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| Lastly, Up Special. Now, in Brawl, these moves are pretty similar. Fox's does one hit and has slower startup, whereas Wolf's does multiple and starts much quicker. However, Wolf Flash was tweaked a decent bit in Smash Ultimate, to the point where labeling them as 1:1 simply feels inaccurate. Fox's travels much further, in a straight line, and always the same distance uninterrupted. Wolf's doesn't travel nearly as far in general, travels further vertically compared to horizontally, and unlike Fox, Wolf carries much more momentum after the move ends. Fox's also still deals one hit, whereas Wolf's deals multiple, and is more reliably used as a kill move. They are similar in name and the fact that they're both multidirectional attacks. In-game, however, they're much more different from a mechanical standpoint. 1:1 isn't an accurate comparison between the two. Maybe 0.5 would be better, since there's more differences. -[[User:AlphaSSB|AlphaSSB]] ([[User talk:AlphaSSB|talk]]) 15:10, 20 February 2019 (EST) | | Lastly, Up Special. Now, in Brawl, these moves are pretty similar. Fox's does one hit and has slower startup, whereas Wolf's does multiple and starts much quicker. However, Wolf Flash was tweaked a decent bit in Smash Ultimate, to the point where labeling them as 1:1 simply feels inaccurate. Fox's travels much further, in a straight line, and always the same distance uninterrupted. Wolf's doesn't travel nearly as far in general, travels further vertically compared to horizontally, and unlike Fox, Wolf carries much more momentum after the move ends. Fox's also still deals one hit, whereas Wolf's deals multiple, and is more reliably used as a kill move. They are similar in name and the fact that they're both multidirectional attacks. In-game, however, they're much more different from a mechanical standpoint. 1:1 isn't an accurate comparison between the two. Maybe 0.5 would be better, since there's more differences. -[[User:AlphaSSB|AlphaSSB]] ([[User talk:AlphaSSB|talk]]) 15:10, 20 February 2019 (EST) |
| :I respect your opinion but won't budge on mine. Fox in SSB4 has custom specials that all do the same thing as Wolf's (powerful single-shot blaster, diagonal dash without damaging afterimages with sweetspot at end, multi-hit non-fire dash with altered distance), and custom specials are pretty much by definition clones of the default special (identical animation but can differ in hitboxes and number tweaks to properties). So if Fox can use Wolf's specials (or at least extremely similar versions of them), they really can't be all that different. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Obfuscating 06:57, 7 March 2019 (EST)
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| == Pseudo-Clone range too short? == | | == Pseudo-Clone range too short? == |
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| I feel that 30-45% is too small of a section. I understand why Semi-Clones are so big but I feel the Pseudo-Clone section should have as much range as a full clone at 20% (Limbo doesn't really count as a category in my eyes, It's just acknowledging there are no characters at the moment with a 80-85% range). So I propose extending the range of Pseudo-Clone to 25%-45%. I feel that sharing less than 1/4 of your moves is a better threshold than 3/10 to be considering a "unique" character. [[User:Skibot99|Skibot99]] ([[User talk:Skibot99|talk]]) 14:34, 6 March 2019 (EST) | | I feel that 30-45% is too small of a section. I understand why Semi-Clones are so big but I feel the Pseudo-Clone section should have as much range as a full clone at 20% (Limbo doesn't really count as a category in my eyes, It's just acknowledging there are no characters at the moment with a 80-85% range). So I propose extending the range of Pseudo-Clone to 25%-45%. I feel that sharing less than 1/4 of your moves is a better threshold than 3/10 to be considering a "unique" character. [[User:Skibot99|Skibot99]] ([[User talk:Skibot99|talk]]) 14:34, 6 March 2019 (EST) |
| :You have reminded me that I forgot to put a "Limbo II" section in the 25%-30% zone, which means the same thing as the 80%-85% one: there are no characters in this range so we don't know which section it should count as yet. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Obfuscating 06:57, 7 March 2019 (EST)
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| ::That makes things look more balanced though it’s making me wonder if there needs to be a third limbo section for 45-50%. But then I realized that Ganondorf is at exactly 50% which makes me wonder what do we do if a character is right on a line? [[User:Skibot99|Skibot99]] ([[User talk:Skibot99|talk]]) 08:27, 7 March 2019 (EST)
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| :::Yeah there being someone on the line is why I didn't put one there, and a range smaller than 5% I don't really want to make a new section for.
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| :::If a future character puts themselves perfectly on a line, ideally the line will be moved as little as possible to accomodate them; the line would go towards the bigger gap between the new character and the next character in either direction. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Quiet 06:49, 8 March 2019 (EST)
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| == Accommodating custom moves for comparison across titles == | | == Accommodating custom moves for comparison across titles == |
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| I'd also argue instead of having a special penalty for a custom matching a default move, you simply consider whether a character's custom move can be considered a clone of any of the parent's special variants. I don but with a stricter standard, since custom moves are already generally "clones" of the default move. Lucina would simply be 100% clone in SSB4 since all her specials default or custom match, while Lucas is penalized for Ness's Lucas-customs but not for Ness's other customs. | | I'd also argue instead of having a special penalty for a custom matching a default move, you simply consider whether a character's custom move can be considered a clone of any of the parent's special variants. I don but with a stricter standard, since custom moves are already generally "clones" of the default move. Lucina would simply be 100% clone in SSB4 since all her specials default or custom match, while Lucas is penalized for Ness's Lucas-customs but not for Ness's other customs. |
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| This could also apply to other attributes such as tether grabs, wall jump, etc. getting less weight than other moves. Then you don't have the issue of some characters being over 100%. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:65.191.240.42|65.191.240.42]] ([[User talk:65.191.240.42|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/65.191.240.42|contribs]]) 04:34, 7 March 2019</small> | | This could also apply to other attributes such as tether grabs, wall jump, etc. getting less weight than other moves. Then you don't have the issue of some characters being over 100%. |
| :This is not a bad idea; the only major issue I can see is that a DLC clone doesn't work nicely with it (Lucas gets a penalty on his "NS default", but where does he get his "NS custom 1" and "NS custom 2" scores from?). I'll think about it. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Obfuscating 06:57, 7 March 2019 (EST)
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| ::Perhaps you could just keep the ?/24 scale for Roy and Lucas due to them lacking custom specials while the characters on the base roster use this new scale proposed. [[User:Skibot99|Skibot99]] ([[User talk:Skibot99|talk]]) 08:33, 7 March 2019 (EST)
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| :::I was making a reply to this message when I looked back over my numbers to discover that I applied my rules incorrectly for Lucina and Dark Pit; I must have copy-pasted from Lucas and missed fixing it later on. So I'm going to fix that right now, and the oddity will vanish. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Quiet 06:49, 8 March 2019 (EST)
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| == Young Link and Toon Link scores too high? ==
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| In your column comparing Captain Falcon to Samus in Smash 64 you deducted points as Captain Falcon holds items in the opposite hand of Samus. Shouldn't this argument also apply to Young Link and Toon Link in Smash Ultimate? As in Ultimate Adult Link is now right handed and this likely means even more animations are different as it won't just effect items but also how they swing the sword [[User:Skibot99|Skibot99]] ([[User talk:Skibot99|talk]]) 13:09, March 14, 2019 (EDT)
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| :You're not wholly wrong, but you're taking kind of a shallow view of it. My comment on the Samus/Falcon pair in SSB64 is to say "These characters have a major difference that resulted in a lot of necessary extra decloning work". Or to put it another way, SSB64 Falcon could theoretically have used mirrored animations of Samus for his items, but he has fully unique ones instead. The SSBU Link/Young Link pair is not like this; the majority of YL's animations are fairly clearly mostly copy-paste-mirror operations on Link's, which wouldn't have taken more than a minute or two of effort per animation (maybe even less depending on the dev tools; don't forget that SSBU can mirror animations by itself). [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Free 22:34, March 19, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::I understand thank you for clarifying what that penalty meant. Sorry if my comment came across as rude. I have only played a bit of Ultamite and happened to notice the Links had different dominate hands [[User:Skibot99|Skibot99]] ([[User talk:Skibot99|talk]]) 09:19, March 20, 2019 (EDT)
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| == Cross-Game Cloneosity, what? ==
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| You gave Dark Pit an 0.5 on his Final Smash because ''Zelda had it in Smash 4.'' Zelda isn't even relevant to Dark Pit, and ''that Final Smash isn't even in Ultimate.''
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| Not to mention you contradict this logic by saying Light Arrow isn't relevant to Link or Young Link. And you're right. Light Arrow is also from another Smash Game. ''So this logic should be the same for Dark Pit.''
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| If you're focusing on comparing clones in Ultimate, ''please'' don't bring characters from the other games into the case, they are completely irrelevant. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:104.225.177.90|104.225.177.90]] ([[User talk:104.225.177.90|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/104.225.177.90|contribs]]) 11:31, March 19, 2019 (EDT)</small>
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| ::Please sign your name next time with four ~'s.
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| ::Though you do have a point, it's kind of weird. Other games shouldn't have an effect on the score. [[User:SammyTFM|SammyTFM]] ([[User talk:SammyTFM|talk]]) 17:28, March 19, 2019 (EDT)
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| :As explained in an above section, I'm not all that pleased with either way of calling Dark Pit's FS in SSBU: it's pretty blatantly a cloned move, but it also isn't shared by any other characters in the game. You can say that other games shouldn't matter, but I don't think that's a valid point of view, because every veteran starts with their previous moveset by default and thus naturally inherits all their old moves, cloned or not. The question is whether they should still count as cloned if their parent goes in their own direction, which as said above there's no real good answer for.
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| :You're right that I didn't treat Triforce Slash like this. I don't quite remember why actually. Maybe it's partly because Young Link never had a FS before, and so it's unclear whether he cloned it from Toon Link, SSB4 Link, or pre-changed SSBU Link. I do agree it should at least be consistent, so for now I'll set both Triforce Slashes to 0.5 like Dark Pit's. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Free 22:34, March 19, 2019 (EDT)
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| :: As a random suggestion maybe make the score .25 if cloned from a previous game. That way it's less damning on their score while still acknowledging the moves cloned origins. [[User:Skibot99|Skibot99]] ([[User talk:Skibot99|talk]]) 09:21, March 20, 2019 (EDT)
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| :By following that logic Toomai, that would mean Luigi would keep his Luigi Cyclone at an 0.5 because "it used to be Mario's", and this would apply to several other moves too. It's outrageous. If we made this comparison to every single fighter in the game, they would all most definitely be some level of clone. There IS a simple answer - keep those moves at a 0. If it's different, it's a 0. Don't compare one clone to the entire cast, Compare them to their parent character and their current moveset in each game. If the parent character gets a change, then the previously cloned move essentially belongs to that fighter now. If that's not a simple answer then I don't know what is. [[User:SammyTFM|SammyTFM]] ([[User talk:SammyTFM|talk]]) 15:05, March 20, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::That's a ''simple'' answer but that doesn't automatically make it the ''correct'' answer. As discussed in an above section, I haven't yet figured out a good, consistent-across-everything way to deal with moves that are "historically cloned". Skibot99's straight multiplier idea is not a bad start but I need to consider the matter more deeply to see if more nuance is necessary. For example: Does it matter if the clone's version of the move changed a bit in the same game the parent lost it? Should such a score effect only apply once, or once per each game? Should the rate be different between normal attacks and special moves (since specials are naturally higher-effort)? Treating all characters in a per-game vacuum is one way to do it but I'm strongly of the opinion that it's not accurate.
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| ::Also I'm not comparing clones to "the entire cast". There are very few cases where it's the correct call to say a move is cloned from a non-parent, and SSB4 Dark Pit's FS is one of them. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Bold 20:06, March 20, 2019 (EDT)
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| : I think a good step to figure out this dilemma is to also set a criteria of what moves we should take into consideration as cloned from an unrelated character. For example in Smash Ultamite Ganondorf's Smash attacks are borrowed from Ike and Cloud, should we include Smash Attacks in this umbrella or just spacial moves. Granted I don't play competitively but I want to help in any way I can as I am very intrigued by the creation of move sets and your analysis. [[User:Skibot99|Skibot99]] ([[User talk:Skibot99|talk]]) 21:15, March 20, 2019 (EDT)
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| :::If a rule you have is inconsistent, it's better off removed. [[User:SammyTFM|SammyTFM]] ([[User talk:SammyTFM|talk]]) 18:32, March 21, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::::It's better to try and fix things before removing them. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Producer 06:55, March 28, 2019 (EDT)
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| Coming back to this did you ever think of a solution Toomai? [[User:Skibot99|Skibot99]] ([[User talk:Skibot99|talk]]) 09:05, June 2, 2021 (EDT)
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| == A way to incorporate physical attributes and different damage into the chart ==
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| I know I’m not alone when saying that SSBU Ganondorf and SSB4 Luigi are arguably psudeo-clones. They’re both pretty much on the line between psudeo- and semi- currently, but I feel like this is partly because different physical attributes (i.e. speed and weight) are completely ignored in this process. While I do agree that changing said pieces of data is much easier than chnging an animation, I don’t believe that completely ignoring them in determining what type of clone they are really is. I honestly feel like that things such as slight damage/knockback differences may have to count as well (I suggested something similar prior to creating this account, so as to knock Lucina and Falco down to less of a clone of Dark Pit). While they are definitely not as difficult as changing an animation, they should still be minimally counted.
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| *For every point of weight that is different, remove 0.1% from that characters’ total cloneosity; and for every point in running, walking, air, and falling speed, as well as traction, acceleration, nd anything wlse I may have missed, that is different, remove 0.01% from their total cloneosity. While these differences are small, this should knock down Ganondorf, who would now be below 50%, and thus a contender for psudeo-clone. For Dr. Mario, he would be unaffected, as all of his “different” stats are actually permanent spirits (significantly reducing the workload to “change” them), and thus is exempt from having percentage points docked, and thus safely remains a full clone
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| *For every percent in damage that is different, remove 0.01 points from said move being cloned. This should drop Lucina and Falco down to being less of a clone than Dark Pit. Ultimately, this portion may be useless in the end, and Lucina and Falco are still full clones with this in mind, but it’s been bothering me to list Dark Pit, who only has three moves with any difference at all, as less of a clone han two characters eith different damage outputs for eah of their moves.
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| *Knockback is admittedly hard to measure, and could be exempt from docking percentages or points from each move or character. Additionally, things such as elemental effects are too minor to be counted, and are also exempt.
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| Does this sound like a decent idea? I apologize for bringing this up again, but I do believe that Ganondorf really should not qualify as a semi-clone anymore, and that Luigi hasn’t since Smash 4. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 17:30, March 26, 2019 (EDT)
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| :The entire point of this page and process is to come to a result that does not care what anyone ''wants'' the result to be. Therefore, I am not making any modification based on people saying "well if you do this, then X would move from Q to R". [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Producer 06:55, March 28, 2019 (EDT)
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| == Melee Jigglypuff ==
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| I agree with most of your assessment on Jigglypuff in Melee, but something doesn't quite add up. In ''Smash 64'', you rated Neutral as 2/3 and B-throw as 1, yet you rated both moves as 0 in ''Melee'' even though they really didn't change much, certainly not enough to be truly decloned (I could maybe understand for Neutral, since they swapped the order of jab 1 and 2 for Jiggs, but the animations are otherwise practically identical imo).
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| If you were to give those two attacks their ''Smash 64'' ratings, Jigglypuff's score would bump up to 7.292/23, or 31.7% - well within pseudo-clone status. Even if you left Neutral at 0, the score would be 6.625/23, or 28.8%, on the upper end of Limbo II. Of course, that would bring up the issue of having to analyze Jiggs' clone status in the later games, but from what I can tell it really doesn't change much.
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| Here's my personal analysis from ''Brawl'' for comparison (still within pseudo-clone status at 30.8%, Limbo II at 28.1% if you leave Neutral at 0):
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| {|class="wikitable"
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| !colspan="2"|Pair
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| !Neutral!!F-tilt!!U-tilt!!D-tilt!!Dash!!F-smash!!U-smash!!D-smash!!N-air!!F-air!!B-air!!U-air!!D-air!!Pummel!!F-throw!!B-throw!!U-throw!!D-throw!!N-special!!S-special!!U-special!!D-special!!Final Smash!!{{rollover|Floor/edge|Floor front, floor back, floor trip, edge fast, edge slow (out of 1.25)|y}}!!Other!!Total!!%
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| |{{head|Jigglypuff|g=SSBB|s=24x24px}}||{{head|Kirby|g=SSBB|s=18x18px}}
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| |2/3||1||1||0||0||1||0||1||0||0||0||0||1||0||0||1||0||0||0||0||0||0||0||0.125, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25||-0.25
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| |7.542/24.25||30.8%
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| |}
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| [[User:B2jammer|b2jammer]] ([[User talk:B2jammer|talk]]) 17:41, June 30, 2019 (EDT)
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| Your thoughts Toonami? [[User:Skibot99|Skibot99]] ([[User talk:Skibot99|talk]]) 08:14, March 3, 2020 (EST)
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| ==Terry==
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| Terry shares his up tilt, forward tilt, down tilt, up smash, forward air, back air, and down air with Ryu and Ken, or 7/24 (29.1%). Considering this falls into the upper edge of the limbo II category, should the psuedo-clone percentage be expanded to fit in Terry? It's a ridiculously tiny percentage as is (15%, compared to 35% for semi-clones and 25% for full clones).
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| Also, on a side note, I noticed that a couple moves that are clearly different, such as Young/Toon Link's down special, Ganondorf's up tilt, and Roy's Final Smash are listed as exactly the same move as their bade counterpart. [[Special:Contributions/72.203.118.154|72.203.118.154]] 13:48, January 11, 2020 (EST)
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| :Yes I have not looked at Terry yet, I should do that at some point.
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| :You did a math error, the clone range of 85%-100% is only 15%, not 25%.
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| :If you think that Ganondorf's up tilt is not cloned I don't know what to tell you. It is a very clear example of a cloned move, with its only non-hitbox difference being "is carried out at a different speed". The Link bombs and Roy's FS I can see your viewpoint with, but I stand by my opinions that they are not different enough to be worth debating whether to give them a 0.5. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Producer 14:59, January 11, 2020 (EST)
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| ::I've done Terry. Because of how his neutrals/tilts don't have the tap/hold mechanic, and he has completely unique gimmicks and extra moves, he came out to 24.3%: not a clone, very slightly below SSBM Jigglypuff. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Dispenser 16:36, January 11, 2020 (EST)
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| ==Ganondorf and Falco in Ultimate==
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| I decided to analyze the moves that are listed as similar on your chart but different on the [[Clone]] page. Mathematically, they would be psuedo-clones (as anything less than half shared is 45.83%) if we only look at the mainspace page, but they are listed as semi-clones.
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| Ganondorf up tilt: Despite my earlier claim, they do share pretty much the same animation. As much as I consider it different gameplay-wise, it's similar animation wise.
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| Ganondorf forward throw: Captain Falcon faces the screen, Ganondorf faces away from the screen. This was shared between the two of them in SSB4, and all of their other throws have them face the same direction (though up throw has a different animation). There was definitely an intention to declone Ganondorf with his forward throw, and the animation definitely isn't mirrored like Young Link's are.
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| Falco forward tilt: Could go either way. They both do a roundhouse kick, but their arm motions are completely different. Unlike Ganondorf and Captain Falcon's forward throws, this was also the case in SSB4 (not sure about Brawl), so maybe this is just the same move?
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| Falco town tilt: Same as Fox's. I don't know why this was listed as different.
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| Even disregarding Ganondorf's controversial up tilt, his forward throw is definitely intended to animate differently, which is enough to put him into psuedo-clone status. For Falco, it depends on if you consider the arm motions from his forward tilt enough to be a different move. However, their down tilts should definitely not be listed as different. Thank you and have a nice day. [[Special:Contributions/72.203.118.154|72.203.118.154]] 21:18, February 18, 2020 (EST)
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| == Mii Fighters? ==
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| It's very obvious that the Mii Fighters all take inspiration from other characters on the roster. But I think the most obvious is with Mii Gunner. They clearly have moves taken from Fox and more notably Samus. Do you think they're worth digging into for comparison?
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| [[User:Skibot99|Skibot99]] ([[User talk:Skibot99|talk]]) 08:17, March 3, 2020 (EST)
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| == Inconsistencies With “Cloned” and “Unique” Moves ==
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| I have noticed some inconsistencies with certain clone ranks for moves. For Jigglypuff, the 64 chart says it’s Neutral Attack (2/3), Down Tilt, and Back Throw are cloned from Kirby, but aren’t in Melee’s despite both sharing their similar attacks from 64. Jigglypuff’s Pummel in Melee is also similar to Kirby’s, with Ultimate being the first game to give Jigglypuff a different Pummel. For Luigi in Melee and Brawl, the charts say his Down Tilt is cloned from Mario, but not in Smash 4 and Ultimate despite it being the same attack. Also, why is Luigi’s Up Tilt in Ultimate considered a cloned move when all that changed was the way Luigi faces during the move? [[User:Diddy Kongstar|Diddy Kongstar]] ([[User talk:Diddy Kongstar|talk]]) 18:26, August 13, 2020 (EDT)
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| == Redrawing the lines ==
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| I'm sure you get a million suggestions about things like this, but I've noticed that the lines used to denote each section are largely arbitrary, skipping the 1st, 4th, <s>and 5th</s> largest gaps between characters <s>yet utilizing the 6th largest</s>. If one instead uses all six, it miraculously creates 3 very small limbo categories - the three of which contain a total of 11 characters - right around the quartile markers. Like, within 3.5% on all of them. ''I might not be describing this well so I've pictured it below, though this takes up a lot of space so you can remove it if necessary.'' I think this definition of drawing a rough line at each quartile would better establish the "gray area" nature of this sort of thing instead of drawing such hard lines, while at the same time giving more reasoning to the lines through more uniform use of character gaps. [[User:Grapevine|Grapevine]] ([[User talk:Grapevine|talk]]) 04:30, February 4, 2021 (EST)
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| {|class="wikitable" width="100%" style="margin:0;text-align:center"
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| !
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| !width="21.5%"|Non-clone
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| !width=" 7%"|~25%
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| !width=" 18%"|Pseudo-clone
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| !width=" 7%"|~50%
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| !width=" 18%"|Semi-clone
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| !width=" 7%"|~75%
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| !width="21.5%"|Clone
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| |-
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| |style="background:#ff0000"|{{head|Falco|g=SSBM|s=20x20px}}
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| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,0,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,0,0,0.25) 99%,rgba(255,0,0,1.0) 100%)"|100.0%
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| |style="background:#ff0000"|{{head|Lucina|g=SSB4|s=20x20px}}
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| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,0,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,0,0,0.25) 99%,rgba(255,0,0,1.0) 100%)"|100.0%
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| |style="background:#ff00ff"|{{head|Daisy|g=SSBU|s=20x20px}}
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| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,0,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,0,0,0.25) 99%,rgba(255,0,0,1.0) 100%)"|100.0%
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| |style="background:#ff00ff"|{{head|Dark Samus|g=SSBU|s=20x20px}}
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| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,0,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,0,0,0.25) 99%,rgba(255,0,0,1.0) 100%)"|100.0%
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| |-
| |
| |style="background:#ff00ff"|{{head|Lucina|g=SSBU|s=20x20px}}
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| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,0,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,0,0,0.25) 99%,rgba(255,0,0,1.0) 100%)"|100.0%
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| |-
| |
| |style="background:#ff00ff"|{{head|Richter|g=SSBU|s=20x20px}}
| |
| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,0,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,0,0,0.25) 99%,rgba(255,0,0,1.0) 100%)"|100.0%
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| |-
| |
| |style="background:#ff0000"|{{head|Dr. Mario|g=SSBM|s=20x20px}}
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| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,5,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,5,0,0.25) 97.9%,rgba(255,5,0,1.0) 98.9%,transparent 98.9%,transparent 100%)"|98.9%
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| |-
| |
| |style="background:#ff0000"|{{head|Young Link|g=SSBM|s=20x20px}}
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| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,5,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,5,0,0.25) 97.9%,rgba(255,5,0,1.0) 98.9%,transparent 98.9%,transparent 100%)"|98.9%
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| |-
| |
| |style="background:#ff0000"|{{head|Dark Pit|g=SSB4|s=20x20px}}
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| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,10,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,10,0,0.25) 96.9%,rgba(255,10,0,1.0) 97.9%,transparent 97.9%,transparent 100%)"|97.9%
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| |-
| |
| |style="background:#ff00ff"|{{head|Dark Pit|g=SSBU|s=20x20px}}
| |
| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,10,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,10,0,0.25) 96.9%,rgba(255,10,0,1.0) 97.9%,transparent 97.9%,transparent 100%)"|97.9%
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| |-
| |
| |style="background:#ff0000"|{{head|Roy|g=SSBM|s=20x20px}}
| |
| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,11,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,11,0,0.25) 96.8%,rgba(255,11,0,1.0) 97.8%,transparent 97.8%,transparent 100%)"|97.8%
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| |-
| |
| |style="background:#ff0000"|{{head|Dr. Mario|g=SSB4|s=20x20px}}
| |
| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,21,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,21,0,0.25) 94.8%,rgba(255,21,0,1.0) 95.8%,transparent 95.8%,transparent 100%)"|95.8%
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| |-
| |
| |style="background:#ffff00"|{{head|Luigi|g=SSB|s=20x20px}}
| |
| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,26,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,26,0,0.25) 93.7%,rgba(255,26,0,1.0) 94.7%,transparent 94.7%,transparent 100%)"|94.7%
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| |-
| |
| |style="background:#ff0000"|{{head|Pichu|g=SSBM|s=20x20px}}
| |
| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,27,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,27,0,0.25) 93.6%,rgba(255,27,0,1.0) 94.6%,transparent 94.6%,transparent 100%)"|94.6%
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| |-
| |
| |style="background:#ff00ff"|{{head|Chrom|g=SSBU|s=20x20px}}
| |
| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,31,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,31,0,0.25) 92.8%,rgba(255,31,0,1.0) 93.8%,transparent 93.8%,transparent 100%)"|93.8%
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| |-
| |
| |style="background:#ff7f00"|{{head|Dr. Mario|g=SSBU|s=20x20px}}
| |
| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,42,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,42,0,0.25) 90.7%,rgba(255,42,0,1.0) 91.7%,transparent 91.7%,transparent 100%)"|91.7%
| |
| |-
| |
| |style="background:#ff0000"|{{head|Ganondorf|g=SSBM|s=20x20px}}
| |
| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,46,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,46,0,0.25) 89.9%,rgba(255,46,0,1.0) 90.9%,transparent 90.9%,transparent 100%)"|90.9%
| |
| |-
| |
| |style="background:#ff7f00"|{{head|Pichu|g=SSBU|s=20x20px}}
| |
| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,50,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,50,0,0.25) 89.1%,rgba(255,50,0,1.0) 90.1%,transparent 90.1%,transparent 100%)"|90.1%
| |
| |-
| |
| |style="background:#ff7f00"|{{head|Young Link|g=SSBU|s=20x20px}}
| |
| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,58,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,58,0,0.25) 87.5%,rgba(255,58,0,1.0) 88.5%,transparent 88.5%,transparent 100%)"|88.5%
| |
| |-
| |
| |colspan=8|
| |
| |-
| |
| |style="background:#00ff00"|{{head|Toon Link|g=SSBB|s=20x20px}}
| |
| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,111,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,111,0,0.25) 77.1%,rgba(255,111,0,1.0) 78.1%,transparent 78.1%,transparent 100%)"|78.1%
| |
| |-
| |
| |style="background:#00ff00"|{{head|Luigi|g=SSBM|s=20x20px}}
| |
| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,118,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,118,0,0.25) 75.8%,rgba(255,118,0,1.0) 76.8%,transparent 76.8%,transparent 100%)"|76.8%
| |
| |-
| |
| |style="background:#00ff00"|{{head|Falco|g=SSBB|s=20x20px}}
| |
| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,126,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,126,0,0.25) 74.3%,rgba(255,126,0,1.0) 75.3%,transparent 75.3%,transparent 100%)"|75.3%
| |
| |-
| |
| |style="background:#00ff00"|{{head|Roy|g=SSB4|s=20x20px}}
| |
| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,127,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,127,0,0.25) 74.0%,rgba(255,127,0,1.0) 75.0%,transparent 75.0%,transparent 100%)"|75.0%
| |
| |-
| |
| |style="background:#00ff00"|{{head|Roy|g=SSBU|s=20x20px}}
| |
| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,127,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,127,0,0.25) 74.0%,rgba(255,127,0,1.0) 75.0%,transparent 75.0%,transparent 100%)"|75.0%
| |
| |-
| |
| |style="background:#ff00ff"|{{head|Ken|g=SSBU|s=20x20px}}
| |
| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,136,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,136,0,0.25) 72.3%,rgba(255,136,0,1.0) 73.3%,transparent 73.3%,transparent 100%)"|73.3%
| |
| |-
| |
| |colspan=8|
| |
| |-
| |
| |style="background:#00ff00"|{{head|Toon Link|g=SSB4|s=20x20px}}
| |
| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,162,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,162,0,0.25) 67.1%,rgba(255,162,0,1.0) 68.1%,transparent 68.1%,transparent 100%)"|68.1%
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| |-
| |
| |style="background:#00ff00"|{{head|Isabelle|g=SSBU|s=20x20px}}
| |
| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,173,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,173,0,0.25) 65.0%,rgba(255,173,0,1.0) 66.0%,transparent 66.0%,transparent 100%)"|66.0%
| |
| |-
| |
| |style="background:#00ff00"|{{head|Luigi|g=SSBB|s=20x20px}}
| |
| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,185,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,185,0,0.25) 62.6%,rgba(255,185,0,1.0) 63.6%,transparent 63.6%,transparent 100%)"|63.6%
| |
| |-
| |
| |style="background:#00ff00"|{{head|Falco|g=SSB4|s=20x20px}}
| |
| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,185,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,185,0,0.25) 62.5%,rgba(255,185,0,1.0) 63.5%,transparent 63.5%,transparent 100%)"|63.5%
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| |-
| |
| |style="background:#00ff00"|{{head|Ganondorf|g=SSBB|s=20x20px}}
| |
| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,191,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,191,0,0.25) 61.5%,rgba(255,191,0,1.0) 62.5%,transparent 62.5%,transparent 100%)"|62.5%
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| |-
| |
| |style="background:#00ff00"|{{head|Toon Link|g=SSBU|s=20x20px}}
| |
| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,196,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,196,0,0.25) 60.5%,rgba(255,196,0,1.0) 61.5%,transparent 61.5%,transparent 100%)"|61.5%
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| |-
| |
| |style="background:#00ff00"|{{head|Jigglypuff|g=SSB|s=20x20px}}
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| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,196,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,196,0,0.25) 60.4%,rgba(255,196,0,1.0) 61.4%,transparent 61.4%,transparent 100%)"|61.4%
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| |-
| |
| |style="background:#00ff00"|{{head|Falco|g=SSBU|s=20x20px}}
| |
| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,199,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,199,0,0.25) 59.9%,rgba(255,199,0,1.0) 60.9%,transparent 60.9%,transparent 100%)"|60.9%
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| |-
| |
| |style="background:#00ff00"|{{head|Ganondorf|g=SSB4|s=20x20px}}
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| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,207,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,207,0,0.25) 58.4%,rgba(255,207,0,1.0) 59.4%,transparent 59.4%,transparent 100%)"|59.4%
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| |-
| |
| |colspan=8|
| |
| |-
| |
| |style="background:#00ff00"|{{head|Luigi|g=SSB4|s=20x20px}}
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| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,240,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,240,0,0.25) 51.8%,rgba(255,240,0,1.0) 52.8%,transparent 52.8%,transparent 100%)"|52.8%
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| |-
| |
| |style="background:#00ff00"|{{head|Ganondorf|g=SSBU|s=20x20px}}
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| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,255,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,255,0,0.25) 49.0%,rgba(255,255,0,1.0) 50.0%,transparent 50.0%,transparent 100%)"|50.0%
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| |-
| |
| |colspan=8|
| |
| |-
| |
| |style="background:#00ff00"|{{head|Luigi|g=SSBU|s=20x20px}}
| |
| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(224,255,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(224,255,0,0.25) 42.9%,rgba(224,255,0,1.0) 43.9%,transparent 43.9%,transparent 100%)"|43.9%
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| |-
| |
| |style="background:#00ff00"|{{head|Lucas|g=SSBB|s=20x20px}}
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| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(215,255,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(215,255,0,0.25) 41.3%,rgba(215,255,0,1.0) 42.3%,transparent 42.3%,transparent 100%)"|42.3%
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| |-
| |
| |style="background:#00ff00"|{{head|Lucas|g=SSB4|s=20x20px}}
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| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(207,255,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(207,255,0,0.25) 39.6%,rgba(207,255,0,1.0) 40.6%,transparent 40.6%,transparent 100%)"|40.6%
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| |-
| |
| |style="background:#00ff00"|{{head|Wolf|g=SSBB|s=20x20px}}
| |
| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(194,255,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(194,255,0,0.25) 37.1%,rgba(194,255,0,1.0) 38.1%,transparent 38.1%,transparent 100%)"|38.1%
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| |-
| |
| |style="background:#00ff00"|{{head|Wolf|g=SSBU|s=20x20px}}
| |
| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(185,255,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(185,255,0,0.25) 35.5%,rgba(185,255,0,1.0) 36.5%,transparent 36.5%,transparent 100%)"|36.5%
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| |-
| |
| |style="background:#00ff00"|{{head|Lucas|g=SSBU|s=20x20px}}
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| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(164,255,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(164,255,0,0.25) 31.3%,rgba(164,255,0,1.0) 32.3%,transparent 32.3%,transparent 100%)"|32.3%
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| |-
| |
| |colspan=8|
| |
| |-
| |
| |style="background:#00ff00"|{{head|Jigglypuff|g=SSBM|s=20x20px}}
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| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(124,255,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(124,255,0,0.25) 23.5%,rgba(124,255,0,1.0) 24.5%,transparent 24.5%,transparent 100%)"|24.5%
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| |-
| |
| |style="background:#00ff00"|{{head|Terry|g=SSBU|s=20x20px}}
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| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(123,255,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(123,255,0,0.25) 23.3%,rgba(123,255,0,1.0) 24.3%,transparent 24.3%,transparent 100%)"|24.3%
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| |-
| |
| |style="background:#00ff00"|{{head|Captain Falcon|g=SSB|s=20x20px}}
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| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(114,255,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(114,255,0,0.25) 21.4%,rgba(114,255,0,1.0) 22.4%,transparent 22.4%,transparent 100%)"|22.4%
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| |-
| |
| |colspan=8|
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| |-
| |
| |style="background:#00ff00"|{{head|Lucario|g=SSB4|s=20x20px}}
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| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(31,255,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(31,255,0,0.25) 5.3%,rgba(31,255,0,1.0) 6.3%,transparent 6.3%,transparent 100%)"|6.3%
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| |-
| |
| |style="background:#00ff00"|{{head|Ike|g=SSBB|s=20x20px}}
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| |colspan=7 style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(21,255,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(21,255,0,0.25) 3.1%,rgba(21,255,0,1.0) 4.1%,transparent 4.1%,transparent 100%)"|4.1%
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| |-
| |
| !
| |
| !width="21.5%"|Non-clone
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| !width=" 7%"|~25%
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| !width=" 18%"|Pseudo-clone
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| !width=" 7%"|~50%
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| !width=" 18%"|Semi-clone
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| !width=" 7%"|~75%
| |
| !width="21.5%"|Clone
| |
| |}
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| :I skipped the 1st-largest gap (between 22.4% and 6.3%) because it's so far down on the scale between two characters that are universally recognized as not being any sort of clone. Had I added more pairs of characters with similarities but are certainly not clones, I'm sure I could fill in this gap until it no longer exists, but that doesn't seem like a good use of effort. I'm not sure where you say I'm using the 6th-largest gap from; gap 6 is between 73.3% and 68.1%, where there is no division. In addition, explicitly creating "limbo" categories that contain characters defeats the entire purpose of this exercise, which is to conclusively determine who is a something-clone and who is not. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Irrepressible 08:02, February 4, 2021 (EST)
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| ::I miscounted that gap as being 6.2%, not 5.2%, my bad. Anyway, I don't think it defeats the purpose, I think it better demonstrates the gray areas that exist as I said (and as you said: "it's a continuous scale, even if the terms are used in a fairly hardline fashion"), as well as actually making clear that this isn't a definitive thing and that people can disagree on the exact lines, but that's just a difference in philosophy I suppose. [[User:Grapevine|Grapevine]] ([[User talk:Grapevine|talk]]) 15:27, February 5, 2021 (EST)
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| == Wow... ==
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| Ok, I just took a look at this page for the first time, and I must say this: we absolutely should NOT be using this page to inform decisions made on the [[clone]] article, or on any other Wiki article, in its current state. Some of the claimed evidence of cloning on this article absolutely reeks of personal bias and subjectivity. This would not be a problem if this page were just treated as any other user subpage, but it's not. You, along with multiple other users, frequently cite this page on discussions regarding clone categorisation on the Wiki, and this therefore makes the presence of these factors a massive issue.
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| So let me start with the first eyebrow raiser: the pairing of Mewtwo and Lucario in Smash 4. Aside from the unexplained absence of this pairing in the Ultimate section (in spite of the 2 shared moves still being present in said game), the reason this pairing is included in the first place is because of their neutral specials, which you may have a point about, and apparently their forward smashes? I guess there's a vacuous similarity between the 2 forward smashes, but ignoring particle effects, the animations of the 2 moves are very different, from start to finish, from the way they lean back to charge, to the way they thrust their hands forward, to the way they pull back again afterwards, nothing is copied.
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| I bring this up for the reason that if you can consider these moves as evidence of cloning, even if those moves alone aren't enough to categorize the characters as such, then that means you can easily decide to take characters that are on the boundary between categories, and fudge the numbers by picking another pair of moves that vaguely resemble each other to push them through it. As for the personal bias side of things, it's pretty clear that the ONLY reason you even bothered to include these moves at all is because you personally see Lucario as an easy target for claims of being a clone, due to him being viewed as a replacement Mewtwo. How do I know this? Well, let's suppose you really DID intend for this page to be exhaustive, and that's why you include even fringe examples like this. Why then, do you not also include the pairing of Incineroar and King K. Rool, for instance? There's a very clear similarity between said characters' forward air, up throw, down smash and potentially even down air. Furthermore since both characters are Ultimate newcomers, and thus developed alongside each other, which is evidence that this isn't merely a coincidence. This is just one possible example, but there are many others. My point is that if you wanted this page to maintain a reasonable standard of objectivity, then if you were to include the pairing of Mewtwo and Lucario, you would also have to include the pairing of Incineroar and King K. Rool, along with every other pairing where a half-decent argument could be made for at least a couple of moves being shared between characters. Your page would, of course, become exceedingly long, but that's a sacrifice you would have to make if you wanted to keep the Mewtwo/Lucario pairing, while also maintaining a reasonable standard of objectivity.
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| I've gone in depth on this one specific example to prove a point: it is abundantly clear to me that this page ought not to be viewed as authoritative in any way, as it is quite clearly just a personal user subpage, like any other, in its style and content. Indeed, you yourself appear to acknowledge this, in your refusal to allow other users to contribute to or modify it in any way, even going so far as to protect the page to prevent other users from doing so. Why then, when addressing issues raised on clone-related articles on the Wiki, do you point to this page as though it were an official Wiki project, rather than a personal user subpage, and why do you not caution other users for doing so themselves?
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| You seem to want to have it both ways. On the one hand, you are quite clear on the fact that this is your page, that you and only you get to decide on its content, and that others are not to edit it. However on the other hand, when it's convenient for you, you treat it as though it is of the same caliber as an official Wiki guideline article, and implicitly encourage other users to do the same. The way I see it, you shouldn't be able to have it both ways. Either you intend for this page to be your personal user subpage, or you intend for it to be a Wiki guideline for handling potential clones on articles. Either it should continue to very clearly be a work of your own mind, moulded by your own opinions and personal biases, or it should be open for other users to contribute to, and moderated the way any other Wiki guideline would be.
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| So, what say you? ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 06:49, February 4, 2021 (EST)
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| :Apparently this got removed in a revision somewhere, but the reason for including a small amount of "pairs that are obviously not clones but are sometimes parroted by the comunity as clones" is to just have some non-clone data. The Mewtwo/Lucario comparison is one of these. You are correct that it's a waste of effort to do too many of them.
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| :The rest of your comment appears to boil down to "I don't trust you to be objective", which I suppose is a fair opinion for anything on the internet, but doesn't really help solve anything. I have made changes in the past when pointed to errors, so it's not like the community is barred from contributing. The reason I have the page locked down is simply because the subject is so contentious (e.g. Luigi or Ganondorf players doing everything in their power to get the "anything-clone" label off their characters) that I think it's for the best if it's not open season to edit. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Irrepressible 08:02, February 4, 2021 (EST)
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| ::I have no problem with you not allowing others to edit the page, but rather my issue lies with you referencing the page on discussions on the Wiki, as though it were a Wiki guideline, when you very much treat it like your own user subpage (which it is), and I'm sure there would be many points of contention among users of the Wiki regarding some of your decisions (I know I have a few). The page is currently in a sort of hybrid state where it gets the benefits of both a user subpage, and a guideline article, which I think is a major issue, since often when something on the clone article is contested, either you or some other user will point to this page, as though it were authoritative. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 08:18, February 4, 2021 (EST)
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| :::I'm not Toomai, but I don't know if calling this page "authoritative" would be accurate. Is he not doing, albeit maybe a little biased, controlled testing to come to a conclusion about how closely related clones are in Smash games? I don't think it would be any different if anyone else, admin or not, were to do the same thing. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: red;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: pink;">'''the Lovely Rurouni'''</span>]] 09:19, February 4, 2021 (EST)
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| ::::Agreed with the above. There is no objective answer as to what makes a clone, and someone has to draw the lines. I don't see any viable alternative to the way it's done now. [[User:Grapevine|Grapevine]] ([[User talk:Grapevine|talk]]) 15:30, February 5, 2021 (EST)
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| :::::Did you even read what I said? This sort of methodology is not how anything else is decided on the Wiki. One does not simply get to create a user subpage, only available to editing by oneself, and then attempt to use that subpage to control the content of mainspace articles. Please make sure you actually understand the issue I'm raising before responding. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 15:51, February 5, 2021 (EST)
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| ::::::How is this any different from the way we gather resources and information from other websites? If Toomai had posted this data on Smashboards or some other relevant website, would you still have had an issue? I really don't understand where your point is coming from. It's a user subpage, but it's still data being pulled from the games themselves. Not sure how you fail to realize that. [[User:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:#850FFA; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Señor'''</span> <span style="color:#850FFA;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px green">'''Mexicano'''</span>]] ''[[User talk:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:lightpurple;text-shadow:0px 0px 2px lightgreen">(talk)</span>]]'' 20:03, February 5, 2021 (EST)
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| :::::::Please direct me to one other example of an article's contents being almost entirely determined by the opinions of a single person. I don't particularly care where it came from. If Toomai, or anyone else for that matter, had made this on Smashboards, or any other website, we still should not be using it in the way it is. Also, this is not "data", it's a list of comparisons. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 06:53, February 6, 2021 (EST)
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| ::::::::The entire basis for Melee frame data was for years sourced from the research of one person. Similarly, more obscure techniques are also usually sourced to the work of one or two people. Why would Toomai’s case be any different? Comparisons very well do count as data. To me it seems like you’re trying to make a big deal over a non-issue. This page could be recategorized under the SmashWiki namespace and nothing would change. [[User:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:#850FFA; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Señor'''</span> <span style="color:#850FFA;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px green">'''Mexicano'''</span>]] ''[[User talk:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:lightpurple;text-shadow:0px 0px 2px lightgreen">(talk)</span>]]'' 08:20, February 6, 2021 (EST)
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| :::::::::The frame data for Melee was initially obtained by counting the number of frames that elapse when using moves in the game, and with some corrections later on, was confirmed by datamining. Frame data is a series of numbers, which can be verified objectively, because, for instance, the clean hitboxes of Fox's up smash will always become active on the 7th frame of the animation. Frame 7 is frame 7, regardless of what opinions you may have on Fox's up smash. Toomai is looking at attack animations, and subjectively deciding which moves have similar enough animations for him to consider them cloned. For most characters, animations get adjusted over time, independently of each other. So while for some clones, mostly echo fighters, many of their moves have identical animation schemes, others differ from each other, to varying degrees. So, where do we draw the line? This isn't a question with a clear cut answer. This isn't a number of frames. These 2 situations cannot be compared to each other, so it is very dishonest of you to attempt to do so. Regardless, the frame data we have now isn't simply what 1 person says it is anyway, so even if this were a valid comparison, it still would not help your argument.
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| :::::::::Please do not be so disingenuous, should you decide to respond again. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 08:31, February 6, 2021 (EST)
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| ::::::::::How about instead of that you treat others with a little respect; I despise your tone. Show me an instance of this project being used as a means to force something through (basically being used as if it were policy) instead of it simply being used as a basis for argument. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 08:41, February 6, 2021 (EST)
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| :::::::::::Please note that me criticising someone's use of a misleading argument is not disrespecting them, just as you saying you despise my tone is not you saying you despise me.
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| :::::::::::Also, I didn't say it was being used as a policy, I said it was being used as a [[SmashWiki:Guideline|guideline]]. If you want some examples of it being used in this way, I can provide some from the discussions of the Clone article. [https://www.ssbwiki.com/Talk:Clone/Archive_4#Dr._Mario_and_Mario_in_SSB4][https://www.ssbwiki.com/Talk:Clone/Archive_4#Mario_and_Luigi][https://www.ssbwiki.com/Talk:Clone/Archive_5#Luigi_is_not_a_semi_clone][https://www.ssbwiki.com/Talk:Clone/Archive_5#Can_we_stop_trying_to_define_semi-clone?][https://www.ssbwiki.com/Talk:Clone/Archive_6#Ness_and_Captain_Falcon_in_SSB][https://www.ssbwiki.com/Talk:Clone#Several_problems_with_the_Ultimate_section][https://www.ssbwiki.com/Talk:Clone#Suggestion_on_changing_how_clones_are_determined][https://www.ssbwiki.com/Talk:Clone#We_need_more_terms.]. These sections tell a story of how the page has been used more and more authoritatively over time, initially only by Toomai, but soon adopted by other users. The last example shows the culmination of this, and despite Toomai having a very active role on the clone article and its talk page, he never attempted to correct the user on their claim that his page is what determines the categorisations on the page. This is not how user subpages are used for anything else, and for good reason. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 09:17, February 6, 2021 (EST)
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| ::::::::::::As none of these examples demonstrate an overstepping of power or treatment of this project as policy, I fail to see a problem here. Toomai and others are allowed to reference this for the sake of argument. No one is claiming that this is a definitive resource of information, rather that it is a useful device for looking at full movesets for characters and picking out similarities. You may or may not agree that the similarities are actually there, these are points for the discussion that referenced the article in the first place.
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| ::::::::::::Furthermore, if you take issue with certain parts of Toomai's findings, it's more constructive to contest specifics (you brought up one, but said there were more) than to call the entire thing bunk. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 09:29, February 6, 2021 (EST)
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| ::::::::::My point still stands that the frame data at one point came from a singular source. Proper frame data tools were not available til a while later. Once again though, this page gets moved to SmashWiki namespace and nothing changes. Not sure what exactly you’re pushing for here. I also don’t understand why you think comparing moves to one another is unable to be determined objectively. This can easily be accomplished by...just looking at the moves themselves. Literally most if not all of the classifications given to each character are agreed upon by the majority of the community, Toomai or not. This is just the data that proves the similarities. Also you really need to chill out with that borderline superiority complex of yours lmao. [[User:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:#850FFA; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Señor'''</span> <span style="color:#850FFA;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px green">'''Mexicano'''</span>]] ''[[User talk:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:lightpurple;text-shadow:0px 0px 2px lightgreen">(talk)</span>]]'' 08:46, February 6, 2021 (EST)
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| :::::::::::What I want is for this subpage to be treated like every other subpage on the Wiki which is not open to contributions by other users. Also, pointing out why an example is misleading and requesting that similarly misleading examples aren't used in future is not a superiority complex, but I'm sorry if it came across as though I was insulting you personally. That was not my intention. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 09:17, February 6, 2021 (EST)
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| == An error on this page ==
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| The archive box leads to [[User talk:Toomai/Archive 1]] rather than [[User talk:Toomai/Cloneosity/Archive 1]]. [[User:Superbound|Superbound]] ([[User talk:Superbound|talk]]) 06:54, February 4, 2021 (EST)
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| :Template sucks. Will try and remember to fix it when I have time. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Irrepressible 08:02, February 4, 2021 (EST)
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| ==Limbo==
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| I know it's too early to give any definitive answer to Pyra and Mythra since we haven't seen their movesets in full, but I like to think ahead. From what we see so far, all of their attacks have the same animations except for their specials. If we consider them sharing a down special since that's likely how they transform into each other, they share 20/24 moves, roughly 83%, right in limbo range. In that case, would this be considered full clone or semi-clone? Even if one of their normals turns out to be different or if Mythra's foresight counts to subtract from the score, it's still probably a good idea to assign the limbo percentages to one of the classifications. [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 16:47, February 21, 2021 (EST)
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| :Scratch the question and turn it into a suggestion. The 80-85% range should count as semiclone based on comments on reddit and gamefaqs calling Pyra and Mythra semiclones, solidifying a consensus that that percentage is a semiclone tier. The 25-30% range should be non-clone because you erroneously rated melee Jigglypuff's jab as different in melee but the same in the original despite neither Jigglypuff nor Kirby getting a new jab, making her actual score about 6/23 or 26%. Again, even if Mythra's Foresight subtracts from her score or if there's something I'm missing about Jigglypuff's jab in melee, the limbo percentages should definitely be placed into actual categories for future proofing. [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 18:14, February 21, 2021 (EST)
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| ::Going to just remind you to analyze Pyra and Mythra to see if the limbo categories need to be placed into actual categories. From what I can tell, their only different moves are all specials besides down special and including final smash, or 20/24, or 83.3%
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| I just found out that Incineroar and King K. Rool share their down smash, down air, neutral air, forward air, up throw, all of their floor/edge attacks, and if you really want to get technical both of their down specials are counters (though Incineroar's does charge up his attacks, so 0.5). They technically share 6.5/24, or 27.1% of their moveset, right in the middle of Limbo II. I think it would be worth analyzing K Rool and Incineroar to place Limbo II into an actual category (I'm personally thinking non-clone, but you may or may not have a different opinion). [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 15:13, March 17, 2021 (EDT)
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| == About Characters With More Than One Clone ==
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| I don't think another clone should be used to calculate how similar a move is between one clone and their parent. I find the data to be more accurate if it's purely between one clone and the parent like the charts suggest. For example, Dr. Mario's Down Special in Smash 4 and Ultimate wouldn’t be cloned from Mario (although Mario had the same Down Special in Melee). Young Link's Down Special in Ultimate would be a half-cloned move of Link's, in addition to other moves like his grab, third hit of neutral attack, and Final Smash not being cloned. This would barely push him as a semi-clone like with Pyra and Mythra. The reason I suggest this is because clones are not designed with other clones of the same character in mind (Dr. Mario wasn’t designed to be similar to Luigi, nor was Toon Link designed just to be similar to Young Link). [[User:Diddy Kongstar|Diddy Kongstar]] ([[User talk:Diddy Kongstar|talk]]) 00:50, April 16, 2021 (EDT)
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| :I initially disagreed with comparing to third characters too, but it's unfortunately necessary when they share so many moves with said third character. Although Young Link would indeed be a semi-clone if the comparison was only with Link, you have to remember that literally every move Young Link has that's different from Link is something Toon Link has, with the sole exception of Young Link having a rapid jab. Also, considering how borderline Young Link is in either case, it would just be better to not have a see also link on the top of every clone's page. Besides Richter/Daisy/Dark Samus/maybe Dark Pit, even the cloniest of clones have drastically different playstyles, so there's no need to call special attention. [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 04:15, April 16, 2021 (EDT)
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| It is indeed probably true that "Dr. Mario wasn’t designed to be similar to Luigi", but this isn't really about design ''intent''. This is about determining what parts of a character are unique, and what parts were simply copied from elsewhere to save time (as saving time is the reason clones are the way they are). Because of this, it is sometimes necessary to make a judgement call that a move was copied from somewhere other than the direct parent. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[File:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Xanthic 07:39, April 16, 2021 (EDT)
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| == Dr. Mario inconsistency ==
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| In the ''SSB4'' section, you count Dr. Mario's down special as a whole point on the grounds of it being cloned from a third, related character: Luigi. However, you don't count his down aerial as a cloned move; even though the aforementioned logic applies there and both Dr. Mario and Luigi's dairs share the same genealogy as clones of Mario's pre-''Brawl'' dair. Is this just an oversight, or is there a reason you treated the move as such? [[User:ShootingStar7X|ShootingStar7X]] ([[User talk:ShootingStar7X|talk]]) 15:16, May 22, 2022 (EDT)
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