Editing User talk:Toomai/Cloneosity

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I'd also argue instead of having a special penalty for a custom matching a default move, you simply consider whether a character's custom move can be considered a clone of any of the parent's special variants. I don but with a stricter standard, since custom moves are already generally "clones" of the default move. Lucina would simply be 100% clone in SSB4 since all her specials default or custom match, while Lucas is penalized for Ness's Lucas-customs but not for Ness's other customs.
I'd also argue instead of having a special penalty for a custom matching a default move, you simply consider whether a character's custom move can be considered a clone of any of the parent's special variants. I don but with a stricter standard, since custom moves are already generally "clones" of the default move. Lucina would simply be 100% clone in SSB4 since all her specials default or custom match, while Lucas is penalized for Ness's Lucas-customs but not for Ness's other customs.


This could also apply to other attributes such as tether grabs, wall jump, etc. getting less weight than other moves. Then you don't have the issue of some characters being over 100%. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:65.191.240.42|65.191.240.42]] ([[User talk:65.191.240.42|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/65.191.240.42|contribs]]) 04:34, 7 March 2019</small>
This could also apply to other attributes such as tether grabs, wall jump, etc. getting less weight than other moves. Then you don't have the issue of some characters being over 100%. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:65.191.240.42|65.191.240.42]] ([[User talk:65.191.240.42|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/65.191.240.42|contribs]]) 04:34, 7 March 2019‎</small>
:This is not a bad idea; the only major issue I can see is that a DLC clone doesn't work nicely with it (Lucas gets a penalty on his "NS default", but where does he get his "NS custom 1" and "NS custom 2" scores from?). I'll think about it. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Obfuscating 06:57, 7 March 2019 (EST)  
:This is not a bad idea; the only major issue I can see is that a DLC clone doesn't work nicely with it (Lucas gets a penalty on his "NS default", but where does he get his "NS custom 1" and "NS custom 2" scores from?). I'll think about it. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Obfuscating 06:57, 7 March 2019 (EST)  


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: I think a good step to figure out this dilemma is to also set a criteria of what moves we should take into consideration as cloned from an unrelated character. For example in Smash Ultamite Ganondorf's Smash attacks are borrowed from Ike and Cloud, should we include Smash Attacks in this umbrella or just spacial moves. Granted I don't play competitively but I want to help in any way I can as I am very intrigued by the creation of move sets and your analysis.  [[User:Skibot99|Skibot99]] ([[User talk:Skibot99|talk]]) 21:15, March 20, 2019 (EDT)
: I think a good step to figure out this dilemma is to also set a criteria of what moves we should take into consideration as cloned from an unrelated character. For example in Smash Ultamite Ganondorf's Smash attacks are borrowed from Ike and Cloud, should we include Smash Attacks in this umbrella or just spacial moves. Granted I don't play competitively but I want to help in any way I can as I am very intrigued by the creation of move sets and your analysis.  [[User:Skibot99|Skibot99]] ([[User talk:Skibot99|talk]]) 21:15, March 20, 2019 (EDT)
:::If a rule you have is inconsistent, it's better off removed. [[User:SammyTFM|SammyTFM]] ([[User talk:SammyTFM|talk]]) 18:32, March 21, 2019 (EDT)
:::If a rule you have is inconsistent, it's better off removed. [[User:SammyTFM|SammyTFM]] ([[User talk:SammyTFM|talk]]) 18:32, March 21, 2019 (EDT)
::::It's better to try and fix things before removing them. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Producer 06:55, March 28, 2019 (EDT)
::::It's better to try and fix things before removing them. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Producer 06:55, March 28, 2019 (EDT)
Coming back to this did you ever think of a solution Toomai? [[User:Skibot99|Skibot99]] ([[User talk:Skibot99|talk]]) 09:05, June 2, 2021 (EDT)


== A way to incorporate physical attributes and different damage into the chart ==
== A way to incorporate physical attributes and different damage into the chart ==
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==Limbo==
==Limbo==
I know it's too early to give any definitive answer to Pyra and Mythra since we haven't seen their movesets in full, but I like to think ahead. From what we see so far, all of their attacks have the same animations except for their specials. If we consider them sharing a down special since that's likely how they transform into each other, they share 20/24 moves, roughly 83%, right in limbo range. In that case, would this be considered full clone or semi-clone? Even if one of their normals turns out to be different or if Mythra's foresight counts to subtract from the score, it's still probably a good idea to assign the limbo percentages to one of the classifications. [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 16:47, February 21, 2021 (EST)
I know it's too early to give any definitive answer to Pyra and Mythra since we haven't seen their movesets in full, but I like to think ahead. From what we see so far, all of their attacks have the same animations except for their specials. If we consider them sharing a down special since that's likely how they transform into each other, they share 20/24 moves, roughly 83%, right in limbo range. In that case, would this be considered full clone or semi-clone? Even if one of their normals turns out to be different or if Mythra's foresight counts to subtract from the score, it's still probably a good idea to assign the limbo percentages to one of the classifications. [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 16:47, February 21, 2021 (EST)
:Scratch the question and turn it into a suggestion. The 80-85% range should count as semiclone based on comments on reddit and gamefaqs calling Pyra and Mythra semiclones, solidifying a consensus that that percentage is a semiclone tier. The 25-30% range should be non-clone because you erroneously rated melee Jigglypuff's jab as different in melee but the same in the original despite neither Jigglypuff nor Kirby getting a new jab, making her actual score about 6/23 or 26%. Again, even if Mythra's Foresight subtracts from her score or if there's something I'm missing about Jigglypuff's jab in melee, the limbo percentages should definitely be placed into actual categories for future proofing. [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 18:14, February 21, 2021 (EST)
::Going to just remind you to analyze Pyra and Mythra to see if the limbo categories need to be placed into actual categories. From what I can tell, their only different moves are all specials besides down special and including final smash, or 20/24, or 83.3%
I just found out that Incineroar and King K. Rool share their down smash, down air, neutral air, forward air, up throw, all of their floor/edge attacks, and if you really want to get technical both of their down specials are counters (though Incineroar's does charge up his attacks, so 0.5). They technically share 6.5/24, or 27.1% of their moveset, right in the middle of Limbo II. I think it would be worth analyzing K Rool and Incineroar to place Limbo II into an actual category (I'm personally thinking non-clone, but you may or may not have a different opinion). [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 15:13, March 17, 2021 (EDT)
== About Characters With More Than One Clone ==
I don't think another clone should be used to calculate how similar a move is between one clone and their parent. I find the data to be more accurate if it's purely between one clone and the parent like the charts suggest. For example, Dr. Mario's Down Special in Smash 4 and Ultimate wouldn’t be cloned from Mario (although Mario had the same Down Special in Melee). Young Link's Down Special in Ultimate would be a half-cloned move of Link's, in addition to other moves like his grab, third hit of neutral attack, and Final Smash not being cloned. This would barely push him as a semi-clone like with Pyra and Mythra. The reason I suggest this is because clones are not designed with other clones of the same character in mind (Dr. Mario wasn’t designed to be similar to Luigi, nor was Toon Link designed just to be similar to Young Link). [[User:Diddy Kongstar|Diddy Kongstar]] ([[User talk:Diddy Kongstar|talk]]) 00:50, April 16, 2021 (EDT)
:I initially disagreed with comparing to third characters too, but it's unfortunately necessary when they share so many moves with said third character. Although Young Link would indeed be a semi-clone if the comparison was only with Link, you have to remember that literally every move Young Link has that's different from Link is something Toon Link has, with the sole exception of Young Link having a rapid jab. Also, considering how borderline Young Link is in either case, it would just be better to not have a see also link on the top of every clone's page. Besides Richter/Daisy/Dark Samus/maybe Dark Pit, even the cloniest of clones have drastically different playstyles, so there's no need to call special attention. [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 04:15, April 16, 2021 (EDT)
It is indeed probably true that "Dr. Mario wasn’t designed to be similar to Luigi", but this isn't really about design ''intent''. This is about determining what parts of a character are unique, and what parts were simply copied from elsewhere to save time (as saving time is the reason clones are the way they are). Because of this, it is sometimes necessary to make a judgement call that a move was copied from somewhere other than the direct parent. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[File:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Xanthic 07:39, April 16, 2021 (EDT)
== Dr. Mario inconsistency ==
In the ''SSB4'' section, you count Dr. Mario's down special as a whole point on the grounds of it being cloned from a third, related character: Luigi. However, you don't count his down aerial as a cloned move; even though the aforementioned logic applies there and both Dr. Mario and Luigi's dairs share the same genealogy as clones of Mario's pre-''Brawl'' dair. Is this just an oversight, or is there a reason you treated the move as such? [[User:ShootingStar7X|ShootingStar7X]] ([[User talk:ShootingStar7X|talk]]) 15:16, May 22, 2022 (EDT)

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