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Forum:Tier list debate 2020: Part 1: Difference between revisions
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#'''Support''': I have to agree, Nintendo's updates have killed the potential of a tier list. The added bonus of tier lists being extremely subjective, and you have tier lists that not many would want to set their eyes upon. I feel like a more appropriate list would be to rank usage of certain fighters and their win-loss ratio, like how many Melee Fox mains have won with their specific character, but that's a lot of work. Similarly, aggregating every tier list might be time-consuming on the basis that we have to consider what sources we pull in to make each tier lists, and we can't go around town to see if there's another tier list we can manage. Feels like the idea of a tier list is dead for now. I want to keep it that way, because it means we don't see the community preferring to main a specific fighter because he's high tier and they can't fight jackshit whenever they go to tourney. I'm interested for diversity when it comes to what fighter is picked at a tourney, instead of just high-tier non-stop (though the Melee side will sadly deal with 'Fox only' shenanigans for a long time; that game's never getting updated). -- [[File:PolipedeScorbunnySmashIcon.png|23px|link=]] [[User:Scorbunny|Scorbunny]] ([[User talk:Scorbunny|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Scorbunny|contributions]]) 16:14, February 29, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support''': I have to agree, Nintendo's updates have killed the potential of a tier list. The added bonus of tier lists being extremely subjective, and you have tier lists that not many would want to set their eyes upon. I feel like a more appropriate list would be to rank usage of certain fighters and their win-loss ratio, like how many Melee Fox mains have won with their specific character, but that's a lot of work. Similarly, aggregating every tier list might be time-consuming on the basis that we have to consider what sources we pull in to make each tier lists, and we can't go around town to see if there's another tier list we can manage. Feels like the idea of a tier list is dead for now. I want to keep it that way, because it means we don't see the community preferring to main a specific fighter because he's high tier and they can't fight jackshit whenever they go to tourney. I'm interested for diversity when it comes to what fighter is picked at a tourney, instead of just high-tier non-stop (though the Melee side will sadly deal with 'Fox only' shenanigans for a long time; that game's never getting updated). -- [[File:PolipedeScorbunnySmashIcon.png|23px|link=]] [[User:Scorbunny|Scorbunny]] ([[User talk:Scorbunny|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Scorbunny|contributions]]) 16:14, February 29, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support''': I'm torn between this and the third option, but I'm slightly edging towards this one. While I do think it's a good idea to continue documenting characters' strengths and weaknesses as well as what is the general consensus of how good they are, explicit tier lists have always only ever been argument fodder - not only with the precise placement of characters but in terms of whose list is taken as (the most) valid and how egos have historically played into that; as aside, this is one of the reasons why I have ''never'' been okay with people seeing SmashBoards and particularly the reclusive Back Room(s) as the sole authority on Smash, so the notion that things are becoming decentralized (which is news to me, honestly) is the exact opposite of what I'd call a "depressing reality". What I'd recommend instead of tier placement on the game and character pages themselves is a collection of links to popular tier lists on each game's ''competitive'' page, as a means of quick reference and comparison for people explicitly looking for competitive info. Admittedly, this ties into my long-running wish for the wiki to become a more general informational resource like other NIWA wikis with all the competitive/community material cordoned off into its own hub or sub-wiki, but that debate on the whole is outside the scope of this discussion. On this topic in particular, my vote is for the wiki to be largely hands-off but to point players interested in that kind of info in the right direction rather than just leave them hanging. [[Image:VinSymbol.png|16px|link=User:VinLAURiA]][[User:VinLAURiA|VinLAURiA]] ([[User talk:VinLAURiA|talk]]) 12:28, April 1, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support''': I'm torn between this and the third option, but I'm slightly edging towards this one. While I do think it's a good idea to continue documenting characters' strengths and weaknesses as well as what is the general consensus of how good they are, explicit tier lists have always only ever been argument fodder - not only with the precise placement of characters but in terms of whose list is taken as (the most) valid and how egos have historically played into that; as aside, this is one of the reasons why I have ''never'' been okay with people seeing SmashBoards and particularly the reclusive Back Room(s) as the sole authority on Smash, so the notion that things are becoming decentralized (which is news to me, honestly) is the exact opposite of what I'd call a "depressing reality". What I'd recommend instead of tier placement on the game and character pages themselves is a collection of links to popular tier lists on each game's ''competitive'' page, as a means of quick reference and comparison for people explicitly looking for competitive info. Admittedly, this ties into my long-running wish for the wiki to become a more general informational resource like other NIWA wikis with all the competitive/community material cordoned off into its own hub or sub-wiki, but that debate on the whole is outside the scope of this discussion. On this topic in particular, my vote is for the wiki to be largely hands-off but to point players interested in that kind of info in the right direction rather than just leave them hanging. [[Image:VinSymbol.png|16px|link=User:VinLAURiA]][[User:VinLAURiA|VinLAURiA]] ([[User talk:VinLAURiA|talk]]) 12:28, April 1, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#'''Support''': Yeah, with the exception of extremities like ''Brawl'' Meta Knight and ''Smash 4'' Bayonetta, it isn't exactly a good idea to claim that, for example, {{SSBM|Mr. Game & Watch}} in ''Melee'' is ranked 20th out of 26 (as opposed to 21st, 19th, or 22nd, which have all been his ranking on official SmashBoards tier lists of the past)—the best we can really go for is to say that he's a low-tier character that probably isn't tournament-viable. Not everyone even agrees that {{SSBM|Fox}} is 1st out of 26 in ''Melee''. Option 3 may or may not also be able to work, but deciding on exactly how to average them can be a hard task on its own. A similar thing mostly applies to matchups: there are a select few that are undisputably in one side's favor (such as Sheik against Bowser in ''Melee''), but otherwise, we can't really say much about them (except that high-tiers generally have favorable matchups over low-tiers). Plainly we should at least keep historical tier lists and matchup charts, though, but plainly we should also mark them as being historical and therefore potentially out of date. --[[User:Volleo6144|Volleo6144]] ([[User talk:Volleo6144|talk]]) 18:09, April 5, 2020 (EDT) | |||
===Option 2: New source=== | ===Option 2: New source=== | ||