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| ...Amaterasu would actually be the ''sixth'' canid fighter after Isabelle. [[File:JacketTerraSig1.png|20px]]'''The [[User:JacketedTerrapin|<span style="color: blue;">Jacketed</span>]] [[User talk:JacketedTerrapin|<span style="color: green;">Terrapin</span>]]'''[[File:JacketTerraSig2.png|20px]] 01:12, June 29, 2021 (EDT) | | ...Amaterasu would actually be the ''sixth'' canid fighter after Isabelle. [[File:JacketTerraSig1.png|20px]]'''The [[User:JacketedTerrapin|<span style="color: blue;">Jacketed</span>]] [[User talk:JacketedTerrapin|<span style="color: green;">Terrapin</span>]]'''[[File:JacketTerraSig2.png|20px]] 01:12, June 29, 2021 (EDT) |
| :Holy shit, you're right. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: black;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: grey;">'''the</span> <span style="color: white; text-shadow: 0 0 2px black;">Ace</span> <span style="color: purple;">Rurouni'''</span>]] 01:29, June 29, 2021 (EDT) | | :Holy shit, you're right. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: black;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: grey;">'''the</span> <span style="color: white; text-shadow: 0 0 2px black;">Ace</span> <span style="color: purple;">Rurouni'''</span>]] 01:29, June 29, 2021 (EDT) |
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| == Sega ==
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| So on the "Reasons for inclusion/exclusion" section for AGES, you made a point about Sega having poor overall representation in ''Smash'', with the key point being "'''one of them is represented poorly, one of them is only Sega by IP ownership, one of them technically isn't even a Sega character at all, and the Assist Trophy doesn't exactly have much going for it otherwise.'''"
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| While the last one is [[Virtua Fighter (universe)|very obvious]] and process of elimination makes the first one [[Sonic the Hedgehog (universe)|easy to guess]], I'm afraid the middle two are too vague and can easily be interchangeable (for reasons the bottom two paragraphs should hopefully explain well enough).
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| I'm guessing "'''Sega by IP ownership'''" is ''Bayonetta'' due to Sega not having published any installments beyond the first (and even then, only the non-Nintendo releases), but Nintendo seems to have some ownership of the sequels (do note that the non-remixed ''Bayo 2'' tracks only have Nintendo mentioned in the copyright notices; Bayo's ''Smash 4'' eShop copyright notice also lists Ninty according to [[User:Miles_of_SmashWiki/sandbox#Character rights|this page]], likely referring to the sequel design), which may lead some people into thinking Sega doesn't fully own ''Bayonetta'' when it's simply just that they refuse to publish the sequels for some reason (and it's not like this isn't a recurring thing with Sega; ''{{s|wikipedia|Shenmue III}}'', ''{{s|wikipedia|Streets of Rage 4}}'', ''{{s|wikipedia|Alex Kidd in Miracle World DX}}'', ''{{s|wikipedia|Wonder Boy: The Dragon's Trap}}'', etc.). If "Sega doesn't publish it anymore" isn't the reason, my only other guess is that PlatinumGames develops the series and not Sega, in which case I feel the explanation should instead be "'''one of them is not developed by Sega'''".
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| "'''Technically isn't even a Sega character at all'''" is probably referring to ''Persona'' since the series is always published by Atlus and not directly by Sega (in Japan, at least; Sega seems to have completely taken over North American publishing duties for Atlus's stuff in recent years). Problem with that wording is that it could mean anything, one of them being that Sega '''''doesn't actually own''''' ''Persona'', but simply just publishes the series (similar to how Square Enix makes and publishes ''Kingdom Hearts'' despite Disney owning the IP). Sega has owned Atlus since 2013, meaning Joker is as much of a Sega character as Sonic is, just not in-name only. I think a more accurate point would be "is only Sega via their acquisition of Atlus" (granted, Joker postdates the acquisition, but you said "it has three '''franchises''' in the game already", yet said "isn't even a Sega '''character''' at all", so I'm just gonna assume that was an inconsistency there).
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| Hope I'm not coming off as super nitpicky here, but I feel your point on why Sega doesn't have great representation in ''Smash'' could've been stronger. Any objections are welcome. [[File:JacketTerraSig1.png|20px]]'''The [[User:The Jacketed Terrapin|<span style="color: blue;">Jacketed</span>]] [[User talk:The Jacketed Terrapin|<span style="color: green;">Terrapin</span>]]'''[[File:JacketTerraSig2.png|20px]] 21:40, July 12, 2022 (EDT)
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| :"Sega by IP ownership" is indeed in reference to the fact that Platinum develops the series, and, unlike Sonic Team, are not fully related to Sega. I knew that there was some shenanigans happening with Bayonetta's copyright (especially after Nintendo saved the sequel at the expense of being Wii U-exclusive), but it wasn't in reference to that, especially since I know full well how Sega likes to outsource development as of late.
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| :"Technically isn't even a Sega character at all" actually refers to the fact that, unlike Bayonetta, where PG wasn't credited in Smash 4 (which, as we know, is because they have no ownership of the IP), Atlus ''was'' credited separately in Ultimate, despite Sega owning Atlus. I know Sega has put Persona characters within Sega games themselves (as seen [https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/sonic/images/3/3f/Sonic_Forces_SegaAtlus_Pack_1504071888.png/revision/latest?cb=20170831152649 here] and [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5s70eKjTUU here]), but note that Atlus, like in Smash, is still credited separately. They own Persona, and Sega owns them. It's the same as Mojang being credited separately for Steve's inclusion, despite Microsoft being credited for Banjo (though, admittedly, I do have to wonder why Rare isn't credited separately from Microsoft; there's probably some copyright bullshit mixed in there somewhere).
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| :My main point with Sega having poor representation is that there's little to no variety when there easily could have been. Let me see some spirits of NiGHTS, Beat, Ulala, AiAi, B.D. Joe, Vyse, the Burning Rangers, I could go on. (I don't think you were being too nitpicky, though.) [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 22:40, July 12, 2022 (EDT)
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| ::In hindsight, I probably didn't need to bring up the ''Bayonetta'' point since it's still accurate enough, but I still feel the ''Persona'' point could've been written a lot better.
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| ::Other than that, I don't have much else to say. The ''Virtua Fighter'' point is pretty spot-on (I mean, all it ever got besides the AT were Mii Costumes) and I'm not enough of a ''Sonic'' fan to judge how well ''Smash'' represented the series and it's really all subjective in the end anyway (If you ask me, ''Pac-Man''{{'}}s the one with really poor representation. Lame alts, unimpressive trophy and spirit lists, cutting Pac-Maze in ''Ultimate'' over <s>MS Paint sidescroller</s> Pac-Land, only 3 songs <s>that aren't from other Namco franchises</s>, and the severe lack of any representation from the non-Arcade titles. The only real issue I have with ''Sonic'' are Sonic's alts and the lack of remixed tracks. Otherwise, I don't really mind how everything else was handled). <small><s>also it'd be really nice if fandom images actually worked</s></small> [[File:JacketTerraSig1.png|20px]]'''The [[User:The Jacketed Terrapin|<span style="color: blue;">Jacketed</span>]] [[User talk:The Jacketed Terrapin|<span style="color: green;">Terrapin</span>]]'''[[File:JacketTerraSig2.png|20px]] 23:18, July 12, 2022 (EDT)
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| :::Pac-Man does have poor representation in terms of his own series, but he at least collectively represents Namco and the golden age of arcade games thoroughly enough that I can't complain—the same applies to Terry and him bringing everything from SNK with him. AGES was made to be an equivalent to that for Sega, since Sonic leaves a lot to be desired (lucky for you, I ''am'' enough of a Sonic fan to judge that aspect, and we really should've had another playable character by now).
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| :::Also, you wanna know what I found out about Fandom images? If you aren't logged in, they don't work. You can't access file pages, and trying to do so (by accessing a link or forcing your way through by typing the URL yourself) redirects you to whatever page the file is on. If you ''are'' logged in, then everything works fine, for some reason. Add that to the list of reasons why Fandom sucks. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 23:28, July 12, 2022 (EDT)
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| ::::Terry at least has the excuse of being more of a representation of ''The King of Fighters'' (which is supposed to be a crossover of several SNK IPs) than ''Fatal Fury''. Plus, ''Fatal Fury'' has '''17''' songs available, almost sextuple that of ''Pac-Man''. I guess the only issue is the lack of any native ''Fatal Fury'' spirits, but that's really due to the other spirits being from other SNK games and most DLC franchises in ''Ultimate'' having a relatively low spirit count, anyway.
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| ::::As much as I love the idea of Pac-Man referencing other Namco arcade games, I still think they could've done much more with his own series. Why not have most if not all of his alts change the color of his gloves and boots? Why not have some music tracks from other ''Pac-Man'' titles? Why not have spirits of other characters ([[wikipedia:Ms. Pac-Man#AtGames Dispute|that Bamco has the rights to]], anyway) beyond the ones in ''Smash'' (Pac-Mom, Pac-Boy, Pac-Sis, Professor Pac, Miru, anyone from the ''Pac-Man World'' series, anyone from ''Pac 'n Roll'', anyone from ''Pac-Man Party'', I wouldn't even mind some ''Ghostly Adventures'' representation despite that sub-series's reputation)? My issue with ''Pac-Man'' is just how little the series got compared to other third-party series and I'm really not a fan of considering the other Namco properties "''Pac-Man''" content because it artificially makes the ''Pac-Man'' representation a lot grander than it really is. And considering the recent ''Smash'' games are co-developed by Bandai Namco, I expected a lot more from their flagship (Namco) franchise.
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| ::::I'm not as bothered by ''Sonic'' because, as an outsider, I can't exactly see the issue. Sure, a second ''Sonic'' fighter is long overdue (especially now that other third-party series have more than one fighter), but two stages for a third-party franchise is not very common (do note that only ''Pac-Man'' and ''Final Fantasy'' have this distinction, but Pac-Maze got cut in ''Ultimate''), it has two Assist Trophies (only behind ''Mega Man'' for the most of a third-party franchise series-wide), the trophy/sticker/spirit selections were never an issue, and outside of the lack of remixes, the song selection is fine enough for my standards. Maybe it's just because I have no interest in getting into ''Sonic'' whatsoever, so I'm not gonna be as harsh to how ''Smash'' treats it than others. <small><s>if you ask me, i think dillon is the cooler ball-rolling mammal, even if his games are on the below average side</s></small>
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| ::::Thing is, I actually ''AM'' logged into Fandom, but I have a completely different issue altogether. When I try the outside method, it does take me to the image page...but it just simply doesn't display the image it's supposed to be showing. It just shows up as what I can only assume to be some sort of "Image failed to load" picture. [https://imgur.com/a/G6rP2l9 Here's what it should look like]. [[File:JacketTerraSig1.png|20px]]'''The [[User:The Jacketed Terrapin|<span style="color: blue;">Jacketed</span>]] [[User talk:The Jacketed Terrapin|<span style="color: green;">Terrapin</span>]]'''[[File:JacketTerraSig2.png|20px]] 00:33, July 13, 2022 (EDT)
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