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| I’m sorry for spam-like edits I made on SmashWiki. I promise you that I’m not a vandal. [[Special:Contributions/174.55.24.64|174.55.24.64]] 16:54, June 6, 2022 (EDT) | | I’m sorry for spam-like edits I made on SmashWiki. I promise you that I’m not a vandal. [[Special:Contributions/174.55.24.64|174.55.24.64]] 16:54, June 6, 2022 (EDT) |
| :You're missing the point. It's not about whether you're spamming or a vandal. The points you have been making have constantly been redundant or irrelevant, and from what I can tell it's because you're enthusiastic about adding anything that you discover, even if it has no reason being there. I'm telling you to take a step back and consider whether something is necessary and correct before adding it. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 21:46, June 6, 2022 (EDT) | | :You're missing the point. It's not about whether you're spamming or a vandal. The points you have been making have constantly been redundant or irrelevant, and from what I can tell it's because you're enthusiastic about adding anything that you discover, even if it has no reason being there. I'm telling you to take a step back and consider whether something is necessary and correct before adding it. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 21:46, June 6, 2022 (EDT) |
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| Hello, I'm Massow.I just logged in recently, so I'm not sure if this is the right way to send a message, but I think it's better than nothing, so I'll send it.
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| First, I'm sorry. I sometimes use Shion's Joker, but I didn't know that the tournaments he used weren't listed on the Smash Wiki, so I added it in an edit without realizing it.
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| I don't want to cause you any trouble. So, in order to send you the correct information, I check if the that fighter is used on the Smash Wiki before saving the changes, and if it's appropriate, I save it, and if it's not appropriate, I don't save it, so I send it with the right judgment.
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| Finally, I have a question. A while ago I changed Carmelo and listed Shulk as his other Smash characters, but was that the right decision? Sorry for the long message
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| == [[Special:Diff/1757799|This edit summary]] == | | == [[Special:Diff/1757799|This edit summary]] == |
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| :Second, aside from looking similar and having similar skillsets, what does Zero Suit Samus have to do with Yang? They're two completely different characters from two completely different franchises, so not only is your trivia point literally doing nothing but comparing two characters of no relation, but you could also make the same point with any blonde-hair fighter in any media (and there are a ton of that, such as characters from [https://www.giantbomb.com/profile/lightdemoncodeh/lists/work-in-progress-list-of-blonde-females-in-video-g/64135/ this list I just pulled up]), which instantly makes the trivia point moot and irrelevant. | | :Second, aside from looking similar and having similar skillsets, what does Zero Suit Samus have to do with Yang? They're two completely different characters from two completely different franchises, so not only is your trivia point literally doing nothing but comparing two characters of no relation, but you could also make the same point with any blonde-hair fighter in any media (and there are a ton of that, such as characters from [https://www.giantbomb.com/profile/lightdemoncodeh/lists/work-in-progress-list-of-blonde-females-in-video-g/64135/ this list I just pulled up]), which instantly makes the trivia point moot and irrelevant. |
| :Third, even if it's confirmed that Yang took her design from Zero Suit Samus, it has absolutely nothing to do with how Zero Suit Samus looks in ''Smash'', nor does it even affect how Zero Suit Samus is designed. Rather, it's more so information that belongs on a ''RWBY'' wiki since it's talking about Yang's design, and Yang is a character that has no relation to ''Smash'' at all.. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 09:44, June 23, 2023 (EDT) | | :Third, even if it's confirmed that Yang took her design from Zero Suit Samus, it has absolutely nothing to do with how Zero Suit Samus looks in ''Smash'', nor does it even affect how Zero Suit Samus is designed. Rather, it's more so information that belongs on a ''RWBY'' wiki since it's talking about Yang's design, and Yang is a character that has no relation to ''Smash'' at all.. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 09:44, June 23, 2023 (EDT) |
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| == Recent tournaments ==
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| Hello, where did you find lists of recent tournaments like ones shown on UltRank 2023 article? StartGG won't show every other Smash tournaments that are either B+ or below. (i.e. Most non-US tournaments) [[User:CSR|CSR]] ([[User talk:CSR|talk]]) 13:24, July 17, 2023 (EDT)
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| :I usually just use the [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1sno_lCDwendy0WT6r9DxFq6OpfPeWkJE8yC3AUD9cs0/edit#gid=1835734916 UltRank TTS] for ''Ultimate'' tournaments -- which lists most of the relevant ''Ultimate'' tournaments -- and MeleeStats's [https://meleestats.co/category/whens-melee/ When's Melee] articles for ''Melee''. There is also [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XzahpMbQcMI1BJisawTMty5IUdg7_GefHGK5l_A13LA/edit#gid=0 Smash Calendar] but I don't really use it. I do still use Start.gg's tournament search from time-to-time especially for reference but I often find it unreliable and glitchy. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 13:32, July 17, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::Who would've thought people are actually working on UltRank tournament lists and made a list of future tournaments. Thanks for the info, by the way. [[User:CSR|CSR]] ([[User talk:CSR|talk]]) 13:41, July 17, 2023 (EDT)
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| == Thanks for all the tournament results updates ==
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| Hey, I noticed that the smashers' tournament results are often up to date within hours of results coming out. It's honestly impressive and goes a great ways to keep the wiki relevant. Thank you for the work you do. [[User:Lasercatte|Lasercatte]] ([[User talk:Lasercatte|talk]]) 21:40, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
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| :Aw thank you for the compliment :) [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 22:43, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
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| == Ness (SSBU) ==
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| Hey there! It seems we have some differences on how to approach the Ness article, particularly with regard to his competitive positioning. It's better we hash those out here than get into an editing war. Just a few points I would like to make:
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| - Ness hasn't seen a large decline in results over time. He is still well-represented in tournaments.
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| - Gackt has become more consistent recently, with a strong showing at Genesis to back it up.
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| - Sonic is not a bad matchup for Ness. In fact, Ness is one of few characters to consistently give Sonix trouble. FOW, Gackt, and Scend have all taken sets from him.
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| - I think it's important to provide context for LumiRank's tier list. It's only one tier list, and it was heavily criticized by top players on social media. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Loomer|Loomer]] ([[User talk:Loomer|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Loomer|contribs]]) 16:25, February 23, 2024 (EST)</small>
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| :First, sign your comments with four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>).
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| :Second, I appreciate you bringing this to my talk page, but I should clarify some of the points I had made to my edits.
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| ::"Ness hasn't seen a large decline in results over time. He is still well-represented in tournaments."
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| :I completely agree with this point: if we use the [[User:Cookies and Creme/Ultimate Character Data|OrionRank/LumiRank statistics]] it shows Ness being a top 20 character even in 2023. Although this list has yet to be updated for the end of 2023 I wouldn't be surprised if Ness is still around there. My point, however, is that Ness's representation at majors (the top level) has not been as strong as before. Take 2022, or before the first tier list came out, where we saw the top 3 Ness players all place top 8 at least one major, and [[OrionRank 2022|4 Ness players in the top 100]], including 2 in the top 50. Fast forward to 2023, after the first tier list came out, and Gackt is the only Ness player still placing top 8 at majors, and is also the only Ness player in the top 100, let alone top 50; Syrup is just outside of top 100 but his best performance that led to him being ranked that high (TBH 11 for example) were with Steve, while Scend has fallen to 128th and ATATA outside the top 150. Since players tend to only focus on the majors (since they are the most important events of the year), it's no surprise that Ness's poor performances correlated to Ness's drop on the tier list. But at the same time, I still brought up how Ness's regional representation still remains really good and he still pretty damn viable, which is why his placement on the tier list was debatable, with US and LatAm placing Ness 10-12 spots higher.
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| ::"Gackt has become more consistent recently, with a strong showing at Genesis to back it up."
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| :This point was mainly geared towards 2023 Gackt, who went from 7th at {{Trn|Maesuma TOP 13}} to 49th at {{Trn|Super Smash Con 2023}} a few weeks later, then to 5th at {{Trn|Delfino Maza 2023}} before placing 33rd at {{Trn|DELTA 5}}, then the rest of the season was rather mediocre for him (like should he really be losing to players like Iwashi or kept if he was able to overcome Maister 3-0 a few months prior). Even if we talk about currently, just a month before GENESIS Gackt placed 129th at {{Trn|Umebura SP 10}}. I do admit my wording should have been more precise but I wouldn't necessarily say Gackt is more consistent now, especially since the season is barely 2 months old at this point which isn't the greatest time frame to make a good decision.
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| ::"Sonic is not a bad matchup for Ness. In fact, Ness is one of few characters to consistently give Sonix trouble. FOW, Gackt, and Scend have all taken sets from him. "
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| :This is completely on me because what I meant to say is that some of the characters that define the current metagame have tools that abuses Ness's worst weaknesses while they can also deal with Ness's projectile game, one of his best strengths. I'll try to give more context to this in future revisions. That being said, taking sets off a character does not necessarily mean the character is a good matchup. For example, Gackt's lifetime record against KEN is 3-17, and while a lot definitely is with Sephiroth, if we take the sets from before Sephiroth (or at least before 2022) it's even worse, at 1-12.
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| ::"I think it's important to provide context for LumiRank's tier list. It's only one tier list, and it was heavily criticized by top players on social media."
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| :All tier lists have their fair share of criticism, like if I remember correctly the fourth Smash 4 tier list was blasted for some of its inaccuracies, but that's what comes with tier lists. As such, it's kind of pointless to say how the tier list was heavily criticized because all tier lists are heavily criticized to a certain degree, especially for a game like Ultimate where you have to rank 82 characters and have opinions from the entire world. In addition, I have seen a lot of the online criticism but some of it is rooted in misconceptions (like the belief that the one score that had Incineroar as 5th was counted where it was actually removed) so I do wonder whether they are valid criticisms or just uninformed, and top players can be very much uninformed (examples being Leo and Aaron not knowing who Yoshidora is and MVD still thinking Japan had a multiplier going into 2024 when the major Japanese regions haven't had one since 2020). Issues like that are why the wiki should [[SW:NPOV|try to have a more neutral point of view]] on a subject like this especially when this is the only tier list we can really accept: the other alternatives either have dubious sources (such as Game8 or EventHubs, if the latter is still a thing) or are just personal tier lists. At least LumiRank has a fully explained algorithm and was done by people with actual credentials, and if there are any super major criticisms (on the level of people criticising Smash 4's first tier list as being too early, which led to many abstaining their vote), it should be mentioned on the tier list's own page.
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| This about sums up why I made my edits. I do admit there are going to be things that you can improve in what I wrote, but I don't believe fully reverting it is a better alternative, especially since there should still be context as to why Ness fell from 40th to 47th between the two tier lists, which is still a decently large drop. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 17:06, February 23, 2024 (EST)
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| Hey! I appreciate your response. Your points are mostly fair; I do take exception to your point that perception of Ness has "only declined in the post-online metagame." I think this claim is overly negative and not really reflected in the data or the "vibe." The sentiment I have seen from players like Dabuz, Tweek, and Muteace is that the character is strong and still has room to improve. As you mentioned, Ness is still a popular character who performs relatively well in tournaments, especially at the local and regional levels. I think the wiki should reflect that.
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| As for Gackt, your point about consistency is fine with me. (If you noticed, I preserved some of it in my last edit.) However, it should also be noted that the average level of player in Japan is incredibly strong, and Gackt is still almost always getting Top 64. Even at the last Umebura, he was sent to losers very early by an Ice Climbers player and had to win numerous sets in Losers to place where he did. So yes, the 129th placement looks bad, but he actually won a lot of sets vs. good players at that event.
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| Regarding matchups, I think it's fine to point out characters who can exploit Ness' weaknesses (I did some of this in my own write-up), but I don't see why it's inappropriate to discuss matchups in a section about competitive play. If we can discuss Ness' poor matchups, why not list some of his good ones? That said, if you were advised this by a higher-ranking editor, I will respect that.
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| I'm fine with citing the LumiRank tier list, even though I personally don't like the list or the methodology. However, it's really only one data point and doesn't necessarily mean Ness is "worse" than the characters above him. (Is Ness really worse than Captain Falcon? Really??). I also think his decline on the second list has more to do with rising perceptions of other characters than falling perceptions of Ness. A similar argument can be made for his overall representation in tournaments. I think the absence of Ness in rankings is more about players of Ness becoming less active than the character actually getting worse.
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| Anyway, I appreciate the dialogue. I intend to make some further revisions while respecting your overall structure. I love this game and this character, and I want the article to be fair, well-written, and objective.
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| Thanks,
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| [[User:Loomer|Loomer]] ([[User talk:Loomer|talk]]) 17:44, February 23, 2024 (EST)
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| :Just a few things I will like to point out real quick:
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| ::"I do take exception to your point that perception of Ness has "only declined in the post-online metagame." I think this claim is overly negative and not really reflected in the data or the "vibe.""
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| :I believe that's fair. My point was mainly that Ness's results have been on an overall downturn lately and "only" was a bit too charged. I do want to give a precaution to the "top player opinion" point; we don't want another "Pikachu is top 3" situation where top players have argued such but the results and representation did not back it up.
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| ::"but I don't see why it's inappropriate to discuss matchups in a section about competitive play"
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| :The wiki [[Forum:Tier list debate 2020: Part 1|has been cleansing information on matchups for a while now]], mainly due to how volatile they can be, especially amongst other players. It's why we have since removed most if not all matchup charts from the wiki, and those that remain are likely due to archival purposes. That being said, when I try to discuss matchups I more so give a general idea as to what kind of archetype is good against another character. In the case of Ness, his range is poor, so I would say that characters that can outrange Ness can exploit that weakness. I don't give specific matchups due to the new wiki standards but I still give an idea as to how Ness's weaknesses can be exploited.
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| ::"However, it's really only one data point and doesn't necessarily mean Ness is "worse" than the characters above him. (Is Ness really worse than Captain Falcon? Really??)."
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| :I think you may be looking into the numerical placements a bit too much. There's a reason why characters are generally placed in tiers rather than left alone in their individual numerical placements. I feel like [[User:Semicolon/Treatise on the Existence of Tiers#Addendum as of March 2010|this]] better summarizes my point.
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| ::"I also think his decline on the second list has more to do with rising perceptions of other characters than falling perceptions of Ness. A similar argument can be made for his overall representation in tournaments. I think the absence of Ness in rankings is more about players of Ness becoming less active than the character actually getting worse. "
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| :I feel like this is where we mostly disagree, as I do believe Ness's results at the top level is definitely worse than it was in previous years, which as I said before was one of the reasons that factored into the drop. Ness's best players becoming less active is also true to an extent, but Ness didn't lose any of his biggest contributors to retirement: his biggest loss was either Awestin, FOW, or S1, but the former two were never actually ranked on any global ranking while at his peak S1's performances were never at the same level as Gackt, Scend, or even Syrup (OrionRank 2019 was more janky of a ranking compared to OrionRank 2022). Outside of this, I did also state that "Ness's top level results remained stagnant" and I believe that is probably the best way to put it. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 18:40, February 23, 2024 (EST)
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| == Help with Justyce Page ==
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| Now that we've been acquainted--I moved {{Sm|ilikepieinmouth}} to his current tag {{Sm|Justyce}} but the title displays as "justyce" (lowercase). I cannot fathom why that is, or why the proper capitalization redirects to the lowercase one. I could use some help on this. [[User:Kosaq|Kosaq]] ([[User talk:Kosaq|talk]]) 17:27, April 17, 2024 (EDT)
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| :Sure thing! At the very start of the page there is a <nowiki>{{lowercase}}</nowiki> tag that is causing it to be lowercase. I'll remove it now. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 17:28, April 17, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::Oh weird. Thank you very much. [[User:Kosaq|Kosaq]] ([[User talk:Kosaq|talk]]) 17:30, April 17, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::No worries! If you have any other questions feel free to ask. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 17:31, April 17, 2024 (EDT)
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| == About that edit summary ==
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| I thought Miya would take the #1 spot as he took more P+ or A - S rank tournament than acola this year. I know that LumiRank hasn't done yet, but it seemed that Miya was actually surpassing acola in terms of tournament results. Plus, that edit was done before the actual LumiRank 2024.1 reveal too.
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| I called acola "the Japanese Onin" not because of the fact that he was a Steve main, but because of the fact that I felt that both players display the same behavior, same game tag style and same playstyle. I might be misjudging him, but that's how I felt.
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| Thanks for pointing out errors within my edits. And my apologies if my edits offended you somehow. [[User:CSR|CSR]] ([[User talk:CSR|talk]]) 18:16, August 9, 2024 (EDT)
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| :I appreciate the response, and I hope I didn't come off as offended as that was not my intention. I normally wouldn't edit your userpage since I know it's your opinions, but at the same time you can't just have information that has not yet been confirmed or is still somewhat speculative, especially for a page you dedicate to talking about the best. I understand your edit was made before the ranking's reveal, but I do have to point out how even before the LumiRank season was over, many players were already expecting acola to be ranked #1 since he had 2 P tier wins and losses to only 4 players, all of whom were top 20. Miya may have more major and supermajor wins, but he still had a negative record on acola plus several losses outside the top 50, which is what many believed hurt his overall ranking. In the future, just make sure not to make hasty edits like that, lest it accidentally spread misinformation. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 18:33, August 9, 2024 (EDT)
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| ==Apology==
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| Hello, I'm Massow.I just logged in recently, so I'm not sure if this is the right way to send a message, but I think it's better than nothing, so I'll send it.
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| First, I'm sorry. I sometimes use Shion's Joker, but I didn't know that the tournaments he used weren't listed on the Smash Wiki, so I added it in an edit without realizing it.
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| I don't want to cause you any trouble. So, in order to send you the correct information, I check if the that fighter is used on the Smash Wiki before saving the changes, and if it's appropriate, I save it, and if it's not appropriate, I don't save it, so I send it with the right judgment.
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| Finally, I have a question. A while ago I changed Carmelo and listed Shulk as his other Smash characters, but was that the right decision? Sorry for the long message. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Massow|Massow]] ([[User talk:Massow|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Massow|contribs]]) 07:55, September 22, 2024</small>
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| :Hey, so normally it's best you do it on your talk page, but since you left it here I'll just respond. Each new talk page post goes to the bottom, so I've moved your message.
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| :Second, I should reiterate that characters only belong in this section if they had significant usage, like the character wasn't just one-off character used for a few events or a character that never had any notable (eg top 100) wins. It's fine to check SmashWiki for characters, but don't just add any characters because the wiki happened to list them once or a few times.
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| :Third, Carmelo's Shulk was a bit suspect because from what I heard Shulk was mostly used on Smashmate, and I believe ladder characters shouldn't just be added if they were only used for one season. That being said, some others believe Shulk belongs so we are still discussing it.
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| :I do appreciate that you responded, and I hope I didn't come off as too harsh. Just keep in mind what I said before you make any other additions. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 08:48, September 22, 2024 (EDT)
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