Editing User talk:Miles of SmashWiki/Ordering

Since you effectively asked for comments, here's mine.

This is altogether not a bad system. All of the fighters and universes are organized in a methodical pattern that tries to emulate the in-game ones as closely as possible without being game-specific. However, it leads to some things I disagree with, the most important of which are:
#It organizes the ''fighters'' as opposed to the ''characters'', which in my opinion is the inferior option.
#The SSB4 stage-only universes should be intermixed, not separate.
#The placement of the Wario universe makes sense in the system, but is otherwise hard to rationalize being away from the Mario group.
[[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Multifaceted 12:29, 12 February 2015 (EST)
:The big issue with the "fighter" vs. "character" systems is that it feels very weird to me to break up the chronology of Smash introduction. In my mind, Lucina has no business coming before Ike who debuted in Smash earlier. Although I'm not quite sure where you're coming from on that subject given that it seems like you treat Roy and Lucina as "fighters" by sorting them next to Marth, so maybe I'm missing something in your thought process.
:The stage universes aren't a huge deal, but the ordering of those isn't particularly crucial either way since the lists involving both SSB4 sets will rarely be mixed.
:I thought you might disagree with Wario's placement. The main reason for that in my mind was the fact that Wario's representation in Smash is almost entirely WarioWare, which is much more separate from Mario than, say, Wario Land. I would also find it jarring to interrupt the chronology listing by putting a Brawl-debut universe in with 64-debut universes. The only one I moved was Yoshi, and the reason for that was that it seems to have been more closely attached to Mario than DK or Wario, to the point where Yoshi appears between Mario characters on either side on SSB4's CSS. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 14:33, 12 February 2015 (EST)
::Honestly, here's what I would do to mix the two ways of ordering: keep the layout, but have the different head sprites in each section, like so:

::{| class="wikitable"
!Series!!{{gameIcon|ssb|24px}}!!{{gameIcon|ssbm|24px}}!!{{gameIcon|ssbb|24px}}!!{{gameIcon|ssb4|24px}}
|-
|{{symbol|mario|24px}} || {{head|Mario|g=SSB|s=24px}}{{head|Luigi|g=SSB|s=24px}} || {{head|Mario|g=SSBM|s=24px}}{{head|Luigi|g=SSBM|s=24px}}{{head|Peach|g=SSBM|s=24px}}{{head|Bowser|g=SSBM|s=24px}}{{head|Dr. Mario|g=SSBM|s=24px}} || {{head|Mario|g=SSBB|s=24px}}{{head|Luigi|g=SSBB|s=24px}}{{head|Peach|g=SSBB|s=24px}}{{head|Bowser|g=SSBB|s=24px}} || {{head|Mario|g=SSB4-3|s=24px}}{{head|Luigi|g=SSB4-3|s=24px}}{{head|Peach|g=SSB4-3|s=24px}}{{head|Bowser|g=SSB4-3|s=24px}}{{head|Dr. Mario|g=SSB4-3|s=24px}}{{head|Rosalina|g=SSB4-3|s=24px}}{{head|Bowser Jr.|g=SSB4-3|s=24px}}
|-
|}

::That way, it could still have the layout you want, Miles, while incorporating the character organization Toomai wants (in a sense). [[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]][[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan the'''</span>]] [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aura Master'''</span>]] 14:51, 12 February 2015 (EST)
:::...I think you misunderstood something. That's how I would list them by game, yeah. I intended for my character list to be read left-to-right, row-by-row, with relevant characters included as appropriate. I sorted by game of debut to illustrate where my ordering system came from, rather than to say "there's no Brawl Mario characters". if that makes sense. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 15:23, 12 February 2015 (EST)
::::Here's my confusion, though: with the way you have it set up, it implies that, still using the Mario universe as an example, the Doc is in Brawl. Granted, most people would know that off hand, but to me, that's just what I potentially see being read. [[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]][[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan the'''</span>]] [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aura Master'''</span>]] 16:51, 12 February 2015 (EST)
:::::I think you may be misreading the chart. All it's there to do is indicate the order of the characters, and Dr. Mario by my ordering scheme would come after Bowser but before Rosalina. The row is intended to be read left-to-right as an ordering system based on debut, not as a "so-and-so appears in this game". [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 17:00, 12 February 2015 (EST)

:Wario's Smash Bros. presence was always a bad egg in more ways than one, and I find no real fault with your rationale for him.
:Lucina was always a problem, as can be seen by the early discussion on my order's page. Currently she's next to Marth due to being a descendant (character-based); being a clone (fighter-based) is an additional point, not a decider.
:"Chronology of Smash introduction" is frankly an unimportant detail to me; there's a reason it's way down at #7 in my order's list of axioms. I respect the opposite opinion, but it's a factor I just don't really care about. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Breegull 18:05, 12 February 2015 (EST)
::It's tough for me to know what do from here, since that's the primary criterion I used to sort these lists. What is a good course of action going forward? Maybe some kind of this-or-that proposition? [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 18:09, 12 February 2015 (EST)
:::Personally, I highly prefer this new ordering system to the current one. The current system seems rather random, and this is much more streamlined and orderly. <span style="font-family:AR JULIAN; font-size:12pt">[[User:ChuckNorris24|<span style="color:red">Chuck</span>]][[User talk:ChuckNorris24|<span style="color:pink">Norris</span>]]</span>[[File:24.png|23px]]  18:53, 12 February 2015 (EST)
::I mean, I admit to being biased (having used my order for the better part of ten years), but this seems like nothing more than change-for-the-sake-of-change to me. Both orders have their ups and downs and I don't really see the benefit in converting wiki pages from one to the other. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Quintonic 22:21, 12 February 2015 (EST)
:::I guess what I'm getting at is the idea of "is one of these clearer or more useful for people besides the admins designing the scheme?" [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 00:02, 13 February 2015 (EST)

==Changing the ordering==

:I know this hasn't been active in 6 years, but I thought I would throw my hat into the ring. I agree with Miles with having every series and fighter be organized by their ''Smash'' debut, but I think they should be organized by playable reveals, regardless of their availability. For example, I think that Lucina should be placed before Robin due to her splash card being shown first in their reveals. ''Wii Fit'' could also be placed before ''Punch-Out!!'' since the Wii Fit Trainer was revealed to be playable before Little Mac. I know Little Mac was an Assist Trophy in ''Brawl'', but the game doesn't even count it as an actual universe since ''Punch-Out!!'' didn't have a series symbol in ''Brawl''. ''Yoshi'' could be placed in between ''Metroid'' and ''Kirby'' like in the games, unless placing him with the ''Mario'' series looks nicer (i.e. In a character table to prevent a character from a series with multiple veterans getting cut off from the rest). ''F-Zero'' and ''EarthBound'' are a sticky situation as ''Smash'' consistently places ''F-Zero'' before ''EarthBound'', but ''Ultimate''{{'}}s fighter numbers place Ness before Captain Falcon. If I would have to choose, I would keep ''F-Zero'' before ''EarthBound'' as even ''Ultimate''{{'}}s stage selection screen and sound test still order it like this. Other than that, I feel the fighters should be ordered by their fighter numbers (minus Ness, Captain Falcon, and Echo Fighters) as they pertain to their playable debuts in ''Smash''. Yes, even having Sheik placed before Zelda as Zelda was the only starter character in ''Melee'' who wasn't revealed to be playable at E3 2001. [[User:Diddy Kongstar|Diddy Kongstar]] ([[User talk:Diddy Kongstar|talk]]) 01:04, April 13, 2021 (EDT)
: I 100% agree that Lucina should be before Robin (mostly because even Lucina's SSB4 trophy and Mario Maker costume are listed before Robin's, as well as her being the only first-party unlockable to be revealed before launch before unlockable characters stopped being kept a secret) and Wii Fit before Little Mac (since the time frame between their reveals was months, not minutes), and do think Miles is being far too adamant about keeping the ordering his way to the point where both you and him start edit warring, especially considering Miles has been making similar changes like this for years according to the page history, but I disagree with the rest of your proposed changes. Despite Ultimate listing Ness before Captain Falcon, the stage and music selections in evey game, including in Ultimate, lists F-Zero before Earthbound. Although Yoshi is counted as its own series in Smash, the games literally feature the same characters, so they're not really different enough to be so spread out on the wiki tables. Sheik was revealed before Zelda, but Melee and Brawl consider Zelda the default despite her later reveal, so logically the default should be listed first, even if she was technically revealed later. Mewtwo was developed before Pichu both in Pokemon and in Smash due to Pichu being a clone, and putting Young Link after Ganondorf lets Young Link be next to Toon Link. It's unconstructive that the two of you edit warred, and if either of you wants to change it, it would be beneficial to discuss it with either a third party (which I have already given my opinion for a compromise), each other, or both. [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 20:03, April 13, 2021 (EDT)

::I agreed with having F-Zero being listed before EarthBound for the reasons you gave. Having Yoshi in between Metroid and Kirby is to preserve the series order that each game had them in. Smash 4’s character selection screen was the only time Yoshi has been placed within the Mario series fighters (between Bowser and Rosalina). While Mewtwo has been developed before Pichu, it requires a bit of Smash knowledge for people to know that. Keeping it similar to the fighter numbers makes it easier for the reader to understand when each fighter was added to the series as Ultimate already provided us the order of when each fighter was revealed (barring Echo Fighters of course). It’s more for the sake of the reader, especially when several other pages use a similar ordering system to the fighter numbers. [[User:Diddy Kongstar|Diddy Kongstar]] ([[User talk:Diddy Kongstar|talk]]) 21:45, April 13, 2021 (EDT)

Any system necessarily makes certain compromises and has its own subjective conclusions about which things to prioritize, especially since I've aimed to make a system that works equally across all Smash games, not just the newest one. I've tried to lay out my decision-making process to be as clear and straightforward as possible and have tried to stick to one listing order to keep things consistent. I mainly have tried not to "put my foot down" or be otherwise in-your-face if others disagreed, but certain decisions (such as putting [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Template:SSBU_character_table&diff=prev&oldid=1565721 Dedede before Meta Knight]) make me feel like I need to step in because they are unambiguously not how Smash has basically ever done this - and thus, it is pretty clearly not how we should do things, regardless of my own personal preferences. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 12:49, April 14, 2021 (EDT)

:With Dedede before Meta Knight, I thought you were going for more of a character debut order within their games for characters who debuted in the same Smash game (i.e. Zelda before Sheik, Robin before Lucina, and Punch-Out!! before Wii Fit). Plus, there was [[:File:SSBWiiU Character Select.jpg|Smash 4's character select screen]] which had King Dedede placed before Meta Knight, which is what I thought you were going for with the original order. Ordering by development is difficult to do as well as we either don't know when each fighter was added or it contradicts reveal or in-game orders, like how Bowser is placed before Peach in the instance slots, or how Wario is placed before Meta Knight within the instance slots. Reveals are a more common way of knowing when each fighter becomes playable, as there are times where characters make a major appearance somewhere despite not being playable, like how characters like Ridley and Wolf appear in Melee's opening (and the opening was very likely made before Ganondorf was even added to the game). With an official ordering system, it prevents confusion with ordering, even if there are contradictions in previous games. [[User:Diddy Kongstar|Diddy Kongstar]] ([[User talk:Diddy Kongstar|talk]]) 13:30, April 14, 2021 (EDT)
::Look, the core point I'm trying to make is that, by necessity, every decision here is going to be controversial to somebody and I don't want to have big drawn-out arguments over it. Just, as a request, not a demand, please try to avoid making a giant fuss about the exact order because it is a situation which is basically impossible to resolve in a satisfactory way for everyone involved. That's not an "admin telling you what to do", that's a personal "I don't have the energy to deal with arguing about this". [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 13:40, April 14, 2021 (EDT)

::The only question I have left is how the table order was Young Link/Ganondorf, Pichu/Mewtwo, Lucina/Robin, and Wii Fit Trainer/Little Mac before the edits for a while without anyone noticing? That was why I thought Smash debuts had to do with the ordering. [[User:Diddy Kongstar|Diddy Kongstar]] ([[User talk:Diddy Kongstar|talk]]) 23:41, April 15, 2021 (EDT)

== Hey ==

Why did you put [[Punch-Out]] before [[Animal Crossing]] when Little Mac was announced after Villager? Don’t give me no Assist Trophy excuse. [[Special:Contributions/174.55.24.64|174.55.24.64]] 19:09, 15 February 2019 (EST)
**Why isn’t Wario with the Mario characters as well? [[Special:Contributions/174.55.24.64|174.55.24.64]] 23:37, September 5, 2020 (EDT)
:I am not Miles but Wario is in his own universe, the Wario universe. His wario-man final smashes all originate from wario universe. [[User:S3AHAWK|<span style="font-family: Arial;color:Blue; 0px">S3AHAWK</span>]] ([[User talk:S3AHAWK|''<span style=" font-family: Comic Sans MS;color: Red;">talk</span>'']])[[File:S3AHAWK_Signature_icon_1.png|20px]] 23:40, September 5, 2020 (EDT)
::To answer your question, Miles said this: "While Wario is sometimes moved near Mario elements, his series is more frequently grouped with the other Brawl newcomer series.".

::Also, to IP, please indent your comment with two colons (::) rather than two asterisks (**). [[File:SmashTurtlesSig1.png|20px]][[User:SuperSmashTurtles|<span style="color: green;">'''SuperSmashTurtles'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:SuperSmashTurtles|<span style="color: lightgreen;">'''Turtle Tribe'''</span>]][[File:SmashTurtlesSig2.png|20px]] 23:47, September 5, 2020 (EDT)

== ''Punch-Out!!'' before ''Wii Fit'' ==

So I've noticed when you order universes that are of the same availability (starter or unlockable) and debut installment, you tend to use stuff such as the stage selection screens and trophy lists to determine the order. However, you seem to have fully ignored that when determining the order of ''Wii Fit'' and ''Punch-Out!!'' <s>and also ''Xenoblade'', but the miscellaneous in-game orders always listed it after the other starter ''Smash 4'' universes, so whatever</s>. While you do have valid points for ordering ''Punch-Out!!'' first (the whole "prior representation" vs. "no prior representation" thing, as well as it being an older series), it does seem rather inconsistent on how you didn't bring up any of the in-game orders when talking about the two (as far as I remember, ''Smash 4'' constantly lists ''Wii Fit'' before ''Punch-Out!!'', such as the trophy lists, stage selection screens, and Sound Test. The only exception I know of is the CSS in both versions, neither of which follows the standard order of ''Smash'' universes), especially since you've used these to order ''EarthBound'' and ''Game & Watch'' after ''F-Zero'' and ''Fire Emblem'' respectively despite the former two both being older. [[File:SmashTurtlesSig1.png|20px]][[User:SuperSmashTurtles|<span style="color: green;">'''SuperSmashTurtles'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:SuperSmashTurtles|<span style="color: lightgreen;">'''Turtle Tribe'''</span>]][[File:SmashTurtlesSig2.png|20px]] 21:35, April 25, 2021 (EDT)
:From what I've seen, I think he lists ''Punch-Out!!'' before ''Wii Fit'' because of the Little Mac Assist Trophy in ''Brawl'' and the Boxing Ring stage being revealed before Wii Fit Studio (although Boxing Ring was only shown with its ''Smash Bros.'' design rather than the ''Punch-Out!!'' design. I do agree that ''Wii Fit'' should be ordered before ''Punch-Out!!'' since a sole Assist Trophy is really considered major representation (Punch-Out!! didn't even have a series symbol in ''Brawl'' with a similar case even happening in ''Ultimate'' with Spring Man before Min Min was added) and would just lead to countless arguments when ''Punch-Out!!'' has never been placed before ''Wii Fit'' in ''Smash''. [[User:Diddy Kongstar|Diddy Kongstar]] ([[User talk:Diddy Kongstar|talk]]) 22:01, April 25, 2021 (EDT)
::The whole Assist Trophy thing is exactly what I meant when I said "prior representation vs. no prior representation", though I guess I really could've just been straight rather than using unnecessarily snappy wordplay. [[File:SmashTurtlesSig1.png|20px]][[User:SuperSmashTurtles|<span style="color: green;">'''SuperSmashTurtles'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:SuperSmashTurtles|<span style="color: lightgreen;">'''Turtle Tribe'''</span>]][[File:SmashTurtlesSig2.png|20px]] 22:12, April 25, 2021 (EDT)

I've already stated that I don't feel particularly eager to argue the merits of this. I understand it's a bit of a messy situation, but please respect that. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 22:52, April 25, 2021 (EDT)
:You don't feel eager to argue it, but you sure seem very keen on [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Template:SSBU_character_table&diff=prev&oldid=1748645 keeping it this way]. It's honestly to the point where I think arguing this is pretty warranted due to how many times you and Diddy Kongstar have reverted each other. 

:I don't feel particularly strongly about the other order changes, since I can see the merits of all of them (the only other maybe borderline one is Lucina, but that is just a weird case of her being the only 1st party unlockable-but-not-secret character before Ultimate made all newcomers unlockable), but Punch Out before Wii Fit actually requires mental gymnastics outside of the games where they debuted as playable characters that I don't think make sense to use it in that order. Both smash 4 trophies and ultimate spirits, as well as sound tests in all games with them, have punch out before wii fit. Contrary to what this page says, I can't actually think of any instance where punch out is before wii fit in any ingame instance besides the ssb4 character select, but then if that's the case Duck Hunt would be way before Xenoblade, except no because ssb4's character select screen was a mess. 

:Something I just thought of: say, for example, Takamaru became playable instead of an assist trophy. He's been an assist trophy since smash 4, way before Inkling and Min Min became playable, and his game came out way before theirs as well. By the logic of making punch out before wii fit due to the actual game debuts and mac being an assist in brawl, wouldn't Takamaru be arbitrarily between the smash 4 and ultimate characters by this logic? Obviously, Takamaru isn't playable yet, but hopefully this should convince you that the assist trophy and series debut reasons are not as great as actually looking at the games they debut in.
[[User:Unnamed anon|Unnamed anon]] ([[User talk:Unnamed anon|talk]]) 19:04, December 22, 2022 (EST)
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