific fighter because he's high tier and they can't fight jackshit whenever they go to tourney. I'm interested for diversity when it comes to what fighter is picked at a tourney, instead of just high-tier non-stop (though the Melee side will sadly deal with 'Fox only' shenanigans for a long time; that game's never getting updated). -- [[File:PolipedeScorbunnySmashIcon.png|23px|link=]] [[User:Scorbunny|Scorbunny]] ([[User talk:Scorbunny|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Scorbunny|contributions]]) 16:14, February 29, 2020 (EST) | |||
#'''Support''': I'm torn between this and the third option, but I'm slightly edging towards this one. While I do think it's a good idea to continue documenting characters' strengths and weaknesses as well as what is the general consensus of how good they are, explicit tier lists have always only ever been argument fodder - not only with the precise placement of characters but in terms of whose list is taken as (the most) valid and how egos have historically played into that; as aside, this is one of the reasons why I have ''never'' been okay with people seeing SmashBoards and particularly the reclusive Back Room(s) as the sole authority on Smash, so the notion that things are becoming decentralized (which is news to me, honestly) is the exact opposite of what I'd call a "depressing reality". What I'd recommend instead of tier placement on the game and character pages themselves is a collection of links to popular tier lists on each game's ''competitive'' page, as a means of quick reference and comparison for people explicitly looking for competitive info. Admittedly, this ties into my long-running wish for the wiki to become a more general informational resource like other NIWA wikis with all the competitive/community material cordoned off into its own hub or sub-wiki, but that debate on the whole is outside the scope of this discussion. On this topic in particular, my vote is for the wiki to be largely hands-off but to point players interested in that kind of info in the right direction rather than just leave them hanging. [[Image:VinSymbol.png|16px|link=User:VinLAURiA]][[User:VinLAURiA|VinLAURiA]] ([[User talk:VinLAURiA|talk]]) 12:28, April 1, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support''': Yeah, with the exception of extremities like ''Brawl'' Meta Knight and ''Smash 4'' Bayonetta, it isn't exactly a good idea to claim that, for example, {{SSBM|Mr. Game & Watch}} in ''Melee'' is ranked 20th out of 26 (as opposed to 21st, 19th, or 22nd, which have all been his ranking on official SmashBoards tier lists of the past)—the best we can really go for is to say that he's a low-tier character that probably isn't tournament-viable. Not everyone even agrees that {{SSBM|Fox}} is 1st out of 26 in ''Melee''. Option 3 may or may not also be able to work, but deciding on exactly how to average them can be a hard task on its own. A similar thing mostly applies to matchups: there are a select few that are undisputably in one side's favor (such as Sheik against Bowser in ''Melee''), but otherwise, we can't really say much about them (except that high-tiers generally have favorable matchups over low-tiers). Plainly we should at least keep historical tier lists and matchup charts, though, but plainly we should also mark them as being historical and therefore potentially out of date. --[[User:Volleo6144|Volleo6144]] ([[User talk:Volleo6144|talk]]) 18:09, April 5, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support with some doubts''': I think one of the safest ones and would cause least controversies for wiki. Option 3 assumes voting, and its unreliable. [https://twitter.com/Jaaahsh/status/1229812803852173313 PGRU voting tier list] is an example. Averegly, {{SSBU|Palutena}} got the best result, so she's the best character in the game? And that's my biggest problem with Option 3, altrought it would be much smaller if we use Clarniet Hawk's way. Option 2 has, as stated by Toomai already, painful to aquire trustful and probably notable source and it's the worst one in my opinion. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:46.229.158.109|46.229.158.109]] ([[User talk:46.229.158.109|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/46.229.158.109|contribs]]) 02:37, April 10, 2020 (EDT)</small> | |||
#'''Support'''. Tier lists are just a matter of opinion, and instaed of trying to classify every single character, keeping it general is overall (maybe) more convenient(apart from exceptions like ''Brawl's'' Meta Knight and ''SSB4's'' Bayonetta). [[User:Weegeegaming|'''<span style="color: green;">Weegeegaming</span>''']]|[[User talk:Weegeegaming|'''''<span style="color: red;">talk</span>''''']] 09:50, April 10, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support''' Look, I make tier lists myself and I always use my opinion on how viable a character's placement is in every spot. Tier lists are basically opinion based on how some top players make a well-desinged tier list based on their opinion. And that is why I chose hands-off. [[User:S3AHAWK|S3AHAWK]] ([[User talk:S3AHAWK|talk]]) 03:25, April 18, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support''' Tier lists are entirely opinionated as is; everything else I want to say has already been covered. '''Your Senpai,''' [[User:Iron Warrior|<span style="color: red;">'''Iron'''</span>]] [[User talk:Iron Warrior|<span style="color: cyan;">'''Warrior'''</span>]] 17:45, May 19, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support''' I agree with the points made in the summary earlier on this page. They are opinions and can vary over time, and between players, version updates, and even depending on how the game is played (competitive, casual, with or without items, and many other vague terms). I like that general terms like "high tier" would stay, as noting a characters many or few strengths is more objective without claiming to be precise when relative to other characters. Instead of S-F tier lists, maybe it should be "strong/neutral/weak" lists that are little more generalised, simply noting their balance of strengths and weaknesses - or maybe forego the tier concept entirely and let people compare characters themselves after reading about their qualities. [[User:Pallukun|Pallukun]] ([[User talk:Pallukun|talk]]) 16:23, June 28, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support''' After the release of version 8.0 in ''Ultimate'', it doesn't seem like Nintendo is planning on making any drastic gameplay changes in the future. Games like ''Melee'' and ''Smash 4'' have characters who created the metagame in their respective titles, having characters fair better than others. In ''Ultimate'', every character seems capable in any match-up, including characters who are considered to be "medium low-tier". [https://smash.gg/rankings/super-smash-bros-ultimate/series/panda-global-rankings-ultimate/fall-2019 PGRU] has proven to be arbitrary with the results conducting characters tiers and is more focused on the players tournament placement. [[User:JRaH|JRaH]] ([[User talk:JRaH|talk]]) 13:19, June 30, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support''' Given the large number of characters and continual rebalancing, any opinion-based tier list (which all of them are at the moment) is going to have significant flaws. Tier lists are increasingly a very poor measure of viability for Smash. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:69.255.29.233|69.255.29.233]] ([[User talk:69.255.29.233|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/69.255.29.233|contribs]]) 15:11, July 2, 2020 (EDT)</small> | |||
# '''support.''' I do not really care about tier lists. They are just biased opinions and debates on how many Marths exist. So how about we rest on our laurels and wait until Smash brothers is getting old and frail before we do anything about tier lists. I have spoken. [[User:JustSomeCloudMain|JustSomeCloudMain who ain't interested]] ([[User talk:JustSomeCloudMain|talk]]) 11:44, July 30, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support''' Everyone has their favorite characters and hates them, so a tier list would disrupt everything. --[[User:CyberNat2000|CyberNat2000]] ([[User talk:CyberNat2000|talk]]) 12:17, August 11, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support.''' Not really sure why just seems like the best option in my opinion [[User:AW MAN 5|AW MAN 5]] ([[User talk:AW MAN 5|talk]]) 13:49, September 6, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support'''. It is true that the competitive scene is a very large part of the Smash community as a whole, and it should be noted which characters are most popular for tournaments, and which of them generally perform best. But treating one tier list as objective fact isn't right--even if it might be the most popular tier list and hailed as most accurate, popular opinion is still opinion. Option 3 is good on paper, but it also looks to be very difficult to manage, could lead to debate over which tier lists to aggregate, and, well, it's still opinion. Yes, we should note a character's strengths and weaknesses, and yes, we should note a character's performance in competitive tournaments. But that's where fact ends and opinions begin. -[[User:YoshiFlutterJump|YFJ]] ([[User talk:YoshiFlutterJump|talk]] · [[Special:Contribs/YoshiFlutterJump|edits]]) 01:30, September 18, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support'''. Tier lists are just opinions. Opinions don't have a place on an encyclopedic wiki. [[Special:Editcount/PinkYoshiFan|---]][[User:PinkYoshiFan|Pink]][[User talk:PinkYoshiFan|Yoshi]][[Special:Contributions/PinkYoshiFan|Fan]] 18:45, September 18, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support''' I've never believed the belief that it is the existence of tier lists that draw people to this wiki nor helps them make well informed choices for how to play (which is dumb anyway, anyone will either play the same 10-ish characters as everyone else to show off their life dedication to only winning or will play for fun with whoever they enjoy.). Don't make tier lists, period. If anything, have a page that shows tournament matchups within a major update period, with a running total for all matchups over time to see who appears to do best against who among tournamenters. This could also help show which characters are "top tier" due to just high usage as well as which are "bottom tier" due to mere lack of popular use in tournament play. [[User:Jarie Suicune|Jarie Suicune]] ([[User talk:Jarie Suicune|talk]]) 22:58, October 11, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support'''. Tier lists are opinions, and opinions do not belong on a wiki. They never should have been here in the first place. [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 22:04, October 23, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support'''. As above, tier lists are opinions, and an agrregation of opinions, even may be closer to objective truth, is still an opinion. You can never vote for the invalidation of a scientific fact and really forfeit it, anyway. [[User:Benzene114]] | |||
#'''Support?''' I agree with SpiritSobble, because I think that most people will be biased on their own or favorite players' opinion. But if we remove them, some people that want other opinions, as said in the description for option one, may be unhappy that we don't have tier lists, and that they may not think that this is a good wiki to get that information from, even though a tier list is not a fact, it is simply opinion. Please correct me if I'm wrong in any way, since I am still new to the wiki, and I know little about how this works. '''It's ya boi, [[User:KirboBoi64|KirboBoi]].''' ''[[User talk:KirboBoi64|<span style="color: #FDB0D4">Poyo</span>]]''. [[File:StarSign.png|16px]] 14:38, December 18, 2020 (EST) | |||
#'''Support'''. Never liked tier lists. Everyone has their own feelings on characters, and every character can be good. [[User:KirbysCrazyAppetite|Kirby's Crazy Appetite]] ~ [[File:KirbysCrazyAppetiteSig.png|50x20px]] 01:51, December 29, 2020 (EST) | |||
#'''Support'''. Boy, would I be shocked to hear myself say this back in July, but honestly, heck the entire concept of "tiers." Please, just dump any mention of "high-tier" or "low-tier" or what have you, and leave it at that. Tier lists stink so much for so many reasons, most already mentioned above. Although, that's not to say competitive reception of a fighter is to be completely ignored. Obviously we'd still have sections going over the general opinion and how the fighter has fared competitively. I know many people come here for that, and I fully oppose removing competitive reception altogether. But, it's just, the very ''concept'' of the "tier list" screams "fact" in my eyes. This is what bugged me when I voted for option 3 back in July, and while I wouldn't be completely opposed to that option nowadays, as I've gotten more familiar with the ''Smash'' community I've felt more and more strongly that drawing the line between "fact" and "opinion" is very, very important, and for some reason, tier lists really seem to blur that line when they put a fighter in a particular spot. Wouldn't you agree? Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''Banjo-'''</span><span style="color: #FF1901">'''Kazooie'''</span>]] Boss. [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 00:21, January 1, 2021 (EST) | |||
#'''Support.''' - I was considering option 2, but i realized that tier lists don't really have an exact spot. Also, this way, people don't just go to the tier list and automatically choose the character in the #1 slot. We should keep Brawl Meta Knight in his own tier though. [[user:BIG BUSTER|BIG BUSTER]] | |||
#'''Support'''. After revising this, I feel cramped from choosing option 3. It isn't exactly on how choosing a tier just changes a thing, it's just the way opinions are made. Obviously, since character pages like Smash Ultimate in competitive play have been saying tiers like a top; high; mid; or low tier. This makes an impact on what professional players are making tiers, there are opinions on how most professional players overrating Sonic and placing him in top tier, while {{Sm|ESAM}} underrating Sonic into upper mid. The effect on an opinion changing into a fact is very ''subtle'' and what this change isn't the fact it just a tier list that makes it a fact, but rather confusion and questions on players that they see the tier list as needing or suggesting. This is why matchup charts and tier lists in the wiki are just out of date, it's too weird to think one character is better overall, just because that the tier list is literally made in 2015, while the current meta finds that character worse overall. Matchups also have an effect like a tier list, similar to how a character has a disadvantage in (year), and now meta is now even. This obviously understand not only these facts are outdated and each fact like tier letters (s, a, b, c, etc.), tier lists, matchups, and outdated tiers make an appearance, but rather a thing overall that needs to be fixed and opinions are greater than facts as these tier lists and meta changes overall. The word ''Appearance'' is literally a noun, and what does this noun have, the appearance of what a change can have, appearance in smash (especially in smash ultimate) has lots of things that can change the whole meta, updates from buffs and nerfs on characters, player base on each character, characters win in super or major tournaments, new DLC character that can affect the matchups, etc. A thing is a noun and almost every single thing altogether makes a sudden change into Smash Ultimate overall and the Smash community altogether. [[User:Howplayz|<span style="font-family: Caveat;color:Blue;">''How''</span>]][[User talk:Howplayz|<span style="font-family: Caveat;color:Blue;">playz</span>'']] 00:57, January 1, 2021 (EST) | |||
#'''Support'''. - With the ever changing meta of Smash Ultimate, I think the other choices outside of options 1 aren't the safest to do in my honest opinion. I honestly don't care too much about tierlists outside of discussion but there is a lot of misinformation that gets spread around so it's best not to act so soon on making a tierlist at least, we do not need one, Ultimate is a very different smash game. I feel like this time a tierlist would invaidate the opinions of others much more so than ever before. It has already lead to controversy and confusion many times so I would advise again it which is why I am in support of option 1. I see it as the best option with how people have been using bait tierlists and the like and disucssion is less common among these bigger tierlists or the discussion is not constructive.[[User talk:CutterX3|<span style= "color: #1C63FF">'''CutterX3''']] 23:50, January 26, 2021 (ICT) | |||
===Option 2: New source=== | ===Option 2: New source=== | ||
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# '''Support'''. I feel that a new source would be easier than both other options. Option 1 seems to have way too much subjectivity that would make the platform too easy to discredit. Option 3 would be highly subjective and take quite a bit of work that I don't believe SmashWiki will always be able to afford. It doesn't appear sustainable. In terms of what source to use, I feel that one that uses a mix of empirical and general analysis would be best: usage for effect on the metagame, general perceived matchup spread, results, character and overall metagames, and more. While this would likely be difficult to find, I believe that this is one of the best approaches to take without causing some weird outcry that the Smash Community likes to do. --[[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]] 20:07, January 30, 2020 (EST) | # '''Support'''. I feel that a new source would be easier than both other options. Option 1 seems to have way too much subjectivity that would make the platform too easy to discredit. Option 3 would be highly subjective and take quite a bit of work that I don't believe SmashWiki will always be able to afford. It doesn't appear sustainable. In terms of what source to use, I feel that one that uses a mix of empirical and general analysis would be best: usage for effect on the metagame, general perceived matchup spread, results, character and overall metagames, and more. While this would likely be difficult to find, I believe that this is one of the best approaches to take without causing some weird outcry that the Smash Community likes to do. --[[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]] 20:07, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support''' for the same reasons as Plague von Karma. [[User:Aykrivwassup|Aykrivwassup]] ([[User talk:Aykrivwassup|talk]]) 21:43, January 30, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support''' for the same reasons as Plague von Karma. [[User:Aykrivwassup|Aykrivwassup]] ([[User talk:Aykrivwassup|talk]]) 21:43, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support''' I | #'''Support''' Ryobeat is currently conducting a survey of the MPGR top 100 to create a new tier list (https://twitter.com/RyobeatPeach/status/1232121227088736256). If this gets a good response rate it will likely be accepted by the community as the main tier list. This seems like a much more realistic solution than attempting to aggregate all the tier lists ourselves. [[User:Jaydyn|Jaydyn]] ([[User talk:Jaydyn|talk]]) 16:20, February 25, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support'''. There's probably going to be a new reliable tier list of some sort in the foreseeable future. [[User:Zakawer2|Zakawer2]] ([[User talk:Zakawer2|talk]]) 12:37, February 28, 2020 (EST) | |||
#'''Support''' You see the top player tier list from PG? Yeah, that. [[User:Pepdog2|Pepdog2]] ([[User talk:Pepdog2|talk]]) 00:42, March 7, 2020 (EST) | |||
#'''Support'''. As with the above vote, I would like to use the character tier list from Panda Global as our official tier list. It was essentially conducted in the same manner as a SmashBoards tier list with over 30 PGR players offering an opinion, so to me it feels like the direct successor to the SmashBoards tier lists of old. It doesn't even conflict with the wiki's approach that much, as we already deem the PGR to be 'official', so their tier list is a logical step. Complimenting this, I would like to retain the SmashBoards tier lists for all previous games leading into Ultimate. Realistically we can't ask anybody to accurately create new tier lists for old games. Even if the vote favours a different option, I still believe we should retain SmashBoards tiers for the first four games. [[User:ToastUltimatum|<font color="darkorange">Toast</font>]] [[File:Wii U Logo Transparent.png|17px|link=Special:Contributions/ToastUltimatum]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|<font color="seablue">'''ltimatum'''</font>]][[File:Transparent Swadloon.png|26px]] 07:52, March 25, 2020 (EDT) | |||
# '''Support''': I think maintaining tier lists helps new players a lot. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:78.34.65.94|78.34.65.94]] ([[User talk:78.34.65.94|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/78.34.65.94|contribs]]) 08:35, April 7, 2020</small> | |||
#'''Support.''' I would just like to point out that we sort-of already ''do'' rely on a new source; the most recent ''SSB64'' and ''Melee'' tier lists are, as noted, as a result of fan votes and feedback. Additionally, the first ''SSB64'' tier list was provided by GameFaqs. As for ''Ultimate'', I guess [[:Image:SSBU Tier List.jpg|this tier list]] that was briefly added to the article could work. <span style="font-family:Mario Party 2/3 Textbox">[[User:RickTommy|<span style="color:red">Rick</span>]][[User talk:RickTommy|<span style="color:green">Tommy</span>]]</span> 22:16, June 15, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support only if we can truly find a good source.''' If we can't find a good trustworthy source then option 1. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:AW MAN 5|AW MAN 5]] ([[User talk:AW MAN 5|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/AW MAN 5|contribs]]) 13:51, September 6, 2020 (EDT)</small> | |||
===Option 3: Aggregate=== | ===Option 3: Aggregate=== | ||
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#'''Support''' for basically the same reasons as Voqéo. Tier lists will always be fought over and have multiple thoughts on the matter, so it's best we factor together multiple sources instead of depending on a single one. That way we may be able to achieve the most accuracy possible. Only concern I have is how exactly this WILL be done. It's easy to say there will be a way to combine tier lists, but execution is always harder than ideas. [[User:Crazy456Rhino|Crazy456Rhino]] ([[User talk:Crazy456Rhino|talk]]) 20:10, January 30, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support''' for basically the same reasons as Voqéo. Tier lists will always be fought over and have multiple thoughts on the matter, so it's best we factor together multiple sources instead of depending on a single one. That way we may be able to achieve the most accuracy possible. Only concern I have is how exactly this WILL be done. It's easy to say there will be a way to combine tier lists, but execution is always harder than ideas. [[User:Crazy456Rhino|Crazy456Rhino]] ([[User talk:Crazy456Rhino|talk]]) 20:10, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support''': I generally think that aggregated tier lists is a good idea. On one hand, you'll have the opinions coming from the best players in the world, and all of these opinions combined would make for a solid substitute for the Backrooms. While we might have the occasional Samsora with "King K Rool is Top 15", if we opinions from enough top players, it'll balance itself out in the end. [[User:Wizardgeno|Wizardgeno]] ([[User talk:Wizardgeno|talk]]) 20:32, January 30, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support''': I generally think that aggregated tier lists is a good idea. On one hand, you'll have the opinions coming from the best players in the world, and all of these opinions combined would make for a solid substitute for the Backrooms. While we might have the occasional Samsora with "King K Rool is Top 15", if we opinions from enough top players, it'll balance itself out in the end. [[User:Wizardgeno|Wizardgeno]] ([[User talk:Wizardgeno|talk]]) 20:32, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support''' Top players make tier lists every day, combining them and listing them with there update number seems to be a great way to get a general overview of tiers. Just dont use sites like Eventhubs. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:CR4VE|CR4VE]] ([[User talk:CR4VE|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CR4VE|contribs]]) 20:39, January 30, | #'''Support''' Top players make tier lists every day, combining them and listing them with there update number seems to be a great way to get a general overview of tiers. Just dont use sites like Eventhubs. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:CR4VE|CR4VE]] ([[User talk:CR4VE|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CR4VE|contribs]]) 20:39, January 30, 2020</small> | ||
#'''Support'''. [[User:KungFuLakitu|KungFuLakitu]], [[User talk:KungFuLakitu|Spiny Overlord]] 20:45, January 30, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support'''. [[User:KungFuLakitu|KungFuLakitu]], [[User talk:KungFuLakitu|Spiny Overlord]] 20:45, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support''' - Aggregating tier rankings from various trusted sources seems like the best option to go with. Option 1 doesn't sound encyclopedic to me, and at the moment i don't think there is any single widely accepted tier list that we could use for option 2.- [[User:Searingjet|Searingjet]] ([[User talk:Searingjet|talk]]) 20:57, January 30, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support''' - Aggregating tier rankings from various trusted sources seems like the best option to go with. Option 1 doesn't sound encyclopedic to me, and at the moment i don't think there is any single widely accepted tier list that we could use for option 2.- [[User:Searingjet|Searingjet]] ([[User talk:Searingjet|talk]]) 20:57, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
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#'''Support'''. I think data is the most important thing in a tier list. I dont support gathering tier lists because they have a lot of bias. A person who hates playing against Jokers could easily put him in a lower tier. However, I think the tier lists should go by data such as results and matchups. I know a few Discords like Mac Nation could help with data such as matchups. [[User:Birdygamer1122|Birdygamer1122]] ([[User talk:Birdygamer1122|talk]]) 9:28, February 22, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support'''. I think data is the most important thing in a tier list. I dont support gathering tier lists because they have a lot of bias. A person who hates playing against Jokers could easily put him in a lower tier. However, I think the tier lists should go by data such as results and matchups. I know a few Discords like Mac Nation could help with data such as matchups. [[User:Birdygamer1122|Birdygamer1122]] ([[User talk:Birdygamer1122|talk]]) 9:28, February 22, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support''': This is our best option going forward as it provides readers with immediate, concrete information about the current metagame based on a variety of sources, and we can always note which characters have the highest deviation in placement between sources. It will take a bit more work than the other two options, for sure, but there are two important things to note here. First is that no matter which option we choose, we will still have to do some level of work or outreach. 1 and 3 both involve gathering community opinions, just with one being more general than the other, and 2 requires us to reach out to interested parties to create this tier hub in the first place unless we want to use Reddit's or Eventhub's list, which may be shaky. Second, the competitive community would likely be happy to help with this project; we have no shortage of analysts such as {{Sm|PracticalTAS}} who are able to gather a ton of data for us or possibly help directly with suggesting aggregating methods. {{Sm|Ryobeat}} (a top 100 level ''Melee'' player), in particular, [https://twitter.com/RyobeatPeach/status/1226205093864800256 has expressed interest in making a central Google Doc for top 100 players to share ''Melee'' tier list opinions], which would take a lot of work off our backs if they allow us to use that data. I feel like Option 1 can only really work with ''Ultimate'' in its current state and will just create more work for SmashWiki down the line when ''Ultimate'' top player opinions become more concrete. It does not work for older games in the series that are still played because it's far more important to have an ordering of characters in more developed (albeit sometimes still developing) games with smaller roster sizes. Option 2 is extremely prone to bias unless the data is an aggregate from high-leveled players anyway, though I wouldn't be opposed to it if one of the community members mentioned above becomes the host for that central source. <b>-- [[File:Yellow sig.png|16px]] [[User:Yellow|<span style="color:#000;text-shadow: 1px 2px 3px #CCCC00;">Yellow</span>]] [[User talk:Yellow|<span style="color:#006400;text-shadow: 1px 2px 3px #9ACD32;">of the Grove</span>]]</b> 15:48, February 24, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support''': This is our best option going forward as it provides readers with immediate, concrete information about the current metagame based on a variety of sources, and we can always note which characters have the highest deviation in placement between sources. It will take a bit more work than the other two options, for sure, but there are two important things to note here. First is that no matter which option we choose, we will still have to do some level of work or outreach. 1 and 3 both involve gathering community opinions, just with one being more general than the other, and 2 requires us to reach out to interested parties to create this tier hub in the first place unless we want to use Reddit's or Eventhub's list, which may be shaky. Second, the competitive community would likely be happy to help with this project; we have no shortage of analysts such as {{Sm|PracticalTAS}} who are able to gather a ton of data for us or possibly help directly with suggesting aggregating methods. {{Sm|Ryobeat}} (a top 100 level ''Melee'' player), in particular, [https://twitter.com/RyobeatPeach/status/1226205093864800256 has expressed interest in making a central Google Doc for top 100 players to share ''Melee'' tier list opinions], which would take a lot of work off our backs if they allow us to use that data. I feel like Option 1 can only really work with ''Ultimate'' in its current state and will just create more work for SmashWiki down the line when ''Ultimate'' top player opinions become more concrete. It does not work for older games in the series that are still played because it's far more important to have an ordering of characters in more developed (albeit sometimes still developing) games with smaller roster sizes. Option 2 is extremely prone to bias unless the data is an aggregate from high-leveled players anyway, though I wouldn't be opposed to it if one of the community members mentioned above becomes the host for that central source. <b>-- [[File:Yellow sig.png|16px]] [[User:Yellow|<span style="color:#000;text-shadow: 1px 2px 3px #CCCC00;">Yellow</span>]] [[User talk:Yellow|<span style="color:#006400;text-shadow: 1px 2px 3px #9ACD32;">of the Grove</span>]]</b> 15:48, February 24, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support''': I Ike this idea for many reasons, and as someone who’s been wondering what had been halting a SSBU tier list, this option seems like a beautiful way to compromise giving the people an accurate tier list while the SmashWiki gets to mark its place into Smash history. As long as this approach is done with care, SWAT could be an extremely valuable way to finally give SSBU its long-needed “official” tier lists. [[User:TCBlitz|TCBlitz]] ([[User talk:TCBlitz|talk]]) 20:39, March 14, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support (possibly with a slight change))''' First off, even as is, this is by far the best option. Tiers are a very important part of the Smash community (and really the fighting game community as a whole). The discussions on this wiki (and Alex's an my treatise in particular) have been discussed not only in the larger gaming community, but in academic writings on gaming culture and design. We need to stay involved in the tier discussion. If we cannot agree on a single source, then aggregating the different sources is the best option. It is also completely within the purview of an encyclopedia to make determinations on what sources meet the criteria for inclusions, so long as that is based on a review of the methodology and larger community acceptance rather than personal dissent. Now, for my slightly proposed change (which some users above have also hinted at): we should aggregate the tier lists, but not assign numerical rankings to each individual character. We can average out the tier placement from however many sources we deem to be worthy of inclusion, then look for the gaps in placement and assign tiers to each group. We do not need to make a firm distinction between a set of characters who average between 1.8 and 3.2 on the tier list, but if the next fighter after those averages at 4.4 we draw a cutoff. Does this require the most work? Yes. But I still think it's by far the best option. [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 12:59, March 25, 2020 (EDT) | |||
# '''Support'''; Tier lists are an important part of competitive play, which is an important part of game culture. Keeping them is better than removing them, and aggregating them is better than using a single source. – [[User:Smiddle|Smiddle]] 06:21, April 10, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support''': I believe aggregation would be the best way to go about creating a tier list in the absence of a SSBU backroom on SmashBoards. Of course, this will no doubt be an arduous task, however the main point of concern with this option, for me at least, is what sort of criteria a tier list has to follow to be considered 'trustworthy' - obviously you're more likely to find more 'trustworthy' tier lists from top level players but is that the only condition? (for example, what if there is some bias on their tier list, etc.) Regardless, I recognize this option as being perhaps the best course of action seeing that it is the least likely to cause controversy, due to it gathering opinions of course. - [[User:Tantei|Tantei]], 14:00 April 11th, 2020 (BST) | |||
#'''Support''';Given the constantly changing attributes of characters for each update, a semi-regularly updated tier list based on trustworthy sources sounds like the most logical way to go. What we should consider as trustworthy sources should be people who have played the game a ton. '''Professional competitive players.''' Websites like '''Eventhubs''' allow anyone with a keyboard and mouse to add their opinion to the tier list, skewing the data. What we need is a '''google sheet that averages the rankings of the characters ranked by professional players.''' Echo fighters with close attributes to each other like Peach/Daisy and Simon/Richter will be ranked as one fighter, since they're pretty much the same. Mii Fighters, of course, should be unranked just like in Smash 4 due to their customizable moveset. If a professional does rank Mii Fighters, we will simply skip over them, and that will be the end of that. A few competitive players do refuse to rank certain characters, so if a competitive player does not rank a certain character, we will rank it as average. But what about the other characters? We have a formula that will account for the missing fighter. The formula will be '''r/a*m''', where '''r''' is the fighter's rank, '''a''' is the amount of fighters ranked on the player's list, and '''m''' is the maximum amount of fighters possible to rank. Let's say that Wario is ranked 6th out of 70 on a tier list, a list which only ranks 70 of the 73 possible fighters. The formula for Wario's position will be '''(6/70*73)''', making Wario's rank '''aproximately 6.26''', while the missing fighters are ranked as 36.5. These are my ideas that I'm bringing to the table, anyways. [[User:Little Warrior|<span style="background:#040; color:yellow; padding:2px 2px;font-size:12px;">A Little Warrior</span>]][[User talk:Little Warrior|<span style="background:#040; color:yellow; padding:2px 1px;font-size:12px;">Was Here</span>]] 12:10, April 14, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support''';I think option 3 is the best choice because option one would be a bad idea because this website still needs to have tier lists and number 2 is a bad idea too because it will too long to find a good tier list like Smash Boards. [[User:Thegameandwatch|<span style="font-family: Impact; color: Green;">'''Thegameandwatch'''</span>]] [[File:Thegameandwatch signature icon.png|20px]] [[User talk:Thegameandwatch|''<span style="font-family: Apple Chancery; color: blue;">The Nerd </span>'']] 12:58, April 14, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support'''. I think tier lists are a big part of this game and a big point of the Smash community opinion, such as documenting the shift in metagames, from Sheik's domination in Melee to Fox being thought as of the best along with Pichu in Ultimate being dropped down and the constant contention on who is in the top tier, being ZSS, Inkling, Greninja, etc. Aggregating them together isn't a choice that I fully agree, rather I think that if the a group of Smashers from the Smash Back Room release a tier list that asks the opinion of top players and the public and combines them, then I think that's the best option. But if SmashWiki is doing that too, then I don't have any problems. It also would note of how good a character is in the SmashWiki since, if the wiki is about the Smash games and not about the competitive side of it, then I think the wiki would lose a lot of detail and content. Anyways, that's my two cents. [[User:Eexey|Eexey]] ([[User talk:Eexey|talk]]) 01:24, April 18, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support'''. I understand it will be a lot of work, but I would prefer this than having nothing at all. We are a wiki that strives to collect data as much as we possibly can. If that means we have to go through multiple sources and collate the data, so be it. [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|'''Furry Nation''']]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 20:26, April 23, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support'''. I definitely think this is the best option; there are already so many varying opinions on this game's characters, so the best option would be to congregate some of the tier lists / opinions of top players.[[User:AeroBlaze777|AeroBlaze777]] ([[User talk:AeroBlaze777|talk]]) 12:08, April 24, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support'''. My gut instinct tells me that this is the most comprehensive way to determine how good a fighter is - get multiple opinions, not just one. [[User:infernape612|<span style="color:orange">infernape]][[User talk:infernape612|<span style="color:orange">612</span>]]</span> 21:12, May 2, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support''' In my opinion, keeping tier lists is the best option in terms of continuity. It would do future users of the wiki a disservice to do away with tier lists entirely.[[User: JeffStonk|JeffStonk]] 20:14, May 9, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support''' In my opinion, neither of the other two options are viable. A new source would likely be unreliable, and tier lists are an integral part of Smash history. People aren't going to stop making tier lists just because we do. It would only lead to some other site that is harder to access and less reliable displaying lists. So therefore, as the most viable option, we simply need to make an aggregate list. It would be a testament to our work and we would know that it would be reliable. [[User: BitBitio|BitBitio]] 14:39, May 12, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support''' While this is the most work-inducing option, just as an opinion I'd rather have a more accurate tier list that's more precise than vague terms such as "high tier" or "low tier", and I think most people would rather have this speciality too. This would also probably make this site a go-to site for Smash-related topics, news, and the star, a tier list. [[User: certainlyfour|certainlyfour]] 19:05, May 18, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support''' This would be the best option. An even better option would be to get pro player opinions in a discussion forum like PGStats. --[[User:MrMHM|MrMHM]] ([[User talk:MrMHM|talk]]) 10:43, May 27, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support''' It may take a lot of work, but I don't care how long it takes. Quality is what matters in this case. [[User:Son Daniel|<span style="font-family: Arial;color:red;">SonDaniel</span>]][[File:SonDanielSignatureHead1.png|20px]][[File:SonDanielSignatureHead2.png|20px]] ([[User talk:Son Daniel|talk page]]) 19:05, May 29, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support''' for many of the same reasons stated by others above, but mainly because I believe Option 3 is the ideal way to remain a reliable source of information on the ''Smash'' community and metagame, while still maintaining our neutrality. --[[User:Brick3621|Brick3621]] ([[User talk:Brick3621|talk]]) 14:48, June 2, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support''' The tier lists on this wiki have been very helpful to me. (choosing a main and stuff) I would hate to see them gone forever. -ChilePepp3r | |||
#'''Support''' It might even be good to have multiple lists, or at least link to the results based list for more empirical data. With proper disclaimers it's just as relevant as the old smashboards lists. [[User:Snitchface|Snitchface]] ([[User talk:Snitchface|talk]]) 15:19, June 12, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support''' Tier lists have a place on this wiki, and should stay. Only issue I can think of is finding reliable tier list sources, but I'm sure the wiki can do it. [[User:Xm0c|Xm0c]] ([[User talk:Xm0c|talk]]) 15:43, June 15, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#<s>'''Support''' Indeed, the tier list system currently in place is biased. Seeing the tier rankings on this wiki that treat the information as objective really gets on my nerves. There should be a system in place more akin to how Wikipedia treats ratings for movies and video games. Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel the Banjo-Kazooie Boss.]] (Personal conversation [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|here]].) 12:02, July 7, 2020 (EDT)</s> Make that a '''Semi-support?''', with a really big question mark. See my Option 1 Support for more info. Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''Banjo-'''</span><span style="color: #FF1901">'''Kazooie'''</span>]] Boss. [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 00:21, January 1, 2021 (EST) | |||
#"""Support""" Aggregating a score would create an even, un-biased opinion. SmashWiki is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, Smash-related sites out there, and a lot of people (myself included) look at the tier lists for choosing a main and just to see where certain characters stand. As ChilePepp3r said, tier lists can't disappear. Sure, other methods are less work, but this option would solidify tier lists forever, and make SmashWiki the prime site for tier lists. Hence why we need to choose this option. [[User:Super Eli|Super Eli]] ([[User talk:Super Eli|talk]]) 11:55, September 24, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support''' I'm not a huge fan of tier lists personally. However, I recognize that for many people they are a go-to source. I think that as long as they're treated fairly, which aggregation trypically is, I have no issue with tier lists being represented. <span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS; font-size:10pt">[[User:Johnnywellens|<span style="color:forestgreen">JohnnyWellens</span>]]</span> 17:17, October 4, 2020 (EDT)] | |||
#<s>'''Support''' Now I'd waited for my life until the first offical tier list came out and [https://twitter.com/jaaahsh/status/1229812803852173313?lang=en|this is the closest so far]. All I'd wanted to say is that no I'm not crazy of choosing this because this has the most, but it has some reason I needed to choose this one for good reasons. These reasons are from option 3 only due to being a bit lazy. 1. Regularly, tier lists can perform with each individual players in their own perspective with these tier lists, not just one. For example, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5EV406Aeq0|Hungrybox made a tier list] and puts each depth by their own experience by tournaments and one from each basic timeline can tell their own opinions. If one looks more official than the others, they put it first due to how easier it is that these lists are, based on tournament results. 2. Arguebally, the main platforms for tier lists and how each person makes one makes it in a private room like Discord as an example. We should justify the places we would arguably make one. If this wiki has one in the future we can put it in the Discord and make some adjustments into it. Notably, I would also try to use Google Sheets to make it cleaner due to how much people are using Google more. 3. Matchup charts were part of the tier list back then which was used for 64-Brawl, but in Smash 4 they completely removed it. This reason is why match-up charts gotta go. It can still be useable but due to many characters being added from the previous installments to now, it's very hard and not able to know these matchups all combined together. This is why Smash 4 lacked the match-up chart, the big roster and DLC characters made it hard for matchups to begin. This was a problem to Mii Brawler in the early ''Smash 4'' meta and Bayonetta in all when she was released. This is why I gotta choose 3 for a reason with many lackable things like SmashBoards not having one and literally new characters can be hard. But at least we can see other top professional players' opinions.</s> The actual option is actually in Option 1 as I changed my opinion overall. [[User:Howplayz|<span style="font-family: Caveat;color:Blue;">''How''</span>]][[File:IkeHeadEatingChickenSSBU.png|20px]][[User talk:Howplayz|<span style=" font-family: Caveat;color: Gold;">Playz</span>'']] 23:00, September 28, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support''' I honestly think this is the option we should pick and not just because of all the votes already. This one should be the one we select because it'll show we aren't closed off from the rest of the community since we are picking tier lists from all over the community and plus this choice show we aren't totally dependent on others for simple things like tier lists. <font color="red">Preceding comment that was ptotally signed by [[user:CaptainDabsalot|CaptainDabsalot]] ([[user talk:CaptainDabsalot|talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/CaptainDabsalot|Contribs]])</font> 10:51, October 14, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support''' Definitely sounds like the best option, don't really want to see tier lists removed. --[[User:WLord|WLord]] ([[User talk:WLord|talk]]) 21:31, October 24, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support*''' I do believe that tier lists are important and shouldn't be ignored because they are opinionated by nature. Aggregating is the best option, as the subjectivity is kept to a minimum by averaging out the placements. Still, I believe some disclaimers need to be put in front of all of them. First, tier placements do not mean a high tier character will always beat a low tier character, as the outcome is mostly up to the players and their experience with the game. Second, tier lists are meant for serious competitive players that are looking for every little advantage. They are irrelevant for casual players that don't care about competition and those people should be informed about that. Third, tier lists are not set in stone and are subject to change suddenly at any point. Just because a character is in one spot yesterday doesn't necessarily mean said character will be in the same spot today. | |||
#'''Support''' Tier lists matter, we can't just remove them and act as if they didn't. Also at least for the older games that don't get patched tier lists are in huge parts agreed on by the competitive community [[User:Patzui|Patzui]] ([[User talk:Patzui|talk]]) 05:02, November 22, 2020 (EST) | |||
#'''Support''': I think that this is an easily implemented solution right now. I think it's a little ridiculous that new players to the game who want to see a tier list still see a 2015 tier list that just doesn't represent the modern meta. Right now I could throw an average tier list based off leffen, hbox, mew2king and armada's lists and it might not be perfect but it would be already be a more reasonable representation of the meta. Aggregate practically is also the best option because it avoids over weighting projected confidence. As long as reliable people are chosen I think it's the obvious decision | |||
#'''Support''' This is the best method because we take a lot of tier lists and put them together, and that is fair to everyone because it combines opinions instead of going with only one. [[User:SSBU Boi|SSBU Boi]] ([[User talk:SSBU Boi|talk]]) 09:12, December 16, 2020 (EST) | |||
#'''Support''' This is clearly the best option, in my opinion. It doesn't remove information from the wiki like option 1, nor may be completely and utterly unfeasible like option 2. [[User:Aaaaa|Aaaaa]] ([[User talk:Aaaaa|talk]]) 09:55, January 5, 2021 (EST) | |||
==Comments== | ==Comments== | ||
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Would it be in poor taste for me to plug my own WIP tier list aggregate? I've been working on it for months and would be very happy to work with the SmashWiki team on tweaks to better fit the wiki's needs. [[User:Grapevine|Grapevine]] ([[User talk:Grapevine|talk]]) 16:34, February 24, 2020 (EST) | Would it be in poor taste for me to plug my own WIP tier list aggregate? I've been working on it for months and would be very happy to work with the SmashWiki team on tweaks to better fit the wiki's needs. [[User:Grapevine|Grapevine]] ([[User talk:Grapevine|talk]]) 16:34, February 24, 2020 (EST) | ||
:This section isn't for putting what you choose: that's for the actual sections themselves. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 19:35, March 8, 2020 (EDT) | |||
I’m not sure, but I think that Option 1 is the best choice for me and not Option 2 or 3 as that the tier list needs to be specific like S A B C D E F and G tier. | |||
[[User:Howplayz|Howplayz]] ([[User talk:Howplayz|talk]] 18:45, March 8, 2020 (PST) | |||
OK I just read Clarinet Hawk's suggestion that if we do aggregate tier lists, we average the characters instead of listing them numerically. In my opinion should option 3 work that would be the best way to go, and it's more in line with why I chose option 1. That way tier lists will stay but there will be less discord when deciding the characters' placements. Unless a character is undoubtedly the best character in the game [[Meta Knight (SSBB)|or possibly the most broken character in the series]], it's almost not possible to know exactly where a character belongs on the list. [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] <span style="font-family:Algerian">'''[[User:OmegaToad64|<font color="blue">OmegαToαd</font> <font color="aqua">the Toαd Wαrrior</font>]] [[User talk:OmegaToad64|<font color="springgreen">(BUP)</font></span>]]''' 02:48, April 4, 2020 (EDT) | |||
[[User:Howplayz|Howplayz]] Guys I'm making a Smash Tier List. You can edit and anything you want. I'm not sure if this is the right choice for editing, so if any staff can edit there it'll be fine for me. This might be the offical smash tier list if possible. https://docs.google.com/document/d/12vvhR8yk0-zYTMx32Huvg9LxoiuyWb3THYpv2_e3j0M/edit ([[User talk:Howplayz|talk]] 13:54, April 23, 2020 | |||
I made a tier list on a separate page from my userpage. If you want to view it, you can copy and paste it on the searchbar. Let me know if i need to change the version 7.0.0 tier list. [[User:S3AHAWK|<span style="font-family: Arial;color:Blue;">S3AHAWK</span>]][[File:JokerHeadYellowSSBU.png|20px]][[File:InklingHeadGreenSSBU.png|20px]] ([[User talk:S3AHAWK|Talk]]) 18:57, April 25, 2020 (EDT) | |||
:UPDATE: I had to reupload the tier list via Google Docs as a request from CanvasK and Howplayz. The tier list is on the same page as the old one. [[User:S3AHAWK|<span style="font-family: Arial;color:Blue;">S3AHAWK</span>]][[File:S3AHAWK_Signature_icon_1.png|20px]][[File:S3AHAWK_signature_icon_2.png|20px]] ([[User talk:S3AHAWK|Talk]]) 17:57, April 26, 2020 (EDT) | |||
I may be late for this, but while Option 3 seems to be a good way to keep a "neutral" tier-list on the wiki, I'm afraid finding a consensus on what exactly makes a "trustworthy" tier-list will be a nightmare. The mention "(Don't worry about the details for this vote.)" does not help at all to mitigate this fear and kinda pushes me towards Option 1 by default. If some of you could provide some examples of tier-lists and why they're considered trustworthy, that'd be appreciated. [[User:Ponyshment|<span style="color:Purple; text-shadow: 1px 1px 6px purple">'''Ponyshment'''</span>]] [[File:PonyshmentSignature.png|20px|link=User_talk:Ponyshment]] 11:51, May 16, 2020 (EDT) | |||
After seeing how much Smashboards fell from prominence during Smash 4 and the rumblings of whether if we could keep using their tier lists or use the PGR's, I felt this day would come eventually. I certainly agree we shouldn't be giving Smashboards the same reverence as the ultimate competitive Smash authority as we had in the past, because those days were certainly over shortly into Smash 4 and it's an outdated relic now. I do agree with the sentiments that we should still cover tier designations in some way, because they are still of upmost relevance to competitive play, and as I understand, the tier list article has always been one of, if not our most visited article, so it's certainly something of heavy interest to readers. I'm torn though between Options 2 and 3; I don't think Option 3 is very practical, as besides the work involved, how do we determine the "trusted sources"? If we're using individual players, I have absolutely no confidence in it, as you got the whole mess of deciding which players to use, and just basing it on PGR'd players would be awful, as it makes the very flawed assumption that skill = knowledge and there are plenty of PGR-caliber players who simply weren't ranked because of insufficient tournament attendance. Then you also got the issue that individual player tier lists often are not even structured the same way from player to player, complicating how to aggregate them together, and if players know their tier lists are directly influencing the tier rankings used on this wiki, you could very well get players deliberately over-ranking and under-ranking characters to troll or trying to intentionally shift public opinion of a character (e.g. top tier mains downplaying their character in an effort to suppress complaints and possibly prevent their main getting nerfed). Option 3 could be viable if we had multiple acceptably credible groups making tier lists like the Smashboards tier lists of old, but we really don't, it might even be a struggle to decide just one that is "credible enough" to merit documentation on the wiki. | |||
I suppose my current stance is for Ultimate we keep things as is until we get an agreeable enough source for Option 2, and then in the event we have multiple legit and unrelated candidates for Option 2, we then go with Option 3 and aggregate them. Then with all prior games we keep them as is for now but will replace the Smashboards tier list if a new sufficient and up-to-date source comes along (which will probably happen for Melee, but for the other three games those tier lists are probably set in stone barring some miraculous unforeseen resurgence in those games). As for the matchups, I thought that shit was already gone years ago after this [[Forum:Removing matchups from character pages|thread]], my sentiments expressed there are still the same in that the listed Brawl matchups are defensible enough to stay but any matchups listed for other games are just trash that needs to be taken out already, but could merit being brought back in the future if we ever got a legit large scale aggregate effort from a credible group to make a complete matchup chart like the Smashboards' Brawl Back Room did. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 23:40, June 8, 2020 (EDT) | |||
:Heh I was wondering when you were gonna comment, with you being a competitive player and all. Now after a few months I can update my opinions based on my current mindset that's not obsessed solely on [[SW:NPOV]]: I'm debating between Option 1 and 3, however the problem I have with 1 is that tier lists should continue to be documented on this wiki, and not just for historical purposes. Tier lists are an important part of competitive play and should not be removed, removing them will only shun potential readers and editors who have an interest in competitive play. My issues with Option 2 are still remain the same: The problems come from the massive struggle in finding a group that is considered a "trustworthy source". Without the help of competitive players like you, or users who have an extensive amount of knowledge about the games and competitive scene, trying to find a single source that is as credible as Smashboards was will be a very difficult task. If there exists somewhere that is considered a reliable group who make tier lists much like Smashboards, Option 2 is definitely a viable option, however as of right now we don't have one, and until we do this option will not work. Reliability is also the issue I have with Option 3. The difficulty of this option not only comes from the amount of work needed, but also deciding which tier lists are considered "trustworthy". All players have their own opinions on who they consider viable or not, and many if not all tier lists suffer from some degree of bias/subjectivity. Different parts of the world can also have substantially different tier lists, such as our Brawl tier list vs the Japanese one (which personally I consider Japan's to be more accurate). You've also raised another important concern that should not be ignored: Some players may intentionally underrate/overrated a character either to troll or try to convince the community into thinking they're better/worse than they actually are. This raises a big issue if we decide on this option, for instance if we aggregate what we think is reliable, but actually isn't, will degrade this wiki's reputation if it is discovered the sources we used are unreliable and we were spreading misinformation. While the chances of this happening may be slim, it is still a risk that should be considered. | |||
:Although it may not be permanent, one option for Ultimate is to combine the aspects of Option 1 and 3 as Clarinet Hawk suggested: We aggregate reliable tier lists to an extent, however instead of giving numerical placements they are averaged into top, high, etc. Aside from extreme cases such as Brawl MK or SSB4 Bayo, there is no such thing as an objective placement for characters. Still though this is not something I see as being permanent, however in the current circumstance this would be my current stance for Ultimate, and should we find an agreeable source for tier lists then the other 2 options should be considered. As for past games' tier lists I agree to leave them as is until we find up-to-date sufficient sources to replace them (which is bound to happen with SSBM, perhaps that unofficial reddit tier list can be an option). And I didn't mention this initially but now would be a good time to, matchup charts have got to go. Those haven't been updated in forever and have fallen terribly out of date, for instance it is a common agreement now that Brawl Pikachu and Meta Knight is not an even matchup and is clearly in MK's favor. Perhaps yes keep them somewhere for historical purposes, or if when aggregating we can also manage to do a large scale aggregate effort for matchup charts from a credible group and create our own complete ones like Smashboards. [[File:001Toad.jpg|20px]] '''[[User:OmegaToad64|<font color="dodgerblue">Omegα</font>]][[User talk:OmegaToad64|<font color="mediumseagreen">Toαd</font>]][[Special:Contributions/OmegaToad64|<font color="red">64</font>]]''' 04:44, June 9, 2020 (EDT) | |||
The major reason why I'm in favor of Option 1 is that Smash Ultimate tier lists are near-universally opinion based. So they aren't actually being generated based on matchups directly, they're a vague assessment of character "quality" (whatever that means to the person voting or making it). This largely makes them a terrible measure of viability, so they don't have a lot of objective value. And because of all the subjectivity involved, they aren't actually neutrally assessed. So they directly violate wiki rules on neutrality. Opinion-based tiers lists are especially flawed when there are a large number of characters, since even an experienced pro doesn't know all the matchups for characters they're voting on. With all these issues, I don't think numerical tier lists provide meaningful value to this wiki (not more so than more general categories), not for Smash Ultimate at least. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:69.255.29.233|69.255.29.233]] ([[User talk:69.255.29.233|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/69.255.29.233|contribs]]) 15:18, July 2, 2020 (EDT)</small> | |||
One other thing: I'm not sure how we can even consider option 3 unless we have a reliable sense of what tier lists are trustworthy representations of the meta. Right now I'm not sure any of those exist, especially with how much the meta is changing (both with the introduction of new competitive players and the continual rebalancing). If anything, the default should be option 1 until we have a much clearer sense of which tier lists could be considered both reliable and stable. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:LightningRT|LightningRT]] ([[User talk:LightningRT|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/LightningRT|contribs]]) 22:10, July 4, 2020 (EDT)</small> | |||
I feel like the best option is for the a Tier list to be made by the website itself instead of using a 3rd Party source like Smash Boards maybe it could be done by either voting or by the admins themselves but if I have to pick between the options listed here in this debate (1,2,3) I would pick option 3 [[File:ThegameandwatchIcon2.png|20px]] [[User:Thegameandwatch|<span style=" color: Green;">'''Thegameandwatch'''</span>]] [[File:Thegameandwatch signature icon.png|20px]] [[User talk:Thegameandwatch|''<span style="color: blue;">The Nerd </span>'']] 17:08, July 14, 2020 (EDT) | |||
I did ask Strong Badam about this on Smashboards https://smashboards.com/threads/is-smashboards-not-releasing-a-tier-list-until-all-characters-are-released.505801/#post-23995402 [[User:qwertz143|qwertz143]] ([[User talk:qwertz143|talk]]) 1:51, September 5, 2020 (IST) | |||
Could you make a tier list based on character popularity, the best placement at a major, winning/losing MU's etc.? Or would that not work? [[User:Zero Suit|Zero Suit]] ([[User talk:Zero Suit|talk]]) 05:25, September 19, 2020 (EDT) | |||
As I said i in my vote above, why not have a page that shows tournament matchups within a major update period, with a running total for all matchups to see who appears to do best against who among those dedicated tournamenters. This could also help show which characters are "top tier" due more to just high usage as well as which are "bottom tier" due to mere lack of popular use in tournament play. It would serve the same effect as a tier list but able to be more fluid as well as letting people see the actual data driving the status of "top/bottom tier".[[User:Jarie Suicune|Jarie Suicune]] ([[User talk:Jarie Suicune|talk]]) 22:58, October 11, 2020 (EDT) | |||
I don't get why some tier lists show Ganondorf to be low tier. [[User:Palutena|Palutena]] ([[User talk:Palutena|talk]]) 20:45, October 22, 2020 (EDT) | |||
The reason why Ganon is shown to be low or bottom tier is how the metagame has progressed. Ganon's flaws are so noticeable due to his bad recovery, slow moves, and a big hitbox. [[User:Howplayz|<span style="font-family: Caveat;color:Black;">''How''</span>]][[User talk:Howplayz|<span style=" font-family: Caveat;color: Orange;">playz</span>'']] 22:20, October 22, 2020 (EDT) | |||
And I don't get why Zero Suit Samus is number 1 on Japanese tier lists. [[User:Palutena|Palutena]] ([[User talk:Palutena|talk]]) 06:55, October 23, 2020 (EDT) | |||
Lucina is overrated in my opinion. Some tier lists put here in Top tier when I think she's high tier at best. [[User:Palutena|Palutena]] ([[User talk:Palutena|talk]]) 11:09, October 23, 2020 (EDT) | |||
And I think characters like Pit, Dark Pit and Lucas are probably gonna be high mid-tier in by the end of Ultimate. [[User:Palutena|Palutena]] ([[User talk:Palutena|talk]]) 11:19, October 23, 2020 (EDT) | |||
I don't get why Bowser Jr. is low tier. He seems decent enough on Wi-Fi. [[User:Palutena|Palutena]] ([[User talk:Palutena|talk]]) 11:22, October 23, 2020 (EDT) | |||
But if we're talking about offline then I see why Bowser Jr. is awful [[User:Palutena|Palutena]] ([[User talk:Palutena|talk]]) 11:26, October 23, 2020 (EDT) | |||
:Please keep topics relevant to the discussion rather than ranting about character placements. [[User:RandomUltimate|RandomUltimate]] ([[User talk:RandomUltimate|talk]]) 11:29, October 23, 2020 (EDT) | |||
==Closing== | |||
It's been a year, so I'm closing the vote. Clearly option 2 is not very well-liked. While option 3 is the most popular, I am surprised at how much traction option 1 has gotten, so it doesn't feel right to simply wash it away as a "loser". | |||
So what now? I've been working on-and-off at how to construct part 2 of the vote, as well as a few ideas for how an aggregate list of ours would work. I plan to finish these up and (hopefully, nothing's guaranteed) have them ready for part 2 in a month. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Xanthic 23:47, January 27, 2021 (EST) | |||