Forum:Removing definitives in Smasher articles

Forums: Index → Proposals → Removing definitives in Smasher articles

This is a closed discussion about an accepted proposed change on SmashWiki. It remains for archival purposes. The closing administrator adds: "Serpent  King 16:25, March 29, 2021 (EDT)"

So recently, someone has made a tweet about our wiki's bias towards American smashers, or rather, how we mostly say Americans are the "best players in the world" and very top Japanese players "the best in their country."

I have questioned the validity of some of these statements myself, and have, for the most part, tried avoiding using definitives like that; at the same time, I do admit I used some definitives in the past. I also believe that, since most people on the wiki don't focus on the competitive scene pages in the first place, that it's always one person making the decisions. My proposal is that we get rid of definitives like that, or, if possible, remove all similar ones altogether, since being "the best" is highly subjective in many cases. CookiesCreme 16:23, September 9, 2019 (EDT)

Support As you said, who's considered one of the best is subjective, and I believe that 1) shouldn't be our call; 2) makes us sound unprofessional; 3) subjectivity doesn't belong on the wiki in general (possibly under SmashWiki is not speculative). The most we should do is just provide the facts on how well they have placed in tourneys. VoqéoT 16:41, September 9, 2019 (EDT)

I think that if we are going to call someone the "best in X" it should be backed up by PR and not just a wild claim. SerpentKing 16:55, September 9, 2019 (EDT)

There are some problems with that. 1, Not all characters are ranked on PRs. For example, there is no Cloud player on the PGRU, nor are there any Jigglypuff players in New York's Power Rankings. 2, Even if some characters are ranked, the player rarely even uses the character (eg. Captain L's Kirby). Finally, PR themselves are generally controversial since the algorithm may have made some players higher ranked than others; a player that hasn't attended much tournaments but place very well at the ones he did may be ranked lower than a player who has consistently placed somewhat highly at tournaments. CookiesCreme 17:03, September 9, 2019 (EDT)

It's fine to list people who aren't ranked, but we shouldn't be able to make "best of" claims without some kind of proof. SerpentKing 17:09, September 9, 2019 (EDT)

I think barring extremely notable players (whether globally, regionally, or character specific), we should refrain from making claims like that as a whole and let tournament results and power rankings speak for themselves. --Rdrfc (talk) 05:17, September 10, 2019 (EDT)

Since this is still active I thought I'd resurrect it. I believe that if a player is to be called the best, there should be significant backing behind it. Results, highest on PGR (though even that's iffy), notable wins, etc. I think a better way to put it is "among the best in the world", which leaves it open-ended as to who is actually the best. I think adding it to wiki policy moving forward is best. --Plague von Karma 19:27, April 28, 2020 (EDT)

Resurrecting this again as I continue to see this stuff on the wiki, even when I continually try to remove it on the K. Rool and Terry pages. Even now, there is a very clear bias towards American smashers on the wiki and it's becoming progressively more annoying to see. Is it really so hard to say "among the best in the country" for those who don't compete internationally, and "among the best in the world" when they see worldwide success? It's almost impossible to determine who's a world-class player. There's literally PRs right there for you to say "the best in the region according to their PR placing" or something like that, there are so many alternatives to calling American Falcon and Lucina player #34567 a world-class competitor (yes this is hyperbole). I strongly believe that wiki editors aren't looking into regions outside of Japan and the US as well, especially when looking at this stream of burgerland flags that's absolutely not the only case on this wiki. I would much rather see a selection of dominant players from different countries than 12 Americans, sort of like Peach's page. Not to toot my own horn, but I think the King K. Rool page is an ideal display: multiple Americans, but not too many, and a diverse selection of players from across the world. America is a strong country and absolutely a hive of activity, but it's not the only country on the planet, no matter what the Roy player from your SoCal local tells you. --Plague von Karma 04:47, March 24, 2021 (EDT)

Why don't we just put "is often regarded as being one of best in x" instead of saying outright is the best. I definitely think the bias is real. People often say Bassmage is the best Jigglypuff in the world, all the while a player like Arika has the history, pedigree, tournament placings and is ranked in the top 100 of his country. This is just one example, but we cant be the arbiter of who is the best. However, we can describe how professional smashers view the player Wiifitkid (talk) 19:35, April 28, 2020 (EDT)

I believe we should still have a definitive for those that are unanimously agreed to be the best, eg. MkLeo for Joker. We can use "one of the best" for some characters as people have said above, but for the most part "the best" should be avoided, especially for cases where multiple players can have the title. CookiesCreme 20:19, April 28, 2020 (EDT)

SupportAs mentioned above.S3AHAWK (Talk) 20:20, April 28, 2020 (EDT)

Supporting. Keep definitives for obvious ones and just "one of the best". I hate bias. 46.229.158.109 04:22, June 15, 2020 (EDT)

bump S3AHAWK (talk) 01:08, August 12, 2020 (EDT)

Support Thegameandwatch The Nerd 16:13, September 15, 2020 (EDT)

Support using "one of the best" instead of "the best" ---PinkYoshiFan 08:38, October 18, 2020 (EDT)