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| == Proof in 4 words that Tiers are pointless. == | | == Proof in 4 words that Tiers are pointless. == |
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| ==Misinterpretation== | | ==Misinterpretation== |
| I think tiers do exist but some people misinterpret them. Like me for example. When I got serious about Brawl, I got interested in tier lists. I observed that Meta Knight was GOD TIER but before, I didn't really think he was all that great. I tried maining MK for a while but I was not very good. I then realized I had the wrong idea. Tier lists aren't to tell you which character is better, it's just which character has won more tournaments. But I think some people still have that idea. [[User:FireMario1534|FireMario1534]] ([[User talk:FireMario1534|talk]]) 22:28, 18 November 2013 (EST) | | I think tiers do exist but some people misinterpret them. Like me for example. When I got serious about Brawl, I got interested in tier lists. I observed that Meta Knight was GOD TIER but before, I didn't really think he was all that great. I tried maining MK for a while but I was not very good. I then realized I had the wrong idea. Tier lists aren't to tell you which character is better, it's just which character has won more tournaments. But I think some people still have that idea. [[User:FireMario1534|FireMario1534]] ([[User talk:FireMario1534|talk]]) 22:28, 18 November 2013 (EST) |
| :No, you're misinterpreting it. Tier lists are to tell which character is objectively better in competitive play with both players at a high equivalent skill level, tournament success is just one of the primary factors for determining it. '''What a tier list is not''' is a ranking of how good ''you will be'' with each character; every player responds to each character differently, and as such, it's feasible for a player to be better with a worse character than they are with a better character. What will happen though, is that while you may perform better with Mr. Game & Watch than you do with Meta Knight, an equivalently skilled Meta Knight player will certainly consistently outplace you at tournaments, and that is where tiers practically come into play.
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| :Think of it of a simple formula like: (character's ability/potential) + (your competency with the character) + (your base skill at the game) = how well you perform. The tier list measures the first variable only, and thus in no way can be used as an accurate measurement of how good you'll be with each character.
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| :Additionally, never use your own ability with a character for determining how good the character is. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 01:49, 19 November 2013 (EST)
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| ::You're telling me right now that tier lists explain which character is better in competitive play and tournament success is just one of the factors. But if there are, for example, very little tournament victories with Meta Knight, it would be impossible to know if Meta Knight is good in competitive play. I guess what I'm trying to is, what other major factors are there? [[User:FireMario1534|FireMario1534]] ([[User talk:FireMario1534|talk]]) 18:07, 19 November 2013 (EST)
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| :::"''very little tournament victories with Meta Knight, it would be impossible to know if Meta Knight is good in competitive play.''"
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| :::This isn't reality, so this statement is completely meaningless. And when the game first came out, the BBR held off on making the first tier list when they had insufficient data.
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| :::"''what other major factors are there''"
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| :::You got plain old objective analysis of the character, analysis of how good their matchup spread is compared to other characters and consideration of any significant counters, and consideration of the general consensus of the character and of any major argument for/against them. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 21:18, 19 November 2013 (EST)
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| ::::Sorry I replied so late, I forgot about the conversation. Anyways, when I say MK has little victories, it's just for the purpose of an example. Do you want me to use an example that's true? Okay. Take Ganondorf. He's last on the tier list but this does not necessarily mean he is the worst character. The problem is he is very hard to master because he is very sluggish. Since Ganondorf takes a lot of practice, a lot of tournament players don't bother playing with him. Do you catch my drift? [[User:FireMario1534|<font color="red">'''Fire'''</font>]][[User talk:FireMario1534|<font color="green">'''Mario'''</font>]][[Special:Contributions/FireMario1534|<font color="black">'''1534'''</font>]] 19:16, 25 November 2013 (EST)
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| :::::Olimar and the Ice Climbers take significantly more practice and are much harder to master than Ganondorf because of all the mechanics and shenanigans involving their partners. MK takes a lot less skill to play well enough to win, but probably reasonably equivalent skill to master. They are all top tier. Difficulty of mastering can be a factor in tier position (Olimar was stuck in the middle before people got good enough at him to realize he's super), but most of the time large changes like that only occur in the first few years of a game's life. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Jiggy 20:21, 25 November 2013 (EST)
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| ::::::That is most definitely true. However, I didn't say or mean to imply that Ganondorf was top tier or deserved to be had he been practiced with more. [[User:FireMario1534|<font color="red">'''Fire'''</font>]][[User talk:FireMario1534|<font color="green">'''Mario'''</font>]][[Special:Contributions/FireMario1534|<font color="black">'''1534'''</font>]] 20:48, 25 November 2013 (EST)
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| :::::::If a character only does bad at a time because they're "hard to master", it starts showing eventually (such as Toomai pointed out with Olimar and Ice Climbers, and for Melee there's it taking years for people to see Fox/Falco as superior to Sheik and that Pikachu isn't low tier) as the character's players get better. However, when the game is in its twilight, with everything to know about the game is known, and the best players of Ganondorf still have bottom tier tournament results, then you can't chalk that up to being "hidden potential not realised". Additionally, objective analysis of Ganondorf shows his traits are just supremely bad (being the slowest character with almost no recovery, while being incapable of camping nor combating opposing camping, isn't gonna make you "hard to master", it's gonna make you an objectively inferior character). Plus for my classic example, compare Ganondorf to Snake, you'll see the latter is statistically, objectively superior in about every way, and no amount of player ability can change that. Additionally, what could potentially be achieved in TAS is irrelevant (such as with Ganondorf, constant 0-deaths with Flame Choke chains), as no human will ever realistically get anywhere close to approaching it. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 00:50, 26 November 2013 (EST)
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| == Rankings vs Tiers ==
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| Rankings do not immediately imply tiers. With the rankings involving x variables to the nth degree, rankings should exist, and I am not saying that they don't. However, tiers implies that the bottom character of a tier is undeniably better in every way that cares in comparison to the top character of the next tier down, while the top character of a tier and the bottom character of the same tier are roughly equal. Rankings may exist, but that doesn't immediately imply that tiers also do.[[Special:Contributions/121.127.215.124|121.127.215.124]] 07:31, 23 May 2015 (EDT)
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| ==This page (and talk page) is the textbook definition of '''censorship'''==
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| Can't bring up a valid argument against tier-lists here, otherwise your "anti-tier" position will render your research as mad-man's work.
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| An essay, by the way, is a collection of opinions backed up by facts, but debatable nonetheless. [[Special:Contributions/23.27.245.117|23.27.245.117]] 19:32, 19 September 2016 (EDT)
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| == tier list arguments (dont remove just because of the title.) ==
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| people play high tiers often for a bigger chance to win, rendering lower tiers not being able to change tiers. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:184.166.255.30|184.166.255.30]] ([[User talk:184.166.255.30|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/184.166.255.30|contribs]]) 04:29, 23 September 2018</small>
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