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| Voting – A poll to summarize opinion is okay. A vote that decides... anything! ... is not. Votes are about as unwiki as one can get, as they give everyone an equal voice regardless of their qualifications or knowledge. Discussion gives those with insight more of a say, which is how things ought to be. | | Voting – A poll to summarize opinion is okay. A vote that decides... anything! ... is not. Votes are about as unwiki as one can get, as they give everyone an equal voice regardless of their qualifications or knowledge. Discussion gives those with insight more of a say, which is how things ought to be. |
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| </div> </center> {{clr}} | | </div> </center> {{clear}} |
| Vote tallies are just asking for users to | | Vote tallies are just asking for users to |
| #gather all their wikifriends and get them to vote support and then, if needed | | #gather all their wikifriends and get them to vote support and then, if needed |
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| ::::I do resent the view that the policies I'm trying to implement are skewed by my distrust of the community, however. If the community as a whole can't see just how much those policies (NPA, AGF, YAV in particular) are worth to this wiki, then like I said before, there's nothing left for me to do. I'm doing my best; if I get shot down, I have nothing left to offer. <br> | | ::::I do resent the view that the policies I'm trying to implement are skewed by my distrust of the community, however. If the community as a whole can't see just how much those policies (NPA, AGF, YAV in particular) are worth to this wiki, then like I said before, there's nothing left for me to do. I'm doing my best; if I get shot down, I have nothing left to offer. <br> |
| ::::I hope you realize that I'm not trying to demolish the wiki, I'm trying to help it the best I can. I'm sorry if I come off that way, but walls of cold logic are the only way I can explain. --[[User:Shadowcrest|<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="Steelblue">Shadowcrest</font>]] 18:33, 21 August 2008 (UTC) | | ::::I hope you realize that I'm not trying to demolish the wiki, I'm trying to help it the best I can. I'm sorry if I come off that way, but walls of cold logic are the only way I can explain. --[[User:Shadowcrest|<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="Steelblue">Shadowcrest</font>]] 18:33, 21 August 2008 (UTC) |
| :::::Perhaps at a point I could contend, when I have half a day to drop on this :). However, for the time being, I hope the ongoing debate in some part acknowledges the existence of a reasonable position for the supporting of this policy. At the very least you are a worthy foe. I do hope you acknowledge, however, that the final decision is up to this community, and while you may participate in the debate, the adoption of this policy is independent of your direct intervention. [[User:Semicolon|Semicolon]] ([[User talk:Semicolon|talk]]) 19:12, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
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| ::::::I do realize that (much to my displeasure, but that's neither here nor there) I can not just implement my RfA policy in addition to my other policies and expect the community to be happy. And I assure you, I will likely be partaking in any and all discussions related to the adoption of a new RfA policy. --[[User:Shadowcrest|<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="Steelblue">Shadowcrest</font>]] 19:23, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
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| :::::::Forgive my ignorance, but why on earth do you care what policies are implemented and what aren't? [[User:Semicolon|Semicolon]] ([[User talk:Semicolon|talk]]) 19:26, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
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| ::::::::I don't mean to answer for SC, nor do I mean to be (particularly) facetious, but would you accept an answer of "he wants to improve the wiki"? – [[User:Defiant Elements|<font color="black">Defiant Elements</font>]] 19:33, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
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| :::::::::<small>edit conflict</small>Because I am just as capable of contributing here as you are. And the lack of policies and the sysops blatantly ignoring the policies you have decided to implement is just sad. --[[User:Shadowcrest|<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="Steelblue">Shadowcrest</font>]] 19:36, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
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| ::::Semicolon, you write ''"1. Because in a universe of anonymity, the only justice is equality. People don’t have to answer for their reasoning or their actions. People will think how they will. Internet arguments/discussions do not accomplish anything."'' and on the other hand you write ''"I resent your insinuation that we are not good judges of character"''. The anonymity stops when you become part of an internet community. Why is it that people choose sockpuppets to wreak havoc sometimes? Exactly because they have lost that anonymity with each edit they've made to the wiki, piece by piece. Exactly that is what makes you think you can judge character. So you have to recognize that in a working community, not all opinions are equal because those of better-known users have added dimensions. This is a '''good''' thing.
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| ::::''"I fear that your policies may be influenced by this distrust as well."'' As far as these policies have been copied from another wiki/wikipedia itself, they cannot have been influenced by distrust of administrators on this present wiki. It isn't true in the general case, either, because typically adminstrators have written these policies or at least significantly contributed and consented.
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| ::::You sponsorship deal make admins responsible for judging a candidate before a community opinion about them is known. This is not a good thing. Wikis work by leveraging community input, and thus community input should be solicited '''before''' the admins decide whether they want to work with a certain candidate. Of course anyone could make a User: page where suitable candidates could be discussed by the community, and thus provide the needed community input; once a community-supported candate had found sponsorship, the vote would be a mere formality. The flaw of such a system is that it is overly complicated; if the vote is a formality, you can do away with it and reduce the process to a page of community discussion about any admin candiate anyone can come up with; and promotion to admin is then based on the discretion of the admis or a buraeucrat. And voila! your system has been improved into SC's proposal. --[[User:M.mendel|◄mendel►]] ([[User talk:M.mendel|talk]]) 23:38, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
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| :::::Are you kidding? There is still anonyminity everywhere. Because you can continue to recast yourself as you wish, you could be anyone and everyone. That is the essence of anonymitiy. If you fear the creation and abuse of sleepers, there are provisions for it in a time requirement, but I am open to suggestion. I don't know if it's a good thing that users are treated differently in their opinions. I thought one of the principles of wikia is that the administrators, by the policies and admission of SC, are no different than the lowest member. This is in that spirit. Your suggestion is not.
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| :::::As for the policies, they may not have been designed specifically for that purpose, but their suggestion is certainly of that design.
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| :::::I would contend that it is a bad thing for the community to input before the administrators. With that scenario, as I have pointed out, sysops can be nominated as popularity contests. This is a serious flaw and an actual problem that the SmashWiki had and has to face. My policy addresses it. Yours provides the status quo. [[User:Semicolon|Semicolon]] ([[User talk:Semicolon|talk]]) 00:22, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
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| ::::::My point is that the anonymity isn't total, it is anonymity by degrees. And because it is so, it invalidates your premise, and thus, that part of your argument.
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| ::::::The YAV policy means that in editing disputes, users are not to be treated differently because of their "rank"=their role as admin,bureaucrat etc. If you have your eyes open, you'll observe that users are treated differently, nonetheless. Most openly because they don't log in (IPs are pond scum in some people's eyes), but there many non-rank discrimitors, such as their grasp of the language, or their place in the community. This is normal and beneficial.
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| ::::::Well, even if the act of suggesting the policies was motivated by distrust, that doesn't mean they're bad. It just means that their adoption has the potential to raise trust in the admins, and that is good.
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| ::::::Sysops can be nominated as popularity contests. But they won't be promoted based on that, because a RfA is not a vote, it is a discussion - and every admin can take part in it. If a candidate's RfA is popular with both users and admins, he's ideal - great! If the RfA shows dissent about the candidate's admin abilities, promoting that person will raise a lot of community lashback (speaking from experience here). If you consider yourself able to judge the character of a person, surely you are able to judge the character of a RfA: is it a discussion or a popularity vote?
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| ::::::Calling a popularity contest as a "problem" seems to me to be exaggerated, even if it is held on an RfA page.
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| ::::::Turning your argument around, if all you need is a single admin's sponsorship, all you need to do is to get popular with ''a single admin''. Being a yes-man seems to be a very simple way to do it; select the admin that most closely matches your values and behaviour and get started. If you manage to sway that admin to sponsor you, you then get '''promoted''' based on a "vote" that is exactly the popularity contest you abhor. By your own criteria, your proposal is inferior. It is better the nomination be abusable as a popularity contest than to have the promotion be one. --[[User:M.mendel|◄mendel►]] ([[User talk:M.mendel|talk]]) 03:18, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
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| :::::::Provided that complete anonyminity is always available, the resultant behavior is unchanged. In regards to users being treated differently and the 'YAV' one could be forgiven for thinking differently. The policy unequivocally states "No matter how much time you've spent here, whether or not you are an admin, or even whether or not you are logged in or banned, you are valuable. More importantly, '''you are not less valuable than any other user- not even admins'''...You are just as entitled to question, suggest, or change Smashwiki as any other user, '''whether it is your first day or your first anniversary.''' Likewise, you have the same responsibility to follow our editing policies as every other user. Finally, your mistakes will be forgiven- just as they would be for any other user." I don't care if people are treated differently; they shouldn't be, and SC's policy undeniably agrees with me. I doubt it has anything to do with editing disputes, seeing as the word "edit" '''does not even appear in the policy description.''' I would suggest you read your own policies before you defend or suggest them. And that you would suggest popularity contests as not being a problem for SmashWiki also demonstrates you incredible lack of knowledge and background on the subject. Many of our contributers were part of the 'Cult of Personality,' and it constituted most active members aside from the sysops and I. These people banded together in support of each other. If sysop nominations had not been closed for lack of need, current policy would dictate that they receive powers soley because practically all active members support each other in their quest for adminship, even if many of them hardly deserve it. You also show unfamiliarity of our current system by stating that nominations can be caused by popularity contest, because our system is a self-nomination only. Promotions, in fact, can be popularity contests, and ironically, the only thing that cannot be a popularity contest is the nomination itself. As far as your other suggested method of corruption, you once again show a lack of trust of our adminship. They can recognize an unfit candidate from a fit one. Contrary to your persistent negativity '''our sysops are not dumb. They can be effective judges of character.''' There are checks and balances here; if all a particular user has done is suck up to a single sysop and has not garnered the respect of the community the nomination will be shot down! Holy cow. It works! Imagine that. Cheerfully yours, [[User:Semicolon|Semicolon]] ([[User talk:Semicolon|talk]]) 04:20, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
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| ::::::::''"Provided that complete anonyminity is always available, the resultant behavior is unchanged."'' Well, now you're down to asserting things without evidence. If anonymity is total, you couldn't even hope to judge the character of the anonymous person - yet you assert that capable admins do that.
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| ::::::::About users being treated equal: you reiterate what the policy states and keep on ignoring the reality. Of course that leads you into more fallacy. If you demand that all users be treated equally, how can you then rationalize not promoting all of them to admin positions?
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| ::::::::You are telling me that there was (is?) a large group of users that did not have anyone to represent their views within the admin base. If you view the admin system as a system of government with the ideal of equality, this is inexcusable. If you view the admins as a team to keep the wiki working smoothly, this is ill-advised at best, because it is almost unavoidable that this creates unrest. You could have avoided promoting a CoP to admin position by listening to their issues with a friendly ear, or by promoting one of them and working with him and through him (or her). You didn't do that, you got unrest. I can't even begin to count how often this has repeated itself in history.
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| ::::::::About recognizing unfit candidates: I won't argue that much more because you're down to assertions again. However, regarding promotions, it may perhaps be more important that the admins recognize people that can, with time, become very good admins. This is harder than to recognize misfits, and it is even harder when the area in which the admin is to excel is not one that you yourself are good at.
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| ::::::::I urge you to rethink your position, I would hate for you to not abandon untenable arguments merely because you harbor a grudge. And I don't say this to patronize you, but because I like discussing with you. --[[User:M.mendel|◄mendel►]] ([[User talk:M.mendel|talk]]) 22:47, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
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| :I'm butting in on a critical point behind your (Shadowcrest's) argument that I think I have an issue with (you guys may feel free to continue around me. add a level 3 section header if you wish):
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| ::''Valid point, but if you have a community-supported bureaucrat who you can trust to make the right decision (after all "if you can’t trust your sysops then you have a bigger problem then simply the nomination process" applies to bureaucrats too) then you can trust their judgment.''
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| :''Unlike GuildWiki'', the only bureaucrat that was instituted by ''any'' community input (whether SmashWiki or SsbWikia), from what I can see, was Kirby King. The only one I honestly trust is Kirby King. I've butted heads with Dtm one too many times for me to find trust in him — he argues about one thing one minute in once place and then 3 months later he says something different about arguing about that one thing, just for one example. The other bureaus aren't/were never active.<br />This is a problem for me. And that is, I think, another (unspoken) reason why the administrators made a decision to shut down RfA for a bit. It was something that wasn't really contributing positively to the community. We got one person out of 6 or 7 or however many.<br />Which brings to the front of my mind another issue I have with both of your ideas for a new RfA: RfAs ''shouldn't'' last forever. On a wiki this size (small), I don't think a week is an appropriate timescale either.<br />Will be back for more, after I've read through the proposals again. --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [[User:Sky2042|w]]) 01:11, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
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| ::I inserted my reply to Semicolon above yours. --[[User:M.mendel|◄mendel►]] ([[User talk:M.mendel|talk]]) 03:18, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
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| :[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_College_(United_States) Suggested reading]. [[User:Defiant Elements|Defiant Elements]] 05:36, 21 August 2008 (UTC) | | :[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_College_(United_States) Suggested reading]. [[User:Defiant Elements|Defiant Elements]] 05:36, 21 August 2008 (UTC) |
| ::Well I was talking in a vague and kind of analogous (thank you spell check) way when referencing the electoral college. Could that work? If not, why not?--[[User:Oxico|Oxico]] ([[User talk:Oxico|talk]]) 13:46, 21 August 2008 (UTC) | | ::Well I was talking in a vague and kind of analogous (thank you spell check) way when referencing the electoral college. Could that work? If not, why not?--[[User:Oxico|Oxico]] ([[User talk:Oxico|talk]]) 13:46, 21 August 2008 (UTC) |
| :::From someone who has studied political sciences, the electoral college system would not work in this environment. Not only is the system itself flawed, but we lack the infrastructure or appropriate divisions to hold a multi-district election. In our system, we are a single single-member district, i.e. we elect one person at a time and that person is chosen by consensus of the entire wiki. [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 21:16, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
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| == minimum number of votes == | | == minimum number of votes == |
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