Editing User talk:Omega Tyrant/Clone charts

My main gripe with this is your definition at the top of "cloned move" and "semi-cloned move". You say that the main differences between a clone move is the hitbox data, while the main differences between a semi-cloned move is the "function" - which you proceed to define as hitbox data. You probably didn't intend this but you basically contradicted yourself with your terminology.

My secondary gripe is how you interpret the function/operation of special moves. I really don't see how you can consider PK Flash and PK Freeze non-cloned when you consider Falcon Punch and Warlock Punch to be semi-cloned (in Brawl), as they have the same differences: different animation/graphics, different damage/knockback/hitbox effect, identical operation.

Speaking of "operation", I think it's the primary way that most players (i.e. those who aren't interested in the technical sutff) perceive special moves to be clones of each other. If the controls and results of a special move are the same as another they're likely to start thinking "A is like B but with X difference", which is indication of at least semi-clone standing in their mind. Combined with the fact that most such players mentally differentiate characters by their most outstanding/memorable traits (i.e. their special moves), this results in pairs like Fox/Wolf being called semiclones or clones by the general public, as they aren't interested enough in the finer details to understand the full differences of the special moves, and they probably don't care about the individuality of regular attacks. It's like indivisible atoms, or centrifugal force - it's not technically correct, but it's good enough for most people, and as such it's the most common point of view. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Bold 23:56, 22 September 2011 (EDT)
:For point A, I probably could have worded that better. By hitbox data, I'm primarily referring to knockback and minor angle alterations. I'll reword accordingly.

:For point B, PK Freeze freezes opponents, while PK Flash simply hits them upwards. Such a function difference doesn't exist between Falcon/Warlock Punch. Plus with Freeze, how much control you have over it is drastically more than with PK Flash. With Falcon/Warlock Punch, there is no such control difference between the two. However, I'll admit this is one of the "gray area moves", and I felt PK Freeze has enough to be considered a non cloned move.

:For point C, I recognise that, and it's part of why this page was created, to inform those who otherwise don't look beyond simple operation. As you could agree, simply having the same operation shouldn't be enough to call something a cloned move, as otherwise, nearly every up special would be a cloned move under that judgment, as well as neutral special projectiles. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 00:36, 23 September 2011 (EDT)

Just a quick thing, I think Fire Fox/Wolf deserves one X. In terms of an offensive move, they're very different, but in terms of a recovery move, they're very similar. Otherwise (par Reflector), Fox & Wolf aren't clones in any way. That is all. [[User:ToastUltimatum|<font color="darkorange">Toast</font><font color="darkbrown">Ultimatum</font>]] [[File:Transparent Swadloon.png|27px]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|''<span style="color: silver;">Complaints Box</span>'']] 13:48, 23 September 2011 (EDT)
:Simply operating similarly as a recovery isn't enough. Otherwise, we would be calling many recovery moves clone moves of each other. And you can't expect recovery moves to be that different in operation. Also, the offensive mechanics still apply to their recovery mechanics.

:For Reflector, they both function by creating a fast reflector shield around them that semi-spikes opponents, and give invincibility frames. It could be argued they're semi-cloned moves however. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]]

::Yeah, they did all they could to make Reflector different. I use it surprisingly often for its counter aspect. But as you gave it an XX, I was just agreeing with you. [[User:ToastUltimatum|<font color="darkorange">Toast</font><font color="darkbrown">Ultimatum</font>]] [[File:Transparent Swadloon.png|27px]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|''<span style="color: silver;">Complaints Box</span>'']] 14:15, 23 September 2011 (EDT)
:::I could give it a X on the basis that its appearance is different, and its function isn't identical. Also, I use it for a countering often in a fight with Wolf xD. It's a great move to get you out of close combat and to prevent juggles. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 14:17, 23 September 2011 (EDT)

Reflector should be a single X, as it has a completely different animation and (to my knowledge) knockback angle. Note that Wolf's reflector has actually been claimed as a counter for its function, whereas Fox's does not. Also, I'm not sure why you included Marth and Ike here, since I've never heard them called clones... [[User:Mr. Anon|Mr. Anon]] ([[User talk:Mr. Anon|talk]]) 20:39, 23 September 2011 (EDT)
:I'll change it accordingly then.

:For Marth and Ike, look at past revisions of the clone page, and old talk page discussion. There were seriously people who saw them as some sort of clones. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 22:05, 23 September 2011 (EDT)


I'll discuss this more later after I've gone in to training mode for a refresher, but I don't see how you can call Ganondorf a clone in brawl when they have LESS similiarities, according to your chart, than Mario and Luigi. Also, having different damage or knockback does NOT mean they're not "cloned" moves if they share the exact same (or nearly the same) hitboxes and animations. I'm almost certain that Toon Link and Link share at least 16 of their 22 moves (17/23 if you count z-air)- [[Special:Contributions/71.87.116.224|71.87.116.224]] 02:39, 15 June 2013 (EDT)

I would also like to know why Lucas and Ness are listed together when "Lucas's standard attacks are unique with the exception of his forward smash and up aerial". Being "similar in mechanics" means nothing. Pretty much every Forward Smash knocks characters the same general direction, and most moves of a given type (back aerial, dash attack, etc) are going to be "similar in mechanics" no matter who uses them - [[Special:Contributions/71.87.116.224|71.87.116.224]] 02:47, 15 June 2013 (EDT)
:"'' but I don't see how you can call Ganondorf a clone in brawl when they have LESS similiarities, according to your chart, than Mario and Luigi.''"

:Where did I call Brawl Ganondorf a clone? I'm in full agreement with the clone page that he's a semi-clone, just like Mario and Luigi.

:"''Also, having different damage or knockback does NOT mean they're not "cloned" moves if they share the exact same (or nearly the same) hitboxes and animations.''"

:Function - Simply, what the move actually does. Hitbox properties and placement (such as knockback angle, if the move is a single hit or multi-hitting, damage effects such as fire added) largely determines this. 

:If a move has a different function, it is most certainly a major change, as the move must be used differently and has different applications (which then goes and leads to the character playing differently, and part of being a clone is playing identically to the character they were cloned from). Calling a move a "cloned move" just because of its animation, glances over the actual use of the move and its impact on the character. There are only so many ways you can throw a punch or swing a sword; how the move actually works is very important.

:"''I'm almost certain that Toon Link and Link share at least 16 of their 22 moves (17/23 if you count z-air)''"

:Read the chart, you are wrong. Toon Link has 7 moves that can be considered cloned moves, 8 moves that fit the bill of a semi-cloned move, and the rest certainly having enough difference to not be considered a cloned move. Toon Link also has radically different physics from Link, another important part of cloneship you're glancing over. Toon Link is definitely a bonafide semi-clone, but he has too many differences to play identically to Link, and calling him a complete clone is an exaggeration and misrepresentation of his character.

:Regarding zair, I pretty much consider it a "bonus move". There are only four characters in the game with one (and for Lucas it doesn't even have any hitboxes), and they're all identical in animation and function (only difference is what tether is used and the hitboxes having slightly varying reach/damage/knockback). Even if you do count it as a cloned move, it doesn't push Toon Link from semi-clone to clone.

:"''I would also like to know why Lucas and Ness are listed together when "Lucas's standard attacks are unique with the exception of his forward smash and up aerial".''"

:"Ness/Lucas just have enough where it's not inappropriate to consider them semi-clones. However, '''if they didn't have near identical physics''', they would not have enough shared to be appropriately called semi-clones."

:Don't ignore the character's physics. A character's physics is a huge part of how they play. Ness' and Lucas' physics are pretty much identical, right down to them '''both suffering from 10 extra frames of lag out of grab releases that no other character suffers from''' (and as result hurts both of them hugely in competitive play). If their physics were like how Fox's are to Wolf's, then yeah calling them semi-cloned would be exaggerated. But with the identical physics, combined with the small amount of cloning in their moves, it's not inappropriate to call them semi-clones (albeit they're the least cloned of Brawl's definite semi-clones.

:"''Being "similar in mechanics" means nothing.''"

:Read what I said previously about function.

:"''Pretty much every Forward Smash knocks characters the same general direction''"

:How many forward smashes involve swinging a piece of wood sideways that reflect projectiles?

:"''and most moves of a given type (back aerial, dash attack, etc) are going to be "similar in mechanics" no matter who uses them''"

:This is just a gross generalisation. For example, go compare the dash attacks of all the Mario characters; they all have different functioning. And if you want to go down this route, many attacks are "similar in animation" then. Hopefully you get the point and don't throw out such a large net that makes the concept of cloning lose its meaning.

:Also, you seem to be ignoring the concept of "semi-clone", and seeing it as only "clone" and "not cloned". Don't do this. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 03:26, 15 June 2013 (EDT)
::You seem far too lenient in what you consider a "semi-clone". Kirby and Jigglypuff are not semi-clones. Mario and Luigi are no longer semi-clones. Wolf and Fox are not semi-clones. Sharing a handful of moves does not a semi-clone make. In melee, Roy and Marth more or less shared 90% of their moves. Mario and luigi shared like 60%. THAT is a semi-clone. And in Brawl, they only share like 5 moves. How can you consider the links semi clones when the bros are also semi clones? They have DRASTICALLY DIFFERENT numbers of similar moves.[[Special:Contributions/71.87.116.224|71.87.116.224]] 12:23, 15 June 2013 (EDT)
:: I don't get this whole "sort of similar" thing you have going on in the charts. The links, as far as I'm concerned, have the same down tilt, dash attack, fsmash, down aerial (in terms of animation, which is the key factor), neutral special, forward special (arguably, they both move the same, even though link's pulls them), and up special, despite your chart, and if you consider those different, I don't see how you think they have the same forward throw (too link's doesn't even kick despite sticker enhancements). The whole point of clones is they come from the same basic model and/or animations! "function" doesn't matter, they can change the function and still clearly be copypasting over from another character. Just because TL is smaller and runs faster doesn't mean he didn't completely rip off 90% of link's moves.- [[Special:Contributions/71.87.116.224|71.87.116.224]] 12:33, 15 June 2013 (EDT)

:::I'd like to butt in just for the sake of addressing Kirby and Jigglypuff, since it was I who inserted their entry into the clone article. They are semi-clones in ''SSB'', but not so much in Melee or Brawl. In SSB64, they have similar forward and up tilts, forward smashes, down aerials, neutral aerials, and back throws. Even the first few hits of their jabs are similar, although I won't go as far as to suggest they are cloned. However, the main similarity between them is their near identical physics and animations. Because of these factors, I think it is safe to say they are in the semi-clone range in SSB64. [[User:Mr. Anon|<font color="grey">'''Mr. '''</font><font color="midnightblue">'''Anon'''</font>]][[File:Anon.png|23px|link=Special:Random]][[User talk:Mr. Anon|''<span style="color: black;">talk</span>'']]  12:41, 15 June 2013 (EDT)

::::Their forward smashes are totally different I think you mean Dash Attack. And after the first game, they're not semi-clones in the slightest. I was more using it as an example of what crazy things people will say. The same people who think Jigglypuff is a (true) Kirby clone are the ones that said Wolf was a Fox clone, or that Lucas was a Ness clone. Speaking of Ness and Lucas, I can't see how anyone could consider their side special moves different, yet their up aerials the same. Ness does a slow, flipping headbutt while lucas does a fast, jabbing headbutt. Yet both PK Fires not only share the same name, but the same hitbox, other than Ness's being angled when in midair. For that matter, their neutrals are arguably the same move until they hit. I wouldn't even consider their dtilt the same. Ness has a quick jabbing kick while lucas twirls on one foot, kicking much higher. - [[Special:Contributions/71.87.116.224|71.87.116.224]] 17:03, 15 June 2013 (EDT)

:::::You still seem to be unable to distinguish function and animation. Just because something looks different means they necessarily have different functions? Of course not. For the up aerials, they may differ in animation and start up lag, but you would use the up aerials in pretty much the same way. The same goes for the down tilts; they are quick spammable down tilts that are used for locks and combo into grabs. The PK Fires are similar in animation but are totally different in function. Ness's PK Fire creates a column of fire with many weak small hitboxes that trap an opponent. Ideal for setups. Lucas's is a blast of fire that sends you away. Same hitboxes? Don't think so.--<span style="background-color:#6d84e1;border:3px solid silver">[[User:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:silver">'''Brian'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:black">Don't try me!</span>]]</sup>[[File:Falco.gif|link=|27px]]</span> 17:13, 15 June 2013 (EDT)
:::::Um pretty much every up aerial in the game has the same function. And Animation and hitbox trump function. Just because Lucas's PSI Magnet causes damage does not make it any less of a cloned move. And when I said both PK Fires had the same hitbox, I meant before it connects, Just like Luigi's up special. It may do differing damage along the path, but hit still hits anything above him, just like mario.- [[Special:Contributions/71.87.116.224|71.87.116.224]] 02:50, 16 June 2013 (EDT)
::::Function is just as important as animation in determining whether two attacks are cloned. If Link's dash attack produces knockback but Toon Link's does not, aren't they different, and not exactly the same? And if their forward throws produce very similar knockback and angling, but have different animations, aren't they still similar to a degree? Also, Kirby and Jigglypuff in SSB share a large amount of ground attacks, and physics, which makes it not unreasonable to call them semi-clones. Mario and Luigi share more than five moves, look at the clone chart to see how much they share. Also look at the amount of points given to the Bros and the Links, the Links only have two additional points than the Bros., that's not a drastic difference. Luigi is still a semi-clone of Mario in Brawl. OT never said that Fox and Wolf are semi-clones, look at the description he added underneath the chart. And Toon Link does not have 90 percent of Link's moves. Even in animation, they still have different neutral airs, back airs, forward airs, back throws, forward throws, and up smashes. Toon Link's Boomerang also looks different than Link's and they also have completely different physics, which is very important in determining cloneship. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 17:34, 15 June 2013 (EDT)
:::::In that example, they're still the same if they do the same movement. That doesn't make them different enough to make them not cloned. Toon link's dash attack may trip people, and Warlock Punch may be shadow instead of fire, but both are clearly derived from their counterparts. Are you going to tell me Dr. Mario isn't a clone of mario just because he has pills instead of fireballs, or his Super Sheet is slightly wider, or he uses electric attacks instead of fire? - [[Special:Contributions/71.87.116.224|71.87.116.224]] 02:50, 16 June 2013 (EDT)

"''You seem far too lenient in what you consider a "semi-clone". Kirby and Jigglypuff are not semi-clones. Mario and Luigi are no longer semi-clones. Wolf and Fox are not semi-clones. Sharing a handful of moves does not a semi-clone make. In melee, Roy and Marth more or less shared 90% of their moves. Mario and luigi shared like 60%. THAT is a semi-clone.''"

I don't get what you're going on about here. I explicitly state in my article here that Fox and Wolf aren't semi-clones, and I never fucking said anything about Kirby and Jigglypuff.

"''And in Brawl, they only share like 5 moves. How can you consider the links semi clones when the bros are also semi clones? They have DRASTICALLY DIFFERENT numbers of similar moves.''"

You're starting to get annoying, read the damn article here. Link and Toon Link don't even break 50% here in similarity, and aren't much higher than the Brawl Mario Bros., and aren't even as similar as the Melee Mario Bros.

"''The links, as far as I'm concerned, have the same down tilt, dash attack, fsmash, down aerial (in terms of animation, which is the key factor), neutral special, forward special (arguably, they both move the same, even though link's pulls them), and up special, despite your chart,''"

Fucking read what I and others said about function. Animation isn't everything you dolt.

"''and if you consider those different, I don't see how you think they have the same forward throw (too link's doesn't even kick despite sticker enhancements).''"

Read my explanation for that, and stop acting like animation is everything.

"''The whole point of clones is they come from the same basic model and/or animations! "function" doesn't matter, they can change the function and still clearly be copypasting over from another character.''"

You know what also typically happens when they make a "clone"? The move function gets copies over, so that the "cloned" character plays similarly to the character they were cloned from. They even will copy a move's function, but change the animation (like Ness/Lucas d-tilt and f-smash). Get off your high horse about animation being everything.

"''Just because TL is smaller and runs faster doesn't mean he didn't completely rip off 90% of link's moves''"

90% isn't even close, and read I said previously about character physics.

I also noticed you ignored most of what I said in my previous response to you. Ranting against someone while not addressing their points is a quickfire way to get yourself blacklisted. So stop with your tirade, or address people's points. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 18:41, 15 June 2013 (EDT)
:I can't address everything at once, I have other things to do, so I'm covering the points as I get to them, and in order of importance. As for toon link, he only has like 3 moves that aren't a total copy of link. 18 out of 21 equals 86%. Close enough to 90. Now compare him to any other character in brawl. There is nobody that comes even close to his degree of clone-ness. - [[Special:Contributions/71.87.116.224|71.87.116.224]] 02:50, 16 June 2013 (EDT)
::You are being really really dense right now.

::"''Um pretty much every up aerial in the game has the same function.''"

::You have no idea what you're talking about. Either learn this game, actually read what function is, or stop wasting our time.

::"''And Animation and hitbox trump function.''"

::This statement here is just idiotic, the '''hitbox is a part of the function'''. And did you not listen to a thing we said? '''Function determines how the move actually works'''. Animation does not trump that.

::"''And when I said both PK Fires had the same hitbox, I meant before it connects''"

::Stop being an idiot about this game. If it had the "same hitbox", they would behave exactly the same. They don't have the same hitbox, which is why '''they act differently when they hit the opponent'''.

::"''Just like Luigi's up special. It may do differing damage along the path, but hit still hits anything above him, just like mario.''"

::Hey, all up smashes hit people above them. Guess that means they have the same hitbox and are all cloned moves, huh? Hopefully you see the idiocy behind this and stop with this.

::"''In that example, they're still the same if they do the same movement''"

::If an attack is "the same", that means '''they do the same exact thing'''. Stop being an idiot, and stop acting like the same casuals who call Wolf a clone. Having the same animation means shit to how the move actually works. 

::"''that doesn't make them different enough to make them not cloned.''"

::If the moves function differently, then yes, that does make them very different, as they work differently, with different uses and applications. Fucking read what we said about function, instead of asserting animation is everything.

::"''Toon link's dash attack may trip people, and Warlock Punch may be shadow instead of fire, but both are clearly derived from their counterparts.''"

::When Toon Link's dash attack semi-spikes and trips, while Link's just knocks people into the air, that is a very clear function difference, and calling them a cloned move is an inaccuracy, as the moves cannot be used the same. With Warlock Punch, if you're going to call it a cloned move, you're contradicting yourself, as its animation is different than Falcon Punch in Brawl. And guess what, if you're going to call it any sort of cloned move (like how I consider it a semi-cloned move here), it's because of it '''functioning and operating exactly like Falcon Punch'''. You can't even remain consistent with your arguments.

::"'' Are you going to tell me Dr. Mario isn't a clone of mario just because he has pills instead of fireballs, or his Super Sheet is slightly wider, or he uses electric attacks instead of fire?''"

::Don't strawman people. Nobody said anything about Dr. Mario not being a clone.

::"''I can't address everything at once, I have other things to do, so I'm covering the points as I get to them, and in order of importance.''"

::If you're "too busy" to address all my points, then '''don't respond'''. And you're not "doing it in order of importance", you're ignoring most of everything everyone is saying to you.

::"''As for toon link, he only has like 3 moves that aren't a total copy of link. 18 out of 21 equals 86%.''"

::Alright, you're going full retard now. Since you're too lazy to read what I have on my page, I'm going to go through this step by step here with you.

*Physics - Physics are a very important part of character design, stop ignoring them. With Toon Link, not only does he have his own animations to movement and such, but his physics are completely different from Link's. In my rough score, I gave physics a value of 4 (each attack is 1), and Toon Link is clearly a score of 0 here. (0/25)

*Jab - No argument, a cloned move. (1/25)

*F-tilt - No argument, a cloned move. (2/25)

*U-tilt - No argument, a cloned move. (3/25)

*D-tilt - Same animation, but different functions. Link's hits vertically and meteor smashes, while Toon Link's hits weakly horizontally. A semi-cloned move. (3.5/25)

*Dash attack - Same animation, different functions. Link's hits you above him, while Toon Link's weakly semi-spikes and can trip. Semi-cloned (4/25)

*F-smash - Same animation, different functions. Each hit of Link's is an individually strong move, with the hits not designed to link into each other. The first hit of Toon Link's is a set knockback hit, designed to keep you in place for the second hit, in essence being a true 2-hit attack. Semi-cloned. (4.5/25)

*U-smash - Different animations and functions, not cloned. (4.5/25)

*D-smash - Same animation, different functions. Each hits of Link's is an individually strong blow that hits you vertically. The first hit of Toon Link's is a high base knockback blow that sends you behind to get hit by the second stronger blow, being a 2-hit attack in essence. Semi-cloned. (5/25)

*F-throw - Different animations, but same functions. Both are a weak throw forward with identical trajectories and knockback. Toon Link's is even considered by the game a leg attack like Link's, despite his being a shoulder tackle . Semi-cloned (5.5/25)

*B-throw - Different animations and functions. Not cloned. (5.5/25)

*U-throw - No argument, cloned. (6.5/25)

*D-throw - No argument, cloned. (7.5/25)

*Nair - Different animations and functions. Not cloned. (7.5/25)

*Fair - Different animations and functions. Not cloned. (7.5/25)

*Bair - Different animations and functions. Not cloned. (7.5/25)

*Uair - Same animations and functions. Cloned (8.5/25)

*Dair - Arguably same animation (both stick a sword downward, but Link doesn't dive down like Toon Link), but different functions. Link's is a very powerful vertical blow, while Toon Link's is a [[stall-then-fall]] that meteor smashes. Semi-cloned move. (9/25)

*Neutral special - Same animation, but different functionings. Link's arrows travel fast and hit you horizontally, while Toon Link's arrows travel slowly and hit your vertically. Semi-cloned move. (9.5/25)

*Side special - This is a bit more gray, but the only real thing between the moves are that they're boomerangs, and using the same weapon isn't a mark towards cloning. The boomerangs animate differently, with Link's having a visible whirlwind around it, while Toon Link doesn't have any such special effects. The functioning is also different, with Link's pushing you and pulling in, while Toon Link's just hits you weakly vertically. I find the differences enough to not considered them cloned, though this is very disputable. (9.5/25)

*Up special - Same animation, different functions. Link's is a single hit strong blow on the ground, while Toon Link's is a multi-hitting attack that drags you in, before the final blow hits you weakly away. Semi-cloned. (10/25)

*Down special - Cloned move, no argument. (11/25)

::So overall, he has a rough cloned score of 44%, no where near what you claim. He scores far below the unarguable clones of Melee, even scores below Melee Mario and Luigi, and doesn't score much higher than the semi-clones of Brawl (only Lucas scores more than 10% below him). Even if you count the side specials as semi-cloned, and the other specials as fully cloned, he still only scores a 50%, which is still not near an appropriate amount to call him a fully clone.

::Now address everything, and don't ignore any points, nor ignore the importance of function and make such gross generalisations. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 03:49, 16 June 2013 (EDT)

:::It's not my fault your huge walls of texts, bulleted lists, and general talk page layouts are making this a pain to dredge through. Fine, if you won't listen to reason otherwise, I'll take a few hours to go through it.

:::You think I don't know how to play the game? I've played over 1500 matches solo and 1200+ online. I know what the moves do. Function is not the primary factor of what makes a move cloned.

:::Hitbox is not function. Two moves can have the same hitbox and have totally different knockbacks or damage types. Anything AFTER the opponent stops taking damage from the move is irrelevant. Dr. Mario's f-air is not a meteor smash. Mario's is. That doesn't make them any less cloned.

:::It doesn't matter what they do after they hit the opponent. They both fire a small fire-based projectile that goes in a straight line for nearly the same distance. Ness's just angles slightly when performed in the air. They even use the exact same sprite! Sure they have different poses, but for projectiles that's not as important.

:::You're completely taking my explanation out of context. I was trying to show that having the same animation AND same hitbox determines a cloned move. Both Super Jump Punches hit basically the same distance and angle (luigi's being straighter). But compare, say, Ike, whose up special move throws his sword up, then plunges down. OR kirby's, which fires a projectile. Now look back at the bros and you can clearly see how that move is cloned compared to most other characters.

:::I never said wolf was a clone. And ad hominems and personal attacks do not make you right. I never said "identical". Earlier you complained that I don't see semi-clones, but now you're making the same comparison, I never said two moves had to do the exact same thing to be cloned.

:::Cloning is not about being totally different moves with the same effects. Likewise, having different knockback or damage does NOT matter one bit. In previous games, when moves were cloned, they had a clear source and followed almost the same or very similar animations and hitboxes, with minor effects. 

:::Functional difference, as I have stated, doesn't really matter. You can Clearly see they perform almost exactly the same moves. Granted toon link's dash attack has a slightly flatter arc, but it's clearly copied straight from link. They both are quick, low angled slashes that end abruptly. And before you go claiming that "all dash attacks are the same then" or whatever, look at Ike and Marth, the other swordsmen. Ike brings his sword behind him, then quickly thrusts it forward. Marth draws back, then does a wide slash while sliding. Nobody else in the game has a dash attack like the Links share. Warlock Punch and Falcon punch may be slightly different in animation, but that doesn't matter due to both hitbox and control being the same, as well as both dealing similar damage. They even have the same 180 power up. If you don't accept them as cloned, they're at least semi-cloned. I never said damage is irrelevant, only that animation is most priority. They did change the animation, but clearly it's still the same basic move, just like my PK Fire example.

:::You're completely missing the point. I did not SAY anyone called Dr. Mario not a clone, I said that your reasoning would imply they are not.

:::If I don't respond, the problem does not get fixed. However it's a royal pain to go through this wall of text, as I had initially stated.

:::Oh good, more insults. Yeah calling me a retard totally proves your point.

:::Physics are, like damage, least importance. Kirby and Jigglypuff have similar physics, so what? The only time I would put physics into consideration is as a tiebreak of sorts.

:::Dtilt: "Same animation". There you go. Cloned move. Same animation, same hitbox, the rest doesn't matter for this. (3.5/25? where is the 25 from? I'm only going out of 22 because 22 attacks with final smash.)

:::Dash attack I already mentioned. At the least, they're semi-cloned. Enough for a point in my tally. 

:::fsmash. Yes toon link's is at a flatter arc. Yes it's clearly copied over from link. Point. 

:::dsmash. I stopped reading after "Same animations". Cloned. It's no effort to simply tweak some statistics. It's still the same movement. 

:::Fthrow. Kick vs shoulder ram. Despite the sticker glitch, this is different enough to not be cloned. And most forward throws in the game have identical trajectories and knockback (arent those the same thing?)

:::Dair is cloned. Link plummets almost the same way if you fastfall first. It's just a minor added statistic tacked on to an already used move.

:::Neutral special. You're kidding, right? minor speed variance and minor knockback variance. Whatever, they're both arrows. Cloned. And before you say "Well pit has arrows too", pit's are controllable, can aim any of three directions while charging, and move in a far different manner.

:::Side special. I'll give this a semi-cloned. They are performed AND controlled the exact same way, though they have different models and uses, as well as the gale boomerang being much different on the return trip.

:::Up special. Clearly the same move with a minor difference in NUMBER of hits and not so much the actual damage area. Cloned.

:::So, in summary, they share jab, ftilt, utilt, dtilt, dash, fsmash, dsmash, uthrow, dthrow, uair, dair, standard special, side special (.5 I guess), up special, down special, final smash. That makes a total of 15.5 out of 22. Which equals 70%. Not as much as I thought, but still EASILY the most cloned characters in the game, and EASILY qualified as a "true clone". Though I agree much less than the clones of melee, still far more than anyone in brawl SHOULD have been.

:::There, that's everything from that huge block of statistics. If you want me to read and reply to everything else posted the past week, I'll do it later. To be honest, my main point today was proving that Toon Link is in a class all his own, and he is the only true clone of Brawl.- [[Special:Contributions/71.87.116.224|71.87.116.224]] 14:23, 16 June 2013 (EDT)

::::If you don't like huge walls of text, feel free to not reply to these posts.

::::If Mario's fair meteor smashes and Dr. Mario's does not, that is a huge functioning difference which means they are not identical. Functioning is important.

::::Ness's PK Fire does not angle slightly, it angles 45 degrees. That is not slight. And Ness's PK Fire hits multiple times, which is a different functioning and hitboxes than Lucas'.

::::If you say that hitboxes are important in determining function, guess what, Toon Link's dash attack has less range than Link's. Having the same animation AND function determines a cloned move. Also, Mario and Luigi's up specials actually have different hitboxes, Luigi has a powerful sweetspot at the startup, and Mario's delivers multiple hits. That's a difference in hitboxes. We're not comparing the cloned moves to the moves of other characters, it's whether they have the same animation and functioning.

::::Whether two attacks do the exact same thing is an important part of what makes a move cloned. 

::::Different knockback or damage matters a lot, that's different functioning. Stop ignoring this crucial piece of information.

::::Fox and Falco have a more similar dash attack than Link and Toon Link. And sure, it's the same basic move, but you are overlooking the details of it, such as the amount of knockback and functioning. The details are important. OT is saying that Warlock and Falcon Punch are semi-cloned, if not cloned. Animation and functioning are of similar levels of priority, and you say that damage is not irrelevant, but act like it is.

::::It's a royal pain to go through your walls of text as well, especially since you keep ignoring what we say about how functioning is important.

::::To address your main point:

::::Physics? Toon Link moves fast, Link moves slow, that's a big difference. Physics is important in determine cloneship. Kirby and Jigglypuff in SSB have the same physics, that's one of the defining reasons they can be considered semi-clones. The same goes for Ness and Lucas. 

::::Down tilt: Same animation, ''but different knockback angles''. Stop saying that function is not important in determining cloneship, because it is. 

::::Dash attack: If you say they are semi-cloned, then that should be a half a point, because a semi-cloned move is worth .5 on the chart. And if you think it's enough to be a cloned move, look at the difference in '''functioning'''. They are not exactly the same to be considered cloned moves.

::::Fsmash: Again, '''functioning difference.'''

::::Dsmash: '''different function'''. It's not about whether the developers copy-pasted a character's coding.

::::Forward throw: same '''function'''. And no, not all forward throws have identical knockback and trajectory. Knockback and trajectory are not the same. Two attacks can have the same trajectory but different knockback.

::::Dair: Different '''function'''. There's also a difference in the way they plummet, Toon Link's [[Stall-Then-Fall|falls faster]], and you can't control Toon Link's trajectory until he hits. 

::::Neutral special: The slower speed and different knockback angle is a difference in '''function'''.

::::Up special: The number of hits is a difference in '''function'''. It's not "minor".

::::Which equates to much less than a 15.5 out of 22. Being the most cloned characters in the game has nothing to do with whether they are clones or not.

::::Until you understand that '''functioning''' is important in determining cloneship, don't reply here and waste our time. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 15:32, 16 June 2013 (EDT)
::::"''It's not my fault your huge walls of texts, bulleted lists, and general talk page layouts are making this a pain to dredge through. Fine, if you won't listen to reason otherwise, I'll take a few hours to go through it.''"

::::You're the one who won't listen to reason. How many fucking times have we explained function to you and you keep ignoring it?

::::"''You think I don't know how to play the game? I've played over 1500 matches solo and 1200+ online. I know what the moves do. Function is not the primary factor of what makes a move cloned.''"

::::If you did play that much, you would know that a move's function '''determines how it actually works'''. Stop acting like the same casuals who call Wolf a clone.

::::"''Hitbox is not function. Two moves can have the same hitbox and have totally different knockbacks or damage types. Anything AFTER the opponent stops taking damage from the move is irrelevant. Dr. Mario's f-air is not a meteor smash. Mario's is. That doesn't make them any less cloned.''"

::::Alright dude, you're just being flat out retarded now. What the hitbox does '''is the function'''. Each hitbox has a damage value, knockback values, a trajectory it knocks opponents in, and a bunch of other values determining its effects when it hits. What happens after the opponent gets hit '''is determined by the hitbox'''. Having the same hitbox would mean '''the hitboxes have the same values''', and would thus '''have the same exact effect on the opponent'''. A move having its hitbox radically altered (like Doc's fair) does make the move less cloned, as it does not work like the move it was cloned from. Hence why such moves are '''considered semi-cloned moves'''.

::::"''You're completely taking my explanation out of context. I was trying to show that having the same animation AND same hitbox determines a cloned move. Both Super Jump Punches hit basically the same distance and angle (luigi's being straighter). But compare, say, Ike, whose up special move throws his sword up, then plunges down. OR kirby's, which fires a projectile. Now look back at the bros and you can clearly see how that move is cloned compared to most other characters''"

::::They don't have the same hitbox you fucking idiot. And you completely ignored what I pointed out about the up smashes. The Mario Bros' Jump Punches don't even have the same animation, Mario punches diagonally, while Luigi punchs straight up. And their hitboxes are radically different.

::::"''I never said wolf was a clone. And ad hominems and personal attacks do not make you right. I never said "identical". Earlier you complained that I don't see semi-clones, but now you're making the same comparison, I never said two moves had to do the exact same thing to be cloned.''"

::::I don't know what you're going on about here. I compared you to the people who call Wolf a clone, as just as they get pedantic about Wolf's specials having a similar motif as Fox's, you're getting pedantic about a move's animation (and aren't understanding what a hitbox is), with both them and you showing a gross misunderstanding of the game. And you're saying a move just has to have the "same animation" to be cloned, completely ignoring the value of the move's functions.

::::"''Cloning is not about being totally different moves with the same effects. Likewise, having different knockback or damage does NOT matter one bit. In previous games, when moves were cloned, they had a clear source and followed almost the same or very similar animations and hitboxes, with minor effects.''"

::::Cloning is a gray subject, there is no black or white to it, and it is done to varying degrees. Animation is just one part of it, the move's function is hugely important, and if the knockback and damage vary enough to where it changes a move's function, then yes it fucking matters. In Melee with the Melee clones, guess what, not only did their attacks have their animation cloned, but the vast majority of their attacks '''had the same function''' as the move they were cloned from. As a result, they played identically to the character they were cloned from, thus fitting the bill of a clone. Stop being stupid.

::::"''Functional difference, as I have stated, doesn't really matter. You can Clearly see they perform almost exactly the same moves.''"

::::If the move's were "the same", they wouldn't just have the same animation, but they would '''do the same exact thing, with the same effects'''.

::::"''Granted toon link's dash attack has a slightly flatter arc, but it's clearly copied straight from link. They both are quick, low angled slashes that end abruptly.''"

::::Only the animation is copied from Link, the move's hitboxes were drastically altered to do different things. Thus a semi-cloned move. Stop ignoring function.

::::"''And before you go claiming that "all dash attacks are the same then" or whatever, look at Ike and Marth, the other swordsmen. Ike brings his sword behind him, then quickly thrusts it forward. Marth draws back, then does a wide slash while sliding. Nobody else in the game has a dash attack like the Links share.''"

::::This is irrelevant. Many characters have dash attacks with similar animations (Yoshi and Pikachu, DK and Charizard, etc.). And I go to it again you keeping ignoring it; '''''function is just as important as animation'''''.

::::"''Warlock Punch and Falcon punch may be slightly different in animation, but that doesn't matter due to both hitbox and control being the same, as well as both dealing similar damage. They even have the same 180 power up. If you don't accept them as cloned, they're at least semi-cloned.''"

::::They don't only have "slightly different animation", there are only so many ways you can throw a punch. Are we gonna say Sonic's f-smash, Bowser's f-tilt, and other punch based moves are cloned because they're punches forward? And hey guess what, you know how their hitboxes produce similar effects (hit opponents very powerfully in the basic horizontal trajectory), and both have the 180 thing? '''''That's function''''', and here you are using it to justify calling Warlock Punch and Falcon Punch cloned. '''Stop being hypocritical'''.

::::"''You're completely missing the point. I did not SAY anyone called Dr. Mario not a clone, I said that your reasoning would imply they are not.''"

::::Strawman and red herring, if my reasoning would result in them not being considered clones, then just how the hell they did scores an 88% on my charts here? '''Did you even fucking read them?''' Guess what, while some of their moves having function differences (fair, f-smash), the vast majority of their moves '''had their function cloned'''.

::::"''Oh good, more insults. Yeah calling me a retard totally proves your point.''"

::::I will call you out on your stupidity. Perhaps look at what you're doing, before whining about that?

::::"''If I don't respond, the problem does not get fixed. However it's a royal pain to go through this wall of text, as I had initially stated.''"

::::If you can't handle it, '''don't respond then'''. It just makes it look like you're half assing.

::::"''Physics are, like damage, least importance. Kirby and Jigglypuff have similar physics, so what? The only time I would put physics into consideration is as a tiebreak of sorts.''"

::::And this is exactly why I question how much you actually play this game. If physics don't matter, what is a major reason why the [[space animals]] play so differently from Mario? If physics didn't matter, why do Ness and Lucas do poorly in competitive play because their physics? If physics didn't matter, Mario and Fox would feel just like each other, just with different moves. Even in your example, Kirby and Jigglypuff don't have similar physics outside SSB64 (where guess what, they're considered semi-cloned in part of that). Physics are a huge part, and you can't fucking ignore them. Don't brush them off.

::::Ack responded to the moves, so I won't go through that. However, I'm warning you now. You already shown a biased agenda, by using function to claim Warlock Punch being a cloned move of Falcon Punch, then hypocritically completely ignoring it to label Toon Link a clone of Link. If you keep ignoring function (and by extension physics) when it goes against your claim of what you want to call a clone, you'll risk being considered a troll (as you keep egging this on, while just blatantly ignoring what we're saying when it goes against Toon Link being a clone), and you may risk a block for being disruptive. 

::::Also, if you think function and physics don't matter, look up Toon Link and Link pros playing their characters in tournament, and explain then how Toon Link plays remarkably different than Link? If they didn't, and animation was everything, Toon Link would play identically to Link, and you could just hop from one to the other with little loss of skill.

::::I also strongly recommend you see this [[Mario (SSBB)#Moveset|this]], so you can see what goes into making a hitbox, before responding any farther. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 20:56, 16 June 2013 (EDT)

== SSB4 clone chart ==

I know you're busy in real life, but I was wondering if you ever intend to make a clone chart for SSB4. [[User:Magiciandude|Magiciandude]] ([[User talk:Magiciandude|talk]]) 14:35, 17 July 2015 (EDT)
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