SmashWiki talk:Cleanup of the Notable Players sections

More characters who I believe should have a limit of 15

Smash 64: Fox

Melee: Jigglypuff, Ice Climbers

Brawl: Marth, Falco, Diddy Kong, Snake

SSB4: Mario, Fox, Sheik, Mewtwo, Diddy Kong, Zero Suit Samus, Sonic, Rosalina, Ryu

Ultimate: Mario, Yoshi, Fox, Pikachu, Peach/Daisy, Mr. Game and Watch, Roy, Pichu, Zero Suit Samus, Pokémon Trainer, Wario, R.O.B., Snake, Wolf, Greninja, Palutena, Mega Man, Lucina, Inkling, Joker

RickTommy 03:35, July 16, 2021 (EDT)

I definitely agree with Wolf, even cookies in the doc said when it reaches around 15 it gets really rough. PT probably makes sense too consider the amount of top players mains. Not sure about the others didn't really think about them yet. NPM Morr!? 03:38, July 16, 2021 (EDT)

Please don't write just a bunch of names at once, and focus on one case at a time with a well-reasoned argument for why. Also before suggesting any Ult characters, be mindful that the game only has a bit over a year of offline competitive history and then a year and half of online history, there's little actual history for these characters and you're likely setting your standards way too low if you think those characters should have more than ten players. For example, all those characters suggested don't even have more than a handful of players maining them on the last PGR, like are you going to really tell me Pikachu should have more than ten players when Esam was the only Pikachu player on the last PGR? If you can't name more than ten legitimate top players of a character, it's a definite no-go. Omega Tyrant 03:44, July 16, 2021 (EDT)

I would say a definite no to most of these except maybe 64 Fox, Brawl Snake and SSB4 Diddy (but I am not a 64 or Brawl expert so I am only basing this on a gut feeling that could be wrong). You should keep in mind that playerbase size does not directly correlate with tier standing, a textbook example of this would be Jigglypuff in Melee, which despite its tier ranking of #3 only has Hungrybox and Mango as truly notable top level representatives on an historical level. I am echoing OmegaTyrant on Ultimate, none of these characters deserve to have their list expanded yet, we can have this discussion again at the end of the game's life span or if, god forbid, a DLC character becomes absurdly dominant on the level of Cloud and Bayonetta in SSB4. --Rdrfc (talk) 04:07, July 16, 2021 (EDT)

I considered those three, but when taking a preliminary look at their already existing sections, 64 Fox and Smash 4 Diddy do not appear to have more than ten players that are too indispensable to not mention. Then I was certain I was going to automatically approve Brawl Snake before this, since he was the definite #2 in playerbase after MK, but then I took a look at his current list that has just 13 players, with a few I would for sure take off that would bring it to 10, so he is a no-go unless it's demonstrated how there's more Brawl Snake players not already on there that absolutely need to be mentioned. Omega Tyrant 04:20, July 16, 2021 (EDT)

(Edit conflict) The thing that you guys missing is that Ultimate is bigger than ever like it has bigger tournaments than any other games. *sigh Thanks to Ultimate many rather unknown scenes get to have much bigger tournaments and recognition that probably other games won't get to have. The high level play gets much tenser than before as there are just so much talent in this game. Some characters get to deserve a more detailed description on their history because they are able to dominate multiple regions of the game. A character like Wolf would be a perfect example, Wolf has a significantly bigger impact than a lot of characters due to how many players are able to dominate their regions with the characters. It feels like Ultimate his a big history despite it actual lifespan isn't that long yet. Of course the roster is way bigger than other games too. Multiple characters/regions get to shine in competitive play. NPM Morr!? 04:26, July 16, 2021 (EDT)

You keep harping on about Wolf, but can you even name ten legitimate top-level Wolf mains with at least a year of established history with him and whose Wolf exploits will still for sure be "historically significant" in a couple more years? The first PGR had just Zackray for legitimate Wolf Mains, then four more on the X-Factor survey. Then the second PGR didn't have any Wolf mains, while Zackray's Wolf usage decreased significantly in that time, and just two more on the X-Factor survey. Again, you are very likely setting your standards too low, these sections are not just for listing "every pretty good player with the character and every top player who played a few matches with them", which is what made these sections such a mess in the first place. Omega Tyrant 04:38, July 16, 2021 (EDT)

Echoing OT here, it's way too early to decide who gets to have an expanded section for Ult (the game doesn't even have an official tier list yet). Unless there's an obvious candidate, what we should do is at least wait until all DLC is released before deciding who gets more than 10 players. Like, how does Pikachu deserve 15 players when Esam is currently the only one pushing him? Omega Toad, the Toad Warrior. (I'm the best!) 04:46, July 16, 2021 (EDT)

I do see where NPM is coming from for Wolf. Whittling him down to 10 players has been a rather difficult task since he's one of the most used characters in the game, not to mention there are many players ranked on a national scale that do use Wolf (for example, 6 players in Europe's top 50 and 7 players in Mexico's top 50 have Wolf mains/secondaries). I also do see where OT is coming from: most of these results are only within the first year of competitive Ultimate, which means it's possible for many of them to fall out of the spotlight within the next few years (not to mention how some of them, such as Ogey, have stopped using the character). I think it comes down to the difficulty it is for me, NPM, and others who worked on the document to ignore the good results that we have right now when considering how these results would hold in 2 or 3 more years, and that's the most apparent with Wolf.

Other than that, I don't think any of the other characters listed here should have anything beyond 10, especially when just considering those ranked nationally. CookiesCreme 13:20, July 16, 2021 (EDT)

Speaking of players, OT how would you consider the 15 players we have listed for Wolf on this document? The ones from Charliedaking to Zackray. CookiesCreme 13:29, July 16, 2021 (EDT)