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| :I did try to adjust it to the best of my ability with my most recent update, so I think it works for now. In the future please remember the general rules of the Manual of Style's [[SmashWiki:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_Watch|"Words to Watch"]]; I usually refrain from adding strong statements, and if any summary feels like it's trying to convince me of a point too hard (eg. "This character has a fantastic unbeatable neutral game"), that is a good indication that the language is too strong. [[User:Mexi|Mexi]] ([[User talk:Mexi#top|talk]]) 08:09, May 23, 2024 (EDT) | | :I did try to adjust it to the best of my ability with my most recent update, so I think it works for now. In the future please remember the general rules of the Manual of Style's [[SmashWiki:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_Watch|"Words to Watch"]]; I usually refrain from adding strong statements, and if any summary feels like it's trying to convince me of a point too hard (eg. "This character has a fantastic unbeatable neutral game"), that is a good indication that the language is too strong. [[User:Mexi|Mexi]] ([[User talk:Mexi#top|talk]]) 08:09, May 23, 2024 (EDT) |
| ::Got it. I also noticed you were the one to change it earlier this month, and I was happy with the changes you made there, so reverting to that one could work, too, but then you'd have to redo the fluff trimming, so maybe not. [[User:Yo'ster|Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 12:21, May 23, 2024 (EDT) | | ::Got it. I also noticed you were the one to change it earlier this month, and I was happy with the changes you made there, so reverting to that one could work, too, but then you'd have to redo the fluff trimming, so maybe not. [[User:Yo'ster|Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 12:21, May 23, 2024 (EDT) |
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| == Ganondorf page ==
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| Hey, can we slow down a bit and discuss this? [[User:Yo'ster|Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 13:38, October 18, 2024 (EDT)
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| :Sure, do let me know what you feel should stay on the page. [[User:Mexi|Mexi]] ([[User talk:Mexi#top|talk]]) 14:10, October 18, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::For starters, "at the very bottom of " instead of "last": Was a small touch that was merely for variety, since "last" had already been recently used to refer to his tier placing.
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| Next up, I replaced "100%" with 90% because I thought a double digit number would better sell the idea of the smash attacks being strong. Not a necessary change, though.
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| "with forward and up smash being among the strongest" instead of "with forward smash being one of the strongest": Ganon's got a super strong up smash, too, so bringing that up alongside f-smash made sense to me.
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| "exert immense pressure on platforms and ledges alike." instead of "cover an entire platform above him and hit ledge hangs with the front hit.": Just some wordsmithing. I think it's phrased better that way.
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| Any issues with these 1st few? [[User:Yo'ster|Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 16:27, October 18, 2024 (EDT)
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| :The first two are good, and I feel like I just forgot to copy them because I used the revert button. For the last one I am fine too; I simply wanted to avoid fluff terms, as mentioned previously in the discussion we had above this (on the same page).
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| :Also, I hope that you take my edits in good faith. In general, my issue is that a lot of summary sections have become overly long because they go way too indepth for a summary section (to the point you have to scroll down to see all of it). A summary should concisely explain a character without turning into a text wall, so I want to avoid that for pages that haven't reached that problem yet. If there's any other changes you feel might be too long, you might want to add them to the Attributes section since that's where infodumping is usually done. [[User:Mexi|Mexi]] ([[User talk:Mexi#top|talk]]) 04:01, October 19, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::I think what happens with me a lot is that I see some of that summary stuff that goes into some specifics but doesn't tell the full story and try to add more info, so then it sort of turns into an info-dump, when it'd probably be better to not list any details in the summary rather than only include like half of them.
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| Okay. Now to address a more significant change: The addition of range as a selling point. You're telling me Ganon's range is bad? It's good though. The only move of his I can think of with bad range is grab. I guess back air's is bad for superheavy standards and overall unimpressive, but pretty much all of his aerials and tilts cover a good arc or distance. What's the thought process behind it being "one of his worst traits"? [[User:Yo'ster|Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 07:34, October 19, 2024 (EDT)
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| :My answer would be to check the attributes section for Ganondorf: there's a whole section talking about his poor reach, problematic hitboxes (including blind spots), and poor grab range. Those points have been written ages ago, so it's quite well known - the problem isn't really that his range isn't good, but the combination of everything else collectively just outweighs that range advantage. For example, neutral attack has pretty decent range, but it's slow, the hitbox lasts two frames, is only safe at the furthest hitbox, and you can crouch under it, so the range advantage isn't that great. It's the reason why he has a horrendous neutral game after all. Also, in the grand scheme of things, his range is also just merely okay for a melee fighter when ''Ultimate'' introduced a lot of fighters with much better effective range than he does.
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| :Instead of suggesting that his overall range is good, we could come into a compromise by adding that he does have some really good attacks that stand out for their range and hitboxes. Down tilt, neutral aerial and up aerial come to mind, and I have an idea on how to word it. [[User:Mexi|Mexi]] ([[User talk:Mexi#top|talk]]) 07:52, October 19, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::I mean... I guess that follows.
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| As for "taking an incredibly menacing advantage state", Having so many big strong moves makes for really nasty platform, ledge, and corner pressure, and nair is great for edgeguards. I felt like that positive was overlooked.
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| "terribly slow movement and lack of any especially fast attack" instead of "terrible frame data": In terms of shield safety, startup, and end lag, a lot of his moves are a lot better than one might expect. The real problem is that he doesn't have a good "get off me" tool or combo breaker, so even his fast moves come up short against your typical frame 3-4 jab. [[User:Yo'ster|Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 10:21, October 19, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::Mexi? [[User:Yo'ster|Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 20:42, October 27, 2024 (EDT)
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| Sorry for the really long delay in replies, there are quite a lot of things I have to do in real life this and next month, so honestly I might not be able to continue the discussion further. As of now feel free to tinker around with the Ganondorf page again, and I'll edit anything I feel might be too strongly worded. Apologies for the long wait. [[User:Mexi|Mexi]] ([[User talk:Mexi#top|talk]]) 01:26, November 12, 2024 (EST)
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