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| I don't disagree with what you guys are saying. I went too far in some of my writings when I shouldn't have. It should be made more neutral and be condensed in a proper way. The only real issue I would have is the removal of sources or condensing of words to not be accurate to the source. Again I apologize for any issues I caused, I worked on improving that article when it really needed to be improved. It was missing some foundational info like ban statements and the like. Making the article better is all I care about here, and that includes making it neutral so people can come to their own conclusions from the facts. Thank you. [[User:Person|Person]] ([[User talk:Person|talk]]) 18:20, September 13, 2024 (EDT) | | I don't disagree with what you guys are saying. I went too far in some of my writings when I shouldn't have. It should be made more neutral and be condensed in a proper way. The only real issue I would have is the removal of sources or condensing of words to not be accurate to the source. Again I apologize for any issues I caused, I worked on improving that article when it really needed to be improved. It was missing some foundational info like ban statements and the like. Making the article better is all I care about here, and that includes making it neutral so people can come to their own conclusions from the facts. Thank you. [[User:Person|Person]] ([[User talk:Person|talk]]) 18:20, September 13, 2024 (EDT) |
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| I'm going to be completely honest with you, I honestly think you are way too obsessed with the Technicals/ZeRo situation, since your two major edits since our last post really did not add much to their respective situation.
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| First, the Technicals edit. As per [[SW:SMASHER#Controversies]], only controversies that have direct effects on a player's career should be mentioned. The section you added to Technicals' page is, at the end of the day, at worst Technicals trying to stir up drama. While he did use threatening language, that's really about it. He's not actually going to burn "entire community to the fucking ground" since it's more so an exaggeration of his frustrations with the community. In addition, the section added virtually nothing to Nairo's situation nor Technicals' involvement with it. As such, your edit does not follow the guideline I mentioned above, and to be quite frank it comes off as you adding a reason why you don't like Technicals to the wiki.
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| Next, the ZeRo edit. I do admit we did lack the community's response to ZeRo's allegations, however the main issue with your section is that it heavily revolved around one person's video and arguments. The section therefore comes off as a summary of what that one dude thought of the ZeRo situation. Aside from that, there are still several issues with the section:
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| :"The community reaction to the conclusion of the lawsuit was widely of skepticism that it has absolved ZeRo of his allegations"
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| First of all, obviously this lawsuit didn't absolve ZeRo of his allegations since the lawsuit was unrelated to any of ZeRo's other accusations outside of Jisu. But also, the conclusion of the lawsuit wasn't really meant to absolve ZeRo in the first place; it was meant to be a conclusion to the drama between ZeRo and Jisu. This, the section itself is basically pointless because it is arguing for something that isn't even being argued seriously in the first place.
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| :"particularly from those who are fans of Technicals"
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| What is the point in singling out Technicals here? For one, there are people who don't like Technicals at all who still think some of his word has weight. Also, I don't think most of them believe ZeRo was absolved (especially if the Katie situation remains unresolved). It's just they question why ZeRo was treated differently than Nairo, even though Nairo's case is also unresolved. Those who actually believe ZeRo was absolved are often not taken seriously in the community.
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| :"where ZeRo would be unbanned from and attend an in-person regional at [https://www.start.gg/tournament/cirque-3-5-a-florida-regional/events Cirque 3.5] and attend some online tournaments, such as the infamous Mana Monthly series"
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| This is just blatant misinformation. First, Cirque is infamous for inviting banned players like Samsora and CaptainZack, so this isn't ZeRo being unbanned but more so the organizers not caring about the ban. Second, taking a quick look at the Mana Monthly series and the organizer's Twitter bio literally mentions that he runs events for banned people (and players like Eikelman and Mekk have competed in the past), so again that is more so just a case of the organizer not caring about the ban.
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| The only edits you have been making on the wiki revolve around Technicals, ZeRo, and Hax, and most of these edits remain problematic at best or just straight-up biased at worst. The fact that you also cited a video from someone not part of the community also makes me believe you are seeking out this content, even if it upsets you. I understand you want to get the full picture out, but it's still pretty clear you are letting your bias seep into your edits, so I strongly recommend just taking a step back from all of this. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 23:40, 23:40, October 29, 2024 (EDT)
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| I'm going to be honest with you, you're getting weirdly personal accusations and needlessly insulting. You can bring up issues without using insults. I don't understand the issue here, if you think the edit can be improved or should be removed then just do it. I sincerely confused why you state ZeRo attending Cirque 3.5 and Mana monthly is misinformation. That is an objective true statement. If you feel it should be noted differently then do it, but you're accusing me of something that's simply not true. You're looking for bad faith when there is none.
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| That "random guy" has a hundred thousand views+ on his video and contains information not available elsewhere as its noted he paid the clerk fees for the legal papers. Video essayist have been used as primarily sources many times in this wiki. There is no issue here using him as a source, and that's not remotely the only source I used.
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| Your also stating objective misinformation here, ZeRo has been pretty clear before, during and after the case is meant to completely absolve him, In fact he acts like the case has absolved him right now, You really should check the sources, lawsuit was meant to refute more then just Jisu. The defemation lawsuits are meant to prove in court that the accusation, both Jisu's personal and others were false. That's needed to win the lawsuit. neither Jisu or really any of them were proven in court to be false. It's not our job to come to our own conclusion but to show what others have said and the facts.
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| I also don't know why your bringing up Nairo. He has nothing to do with this here.
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| I mentioned Technicals because is one of the biggest defenders of ZeRo is technicals and there is a lot of overlap for people who believe this. There is not exactly a polls for this. This is my experience as being a member of this community. If you think it should remove Technicals being mentioned then do so.
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| Also yes mentioning Technical's promise to destroy the smash community is something of note to add to a controversy section. This is a major issue that the community has with Technicals, and is consistently brought up. If you feel its not well written enough then so be it, but it does follow the controversy guidelines.
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| Please do not insult me again by accusing me of bad faith bias and using weird unhinged pycho analsyt. Those statements are just inappropriate. Please Communicate like an adult. You say I lied for putting literal facts down of tournaments that he attended, and then proclaimed some conspiracy. It's just insulting. This should be a discussion of making articles better and not weird personal attacks. Ask you to not do that again. You can't have a productive conversation doing that. If You really think I'm some unhinged bad faith person, then abuse your influence to get me banned. I'm acting in good faith and you're not reciprocating that. This is just a hobby, not a crusade. [[User:Person|Person]] ([[User talk:Person|talk]]) 03:20, October 30, 2024 (EDT)
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| :"I sincerely confused why you state ZeRo attending Cirque 3.5 and Mana monthly is misinformation."
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| ::I did not say that ZeRo attending these events were misinformation. I'm saying that claiming he was '''''unbanned''''' from these events is straight up misinformation. There is a difference between being "unbanned" and "ignoring the ban". Being unbanned means that the person has either been absolved of their accusations or have, for the lack of better words, "served their time" if their ban was not indefinite. On the other hand, ignoring the ban implies that the organizers allowed the person to compete even though the organizers knew they were still banned.
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| ::On the contrary, that entire paragraph implies that ZeRo was specifically unbanned from these events, which I have to emphasize again is not true. If you want further proof of that, Cirque 3.5's organizers [https://x.com/Theorlandogg/status/1812986333331099875 directly addressed this], acknowledging the accusations against ZeRo, yet they still chose to allow ZeRo to attend as a "second chance", and not because they believed he was absolved from his accusations. Not to mention, the same organizers have invited banned players in the past, including CaptainZack to Cirque 2, and one of the organizers had even invited {{Sm|Ally}}, someone who was clearly been banned indefinitely, to their [[Tournament:Kiki's Back On the Scene|online event]] a while back. I don't need to explain Mana Monthlies again, but I have to emphasize that there is evidence it's the same case.
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| :"There is no issue here using him as a source, and that's not remotely the only source I used"
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| ::and I never said there was an issue using him as a source, even in my edit summary I said [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Smasher%3AZeRo&type=revision&diff=1931997&oldid=1931982 "there was stuff worth keeping"]. However when most of the important information in the section, aside from additional info from ZeRo and Jisu, is from that one YouTuber, then I question whether it needs its own section or whether it can just be merged with the section above.
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| :"The defemation lawsuits are meant to prove in court that the accusation, both Jisu's personal and others were false."
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| ::Yet the entire lawsuit in itself was mainly ZeRo suing Jisu over the document/her statements. If there are any other accusations outside of Jisu (which there are), then it cannot be settled in the Jisu lawsuit since it's unrelated to it; ZeRo even mentioned that in his video, where he mentioned that even after Jisu deleted her document, the Katie situation remains unresolved. ZeRo can say all he wants, but the fact remains that the only cases with any resolution are the ones that Jisu were involved with.
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| :"Also yes mentioning Technical's promise to destroy the smash community is something of note to add to a controversy section. This is a major issue that the community has with Technicals, and is consistently brought up."
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| ::And what I'm saying is that this is just a generic, drama-filled statement that at the end of the day really just means how much Technicals does not like the state of the current community. Are we really going to add every instance of someone hating on the Smash community to their controversy sections? The words are charged, yes, but that's all there is to it. It does not fall under our guidelines at all. If you were meaning to explain how Technicals is a controversial figure in the community, this is also not the way to do it.
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| :"Please do not insult me again by accusing me of bad faith bias and using weird unhinged pycho analsyt."
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| :"If You really think I'm some unhinged bad faith person, then abuse your influence to get me banned."
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| :"I'm acting in good faith and you're not reciprocating that."
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| ::I do admit my tone was very charged and saying you "are seeking out this content" certainly went too far; I apologize for that. However my point was asking you to just take a step back and focus on editing something else, because I think it's pretty clear through your edits that you are becoming too invested into this case or Technicals. I want to trust you are acting in good faith; it's what [[SW:AGF|we are supposed to do]]. However, it is still concerning that several of your edits remained biased, or at least was becoming confirmation bias, and telling me to "abuse my influence" is just ad hominem and irrelevant. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 13:54, October 30, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::A quick addendum to my statement, it does seem like ZeRo was allowed to enter Mana Monthly events [https://x.com/themanalord/status/1827094486025208110 since the organizer believed his accusations to be false]. However it should be noted that the organizer's primary reason for running these events seem to be really twisted as well, so it's not really clear whether the organizer invited ZeRo to compete because he believed ZeRo was truly innocent or because ZeRo was caught up in cancel culture. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 14:12, October 30, 2024 (EDT)
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