Editing User talk:Zeldasmash/Rejected Characters

==I sense fanboy==
Don't you?--<span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>[[File:Decepticon.png|20px|:p]] 16:51, 11 November 2010 (EST)
:Yup pretty much. No offense ZS but these results suck so bad. I mean how the hell does he have an advantage against Dedede and sheik when they're big gimpers in the game and that Link is the easiest to gimp in the game. [[User:Doc King|Doc King]] ([[User talk:Doc King|talk]]) 16:54, 11 November 2010 (EST)
::>:( Ok
King Dedede. Link is a decent comboer and can combo him. Link's extremely high vertical survivability and King Dedede (for me) is a better vertical killer. And most importantly, LINK"S Z-AIR, Link's most useful move on Dedede which can combo him into a DACUS, which is another thing. And he once had a 60:40 against him, so this isnt the first time you saw a 60:40 with Link against Dedede. Sheik. Lightweight + Z-Air + DACUS + Fastfaller (Sheik) = D-Air KO. [[User:Zeldasmash|Zeldasmash]] ([[User talk:Zeldasmash|talk]]) 17:07, 11 November 2010 (EST)
:::Dude, Dedede has amazing chain throwing ability against Link and can gimp him so easy. Sheik can tilt lock him and is a good gimper which destroys Link. Dedede can also kill horizontally. [[User:Doc King|Doc King]] ([[User talk:Doc King|talk]]) 17:13, 11 November 2010 (EST)

I came to just pop in, and I must say, these matchups are horribly biased. There's simply no way Link would have a 60:40 matchup against Dedede and a 60:40 matchup average. In case you forgot, Dedede's primary vertical killer, his u-tilt, has very high knockback scaling, so Link's vertical momentum cancelling won't help much against it. But Dedede isn't going to be killing Link with that. Link is going to get killed by Dedede's fair and bair WoPs, which Link's vertical MC won't help against at all. And Dedede's vertical endurance is even greater than Link's, so you're not going to kill him so easily with your dair. Dedede's chain throw is also going to have a much bigger impact on the matchup than Link's zair and DACUS. And another thing, Dedede's Waddle Dees would work well at protecting him from Link's projectiles.

Anyway, it's fine and such to think your character is underrated, but there's a difference between that and being just outright delusional about them, the latter of which is poisonous to your game with that character imo. <span style="font-family:Vijaya; font-size:12pt">[[User:Garo108|<span style="color:brown">Garo</span>]][[User talk:Garo108|<span style="color:lightgreen">108</span>]]</span> 17:27, 11 November 2010 (EST)
::::Look at Dededes Matchup with Link [[User:Zeldasmash|Zeldasmash]] ([[User talk:Zeldasmash|talk]]) 17:43, 11 November 2010 (EST)
{|border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="text-align:center"
|+'''Super Smash Bros. Brawl Character Matchups'''
|-
|&nbsp;||[[Image:MetaKnightHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:SnakeHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:FalcoHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:DededeHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:GWHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:MarthHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:DiddyHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:WarioHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:ROBHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:LucarioHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:OlimarHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:PikachuHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:KirbyHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:DKHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:IceClimbersHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:ZSSHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:ToonLinkHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:PitHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:PeachHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:WolfHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:LuigiHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:ZeldaHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:BowserHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:FoxHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:SheikHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:IkeHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:MarioHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:LucasHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:NessHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:SamusHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:SonicHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:PTHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:CharizardHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:IvysaurHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:SquirtleHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:YoshiHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:LinkHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:JigglypuffHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:GanondorfHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:CFalconHead.png|20px]]||Avg.||&nbsp;
|- style="background:#ff3f3f"
|[[Image:DededeHead.png|20px]]||{{Matchup|40|20}}||{{Matchup|60|20}}||{{Matchup|35|20}}||{{Matchup|M|20}}||{{Matchup|40|20}}||{{Matchup|55|20}}||{{Matchup|40|20}}||{{Matchup|45|20}}||{{Matchup|55|20}}||{{Matchup|60|20}}||{{Matchup|40|20}}||{{Matchup|35|20}}||{{Matchup|40|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|30|20}}||{{Matchup|45|20}}||{{Matchup|55|20}}||{{Matchup|55|20}}||{{Matchup|50|20}}||{{Matchup|70|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|40|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|50|20}}||{{Matchup|55|20}}||{{Matchup|70|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|55|20}}||{{Matchup|60|20}}||{{Matchup|SH|20}}||{{Matchup|SH|20}}||{{Matchup|55|20}}||{{Matchup|60|20}}||{{Matchup|60|20}}||{{Matchup|45|20}}||{{Matchup|55|20}}||{{Matchup|N|20}}||{{Matchup|55|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|50|20}}||[[Image:DededeHead.png|20px]]
|- style="background:#3fbf3f"
|[[Image:LinkHead.png|20px]]||{{Matchup|30|20}}||{{Matchup|50|20}}||{{Matchup|30|20}}||{{Matchup|60|20}}||{{Matchup|SH|20}}||{{Matchup|SH|20}}||{{Matchup|50|20}}||{{Matchup|40|20}}||{{Matchup|SH|20}}||{{Matchup|40|20}}||{{Matchup|SH|20}}||{{Matchup|N|20}}||{{Matchup|30|20}}||{{Matchup|60|20}}||{{Matchup|N|20}}||{{Matchup|40|20}}||{{Matchup|40|20}}||{{Matchup|SH|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|40|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|SH|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|35|20}}||{{Matchup|SH|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|N|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|55|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|50|20}}||{{Matchup|60|20}}||{{Matchup|55|20}}||{{Matchup|40|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|M|20}}||{{Matchup|N|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|45|20}}||[[Image:LinkHead.png|20px]]
|}
:::::Your matchupes are not proof of this, k? We also do not use SH signs for this. Matchup we have says 75:25 in DDD's favor. Bleh.--<span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>[[File:Decepticon.png|20px|:p]] 17:44, 11 November 2010 (EST)


This is in userspace and not against any rules; therefore ZS is pretty much allowed to completely ignore everything but his own opinions/rules. I suggest people that don't agree simply stay away so we don't get pointless bickering. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Data Node|Data Node]] 17:46, 11 November 2010 (EST)
:Toomai, me and ZS are just pointing out that his stuff is useless and doesn't affect anything (basically helping him). I think we should just ignore him and just have him make all of this garbage with no one to support it and then he'll learn that fanon doesn't mean anything about Tiers or matchups. [[User:Doc King|Doc King]] ([[User talk:Doc King|talk]]) 17:51, 11 November 2010 (EST)
::Doc your starting to piss me off with that attitude. Just dont agree and thats it. Damn, seriously, just dont agree and end of discussion. [[User:Zeldasmash|Zeldasmash]] ([[User talk:Zeldasmash|talk]]) 17:55, 11 November 2010 (EST)

:I just thought I would give my opinion on this. If Zeldasmash chooses to not listen to it, that's fine. I don't intend to argue here anyway. I must ask though, Zeldasmash has an awful lot of user subpages, is this considered excessive by the Wiki, or is it acceptable? <span style="font-family:Vijaya; font-size:12pt">[[User:Garo108|<span style="color:brown">Garo</span>]][[User talk:Garo108|<span style="color:lightgreen">108</span>]]</span> 18:10, 11 November 2010 (EST)
::It's okay to have a lot of user subpages as long as they don't interfere with the actual wiki. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Data Node|Data Node]] 18:12, 11 November 2010 (EST)

== Link ==

It's one thing to say that Sakurai should have made Link better, and that this is what you think his matchups would be if they had. However, it is false to pass off matchups that are plain out false to be true. There is no way, as people have stated, for Link to have a 60 matchup against DDD. Dedede has infinite chaingrabs, incredible KO power, an amazing recovery, heavy weight, and Dedecide. Link has slow speed, poor priority, pretty much no KO moves, arguably the worst recovery in the game, and no comboing abilities. [[User:Mr. Anon|Mr. Anon]] ([[User talk:Mr. Anon|talk]]) 13:10, 12 November 2010 (EST)
:Also, just because Nintendo likes doesn't mean Sakurai agrees. Sakurai obviously adores Kirby but didn't make him rapage good did he?--<span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>[[File:Decepticon.png|20px|:p]] 13:17, 12 November 2010 (EST)
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@@ Line 13: / Line 13: @@
 |+'''Super Smash Bros. Brawl Character Matchups'''
 |-
-|&nbsp;||[[Image:MetaKnightHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:SnakeHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:FalcoHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:KingDededeHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:MrGame&WatchHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:MarthHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:DiddyKongHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:WarioHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:ROBHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:LucarioHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:OlimarHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:PikachuHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:KirbyHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:DonkeyKongHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:IceClimbersHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:ZeroSuitSamusHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:ToonLinkHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:PitHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:PeachHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:WolfHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:LuigiHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:ZeldaHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:BowserHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:FoxHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:SheikHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:IkeHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:MarioHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:LucasHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:NessHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:SamusHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:SonicHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:PokémonTrainerHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:CharizardHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:IvysaurHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:SquirtleHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:YoshiHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:LinkHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:JigglypuffHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:GanondorfHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:CaptainFalconHead.png|20px]]||Avg.||&nbsp;
+|&nbsp;||[[Image:MetaKnightHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:SnakeHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:FalcoHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:DededeHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:GWHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:MarthHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:DiddyHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:WarioHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:ROBHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:LucarioHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:OlimarHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:PikachuHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:KirbyHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:DKHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:IceClimbersHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:ZSSHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:ToonLinkHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:PitHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:PeachHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:WolfHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:LuigiHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:ZeldaHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:BowserHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:FoxHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:SheikHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:IkeHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:MarioHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:LucasHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:NessHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:SamusHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:SonicHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:PTHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:CharizardHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:IvysaurHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:SquirtleHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:YoshiHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:LinkHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:JigglypuffHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:GanondorfHead.png|20px]]||[[Image:CFalconHead.png|20px]]||Avg.||&nbsp;
 |- style="background:#ff3f3f"
-|[[Image:KingDededeHead.png|20px]]||{{Matchup|40|20}}||{{Matchup|60|20}}||{{Matchup|35|20}}||{{Matchup|M|20}}||{{Matchup|40|20}}||{{Matchup|55|20}}||{{Matchup|40|20}}||{{Matchup|45|20}}||{{Matchup|55|20}}||{{Matchup|60|20}}||{{Matchup|40|20}}||{{Matchup|35|20}}||{{Matchup|40|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|30|20}}||{{Matchup|45|20}}||{{Matchup|55|20}}||{{Matchup|55|20}}||{{Matchup|50|20}}||{{Matchup|70|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|40|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|50|20}}||{{Matchup|55|20}}||{{Matchup|70|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|55|20}}||{{Matchup|60|20}}||{{Matchup|SH|20}}||{{Matchup|SH|20}}||{{Matchup|55|20}}||{{Matchup|60|20}}||{{Matchup|60|20}}||{{Matchup|45|20}}||{{Matchup|55|20}}||{{Matchup|N|20}}||{{Matchup|55|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|50|20}}||[[Image:KingDededeHead.png|20px]]
+|[[Image:DededeHead.png|20px]]||{{Matchup|40|20}}||{{Matchup|60|20}}||{{Matchup|35|20}}||{{Matchup|M|20}}||{{Matchup|40|20}}||{{Matchup|55|20}}||{{Matchup|40|20}}||{{Matchup|45|20}}||{{Matchup|55|20}}||{{Matchup|60|20}}||{{Matchup|40|20}}||{{Matchup|35|20}}||{{Matchup|40|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|30|20}}||{{Matchup|45|20}}||{{Matchup|55|20}}||{{Matchup|55|20}}||{{Matchup|50|20}}||{{Matchup|70|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|40|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|50|20}}||{{Matchup|55|20}}||{{Matchup|70|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|55|20}}||{{Matchup|60|20}}||{{Matchup|SH|20}}||{{Matchup|SH|20}}||{{Matchup|55|20}}||{{Matchup|60|20}}||{{Matchup|60|20}}||{{Matchup|45|20}}||{{Matchup|55|20}}||{{Matchup|N|20}}||{{Matchup|55|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|50|20}}||[[Image:DededeHead.png|20px]]
 |- style="background:#3fbf3f"
 |[[Image:LinkHead.png|20px]]||{{Matchup|30|20}}||{{Matchup|50|20}}||{{Matchup|30|20}}||{{Matchup|60|20}}||{{Matchup|SH|20}}||{{Matchup|SH|20}}||{{Matchup|50|20}}||{{Matchup|40|20}}||{{Matchup|SH|20}}||{{Matchup|40|20}}||{{Matchup|SH|20}}||{{Matchup|N|20}}||{{Matchup|30|20}}||{{Matchup|60|20}}||{{Matchup|N|20}}||{{Matchup|40|20}}||{{Matchup|40|20}}||{{Matchup|SH|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|40|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|SH|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|35|20}}||{{Matchup|SH|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|N|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|55|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|50|20}}||{{Matchup|60|20}}||{{Matchup|55|20}}||{{Matchup|40|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|M|20}}||{{Matchup|N|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|SE|20}}||{{Matchup|45|20}}||[[Image:LinkHead.png|20px]]
@@ Line 33: / Line 33: @@
 It's one thing to say that Sakurai should have made Link better, and that this is what you think his matchups would be if they had. However, it is false to pass off matchups that are plain out false to be true. There is no way, as people have stated, for Link to have a 60 matchup against DDD. Dedede has infinite chaingrabs, incredible KO power, an amazing recovery, heavy weight, and Dedecide. Link has slow speed, poor priority, pretty much no KO moves, arguably the worst recovery in the game, and no comboing abilities. [[User:Mr. Anon|Mr. Anon]] ([[User talk:Mr. Anon|talk]]) 13:10, 12 November 2010 (EST)
 :Also, just because Nintendo likes doesn't mean Sakurai agrees. Sakurai obviously adores Kirby but didn't make him rapage good did he?--<span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>[[File:Decepticon.png|20px|:p]] 13:17, 12 November 2010 (EST)
-::I'm saying that Sakurai could have given Link more of a chance in the smash games. I never said anything about his popularity. [[User:Mr. Anon|Mr. Anon]] ([[User talk:Mr. Anon|talk]]) 13:28, 12 November 2010 (EST)
-:::I thought this matter was closed, but some of your facts are wrong. Link does not have "poor" [[priority]], and he does have plenty of KO moves (f-smash, d-smash, f-tilt, u-tilt, fair, uair, and dair, all can KO under 150%). Dedede's infinite also doesn't work against Link without a wall, so that really doesn't matter in the matchup. <span style="font-family:Vijaya; font-size:12pt">[[User:Garo108|<span style="color:brown">Garo</span>]][[User talk:Garo108|<span style="color:lightgreen">108</span>]]</span> 15:24, 12 November 2010 (EST)
-:::You can also add Spin Attack to the list of his KO moves, and the d-tilt, if you're very lucky, or have precise aim when edgeguarding. <span style="font-family:Vijaya; font-size:12pt">[[User:Garo108|<span style="color:brown">Garo</span>]][[User talk:Garo108|<span style="color:lightgreen">108</span>]]</span> 15:30, 12 November 2010 (EST)
-::::Anon, your actually wrong with Links combo ability and KO moves, those are like what Link is best at basically. [[User:Doc King|Doc King]] ([[User talk:Doc King|talk]]) 16:26, 12 November 2010 (EST)
-==Matchups==
-I think that making a chart if Link had a different recovery is an inaccurate list since recovery is part of the game rules that people follow in tourney play. Imo, Links matchups are fine for the most part. [[User:Doc King|Doc King]] ([[User talk:Doc King|talk]]) 22:24, 18 December 2010 (EST)
-:Actually, it's because of his recovery that Link is bottom tier and has such poor matchups. If he had the Clawshot longer, Link can avoid gimps. If Link had better air speed and his Spin Attack is not such crap, Link can't be as edge-guarded. In SSB64 it is also the reason why Link is 2nd last. It has always been because of the recovery that make Link bottom tier. Only in Melee this did not happen. [[User:Zeldasmash|Zeldasmash]] ([[User talk:Zeldasmash|talk]]) 23:02, 18 December 2010 (EST)
-::Yeah, so in this case, Link's matchups are mostly bad. Also Link is sort of easy to combo and kind of slow and those could be other reasons why he's bottom tier in the 1st and 3rd smash game. [[User:Doc King|Doc King]] ([[User talk:Doc King|talk]]) 23:07, 18 December 2010 (EST)
-:::Yeah. But those aren't severe (well in some cases) but did not you see Link's Attribute page in Link SSBB and his info in Link SSB. [[User:Zeldasmash|Zeldasmash]] ([[User talk:Zeldasmash|talk]]) 23:10, 18 December 2010 (EST)
-::::Well, characters who have a good gimping game like MK, D3, Sheik, and Puff are pretty much bad matchups for Link (Don't know about puff though, although not so great) and characters who are large and can't gimp and recover well have a bad matchup against Link like Bowser and Ganon. [[User:Doc King|Doc King]] ([[User talk:Doc King|talk]]) 23:18, 18 December 2010 (EST)
-:::::Bowser is a 50:50. Ganon 60:40. Notice the difference? [[User:Zeldasmash|Zeldasmash]] ([[User talk:Zeldasmash|talk]]) 23:22, 18 December 2010 (EST)
-::::::Oh by the way, you know SSF2 right? Check this out. http://smashflashbackroom.englishboards.com/t97-official-tier-list-for-version-06?highlight=tier+list [[User:Zeldasmash|Zeldasmash]] ([[User talk:Zeldasmash|talk]]) 23:34, 18 December 2010 (EST)
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