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Editing User talk:1337 B33FC4K3
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::You don't understand shit if you think Melee Marth's grab is OP. You're the 1 that fucked up if you got grabbed buddy.--<span style="background-color:#6d84e1;border:3px solid silver">[[User:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:silver">'''Brian'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:black">Don't try me!</span>]]</sup>[[File:Falco.gif|link=|27px]]</span> 02:21, 1 February 2015 (EST) | ::You don't understand shit if you think Melee Marth's grab is OP. You're the 1 that fucked up if you got grabbed buddy.--<span style="background-color:#6d84e1;border:3px solid silver">[[User:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:silver">'''Brian'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:black">Don't try me!</span>]]</sup>[[File:Falco.gif|link=|27px]]</span> 02:21, 1 February 2015 (EST) | ||
I laughed at how much you missed OT's point. Key words you used were "uninformed" and "objective" to describe how little he knew yet you were so focused on letting everyone know a Top 5 grab reach was awful. 08:32, 18 August 2015 (EDT) | |||
::Fine perhaps I should explain to the uninformed why Marth is fine having a long grab range. Simply put, it fits his design of having a neutral game where he has to stay safe and maintain his distance from someone. Marth's goal in neutral is to move forward but without the intent of getting a first hit. Marth cannot be the first to commit in neutral. This is because his moves, while are fast startup wise, have very very punishable endlag, have really short duration, do not cover a constant area of space (because the hitboxes move in arcs), and are crouch cancel-able if Marth is close to his opponents. Thus Marth's goal is to get hits not by committing first, but by punishing commitments, which he pressures opponents into doing by moving forward. This includes the way he gets grabs; the most common way you see Marths get grabs is baiting whiffs with dash dances and grabbing the whiffed attack from afar. Having a normal grab range means that he would have to actually go for raw grabs out neutral, aka hard reading when someone is going to shield, roll or spot dodge and then committing to the grab. That violates the aforementioned playstyle Marth is designed to do. | ::Fine perhaps I should explain to the uninformed why Marth is fine having a long grab range. Simply put, it fits his design of having a neutral game where he has to stay safe and maintain his distance from someone. Marth's goal in neutral is to move forward but without the intent of getting a first hit. Marth cannot be the first to commit in neutral. This is because his moves, while are fast startup wise, have very very punishable endlag, have really short duration, do not cover a constant area of space (because the hitboxes move in arcs), and are crouch cancel-able if Marth is close to his opponents. Thus Marth's goal is to get hits not by committing first, but by punishing commitments, which he pressures opponents into doing by moving forward. This includes the way he gets grabs; the most common way you see Marths get grabs is baiting whiffs with dash dances and grabbing the whiffed attack from afar. Having a normal grab range means that he would have to actually go for raw grabs out neutral, aka hard reading when someone is going to shield, roll or spot dodge and then committing to the grab. That violates the aforementioned playstyle Marth is designed to do. | ||
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:::Apparently, Marth's grab range in Melee was larger than Yoshi's grab range. Any character that didn't have a tether grab probably would have benefited from having a grab with that range to begin with. [[User:LimitCrown|LimitCrown]] ([[User talk:LimitCrown|talk]]) 14:24, 1 February 2015 (EST) | :::Apparently, Marth's grab range in Melee was larger than Yoshi's grab range. Any character that didn't have a tether grab probably would have benefited from having a grab with that range to begin with. [[User:LimitCrown|LimitCrown]] ([[User talk:LimitCrown|talk]]) 14:24, 1 February 2015 (EST) | ||
::::Yoshi's grab isn't a tether grab dude. It's actually not that much shorter; the difference is about 1 unit. And the only reason Marth got that grab in the gif was because Yoshi has a really large hurtbox on his nose. Put Fox in Yoshi's place and Marth would not have gotten the grab.--<span style="background-color:#6d84e1;border:3px solid silver">[[User:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:silver">'''Brian'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:black">Don't try me!</span>]]</sup>[[File:Falco.gif|link=|27px]]</span> 16:18, 1 February 2015 (EST) | ::::Yoshi's grab isn't a tether grab dude. It's actually not that much shorter; the difference is about 1 unit. And the only reason Marth got that grab in the gif was because Yoshi has a really large hurtbox on his nose. Put Fox in Yoshi's place and Marth would not have gotten the grab.--<span style="background-color:#6d84e1;border:3px solid silver">[[User:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:silver">'''Brian'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:black">Don't try me!</span>]]</sup>[[File:Falco.gif|link=|27px]]</span> 16:18, 1 February 2015 (EST) | ||
==[http://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Marth_(SSB4)&curid=39190&diff=644244&oldid=642435 this]== | ==[http://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Marth_(SSB4)&curid=39190&diff=644244&oldid=642435 this]== | ||
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He is in the middle tier that's closer to trash tier than the top tier. Marth will not be winning any large tournaments in the game except by patches or a really really REALLY lucky miracle. --<span style="background-color:#6d84e1;border:3px solid silver">[[User:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:silver">'''Brian'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:black">Don't try me!</span>]]</sup>[[File:Falco.gif|link=|27px]]</span> 00:25, 20 February 2015 (EST) | He is in the middle tier that's closer to trash tier than the top tier. Marth will not be winning any large tournaments in the game except by patches or a really really REALLY lucky miracle. --<span style="background-color:#6d84e1;border:3px solid silver">[[User:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:silver">'''Brian'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:black">Don't try me!</span>]]</sup>[[File:Falco.gif|link=|27px]]</span> 00:25, 20 February 2015 (EST) | ||
== Just so you know == | == Just so you know == | ||
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And why should I tell you who I am again? | And why should I tell you who I am again? | ||
{{unsigned|45.37.25.25|05:32, August 9, 2015}} | |||
:1. Who are you? | :1. Who are you? | ||
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It is unlikely Marth will spike (pun not intended), and I agree he is not great, but at the very least, he is upper-mid tier. Just keep your cool man. | It is unlikely Marth will spike (pun not intended), and I agree he is not great, but at the very least, he is upper-mid tier. Just keep your cool man. | ||
{{unsigned|45.37.25.25|6:52, August 9, 2015}} | |||
You've stated alot of unsubstantiated claims and what ifs. You have not presented (or proven) any facts. First of all, your personal experience doesn't mean anything. You got beat by Marth players? Ok, that shows you don't know what you were doing, not that Marth has some secret potential waiting to be unlocked (seriously, think about how far fetched that conclusion is). You haven't stated any notable names and I doubt the players you are losing to won't make top 8 at the next EVO. | You've stated alot of unsubstantiated claims and what ifs. You have not presented (or proven) any facts. First of all, your personal experience doesn't mean anything. You got beat by Marth players? Ok, that shows you don't know what you were doing, not that Marth has some secret potential waiting to be unlocked (seriously, think about how far fetched that conclusion is). You haven't stated any notable names and I doubt the players you are losing to won't make top 8 at the next EVO. | ||
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Thank you all for paying attention to what I have to say. | Thank you all for paying attention to what I have to say. | ||
{{unsigned|45.37.25.25|9:56, August 10, 2015}} | |||
I want to add a few more things: | I want to add a few more things: | ||
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Again, thank you for hearing what I have to say. | Again, thank you for hearing what I have to say. | ||
{{unsigned|45.37.25.25|10:08, August 10, 2015}} | |||
I'm back again after reading a recent change on the Marth page. | I'm back again after reading a recent change on the Marth page. | ||
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It seems you are trying to snuff out all faith that Marth can be good, I didn't say he was necessarily good, said opinions were divided. You are acting like only your opinion exists. Marth is a low tier, but he has a candle of potential lol, you can't deny the fact that Marth is not completely useless, but then again, you are entitled to your opinion, and I am to mine. | It seems you are trying to snuff out all faith that Marth can be good, I didn't say he was necessarily good, said opinions were divided. You are acting like only your opinion exists. Marth is a low tier, but he has a candle of potential lol, you can't deny the fact that Marth is not completely useless, but then again, you are entitled to your opinion, and I am to mine. | ||
{{unsigned|45.37.25.25|10:16, August 10, 2015}} | |||
The problem is that these opinions about Marth, including yours, are based on a faulty understanding of the game. You also have questionable sources of information. Seriously, Marth was considered amazing in early Melee, even when everyone was a scrub. Azen, the first good player, beat literally everyone via forward smash reads. Like I said, when you come up with an argument for Marth that has the logical soundness of mine, then I'll listen. --<span style="background-color:#6d84e1;border:3px solid silver">[[User:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:silver">'''Brian'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:black">Don't try me!</span>]]</sup>[[File:Falco.gif|link=|27px]]</span> 11:41, 10 August 2015 (EDT) | The problem is that these opinions about Marth, including yours, are based on a faulty understanding of the game. You also have questionable sources of information. Seriously, Marth was considered amazing in early Melee, even when everyone was a scrub. Azen, the first good player, beat literally everyone via forward smash reads. Like I said, when you come up with an argument for Marth that has the logical soundness of mine, then I'll listen. --<span style="background-color:#6d84e1;border:3px solid silver">[[User:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:silver">'''Brian'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:black">Don't try me!</span>]]</sup>[[File:Falco.gif|link=|27px]]</span> 11:41, 10 August 2015 (EDT) | ||
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{{unsigned|45.37.25.25|2:13, August 10, 2015}} | |||
== To Brian and Miles == | == To Brian and Miles == | ||
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{{unsigned|45.37.25.25|4:25, August 10, 2015}} | |||
Haha. Say this to me again when you reach the same level of understanding I have about the game.--[[Special:Contributions/64.2.3.194|64.2.3.194]] 16:38, 10 August 2015 (EDT) | Haha. Say this to me again when you reach the same level of understanding I have about the game.--[[Special:Contributions/64.2.3.194|64.2.3.194]] 16:38, 10 August 2015 (EDT) | ||
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I'm not going to say you were not wrong about the fact that Marth is arguably the most severely nerfed character in the game. However, you go as far as to say Marth has no strengths and is completely useless. | I'm not going to say you were not wrong about the fact that Marth is arguably the most severely nerfed character in the game. However, you go as far as to say Marth has no strengths and is completely useless. | ||
{{unsigned|45.37.25.25|4:44, August 10, 2015}} | |||
The gimmicks you perceive as strengths mean nothing to me. Whatever attractive features left in his kit are too few and far between to do anything significant. He's nothing but a scrub slayer now.--[[Special:Contributions/64.2.3.194|64.2.3.194]] 16:52, 10 August 2015 (EDT) | The gimmicks you perceive as strengths mean nothing to me. Whatever attractive features left in his kit are too few and far between to do anything significant. He's nothing but a scrub slayer now.--[[Special:Contributions/64.2.3.194|64.2.3.194]] 16:52, 10 August 2015 (EDT) | ||
We'll see. I'm not counting on it. | We'll see. I'm not counting on it. {{unsigned|45.37.25.25|5:00, August 10, 2015}} | ||
I would agree with Brian on this one. Unless if Marth gets an extreme buff in his neutral and punish game in a patch, I see him nowhere as viable compared to Melee and <s>Brawl</s>; although that being said, I wouldn't say he's complete shit like Lucina is. [[User:Dots|<font color="red">'''D'''</font><font color="green">'''o'''</font><font color="blue">'''t'''</font><font color="purple">'''s'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Dots|talk]]) [[File:Mega Man X SNES sprite.png|19px]] The Medic 17:01, 10 August 2015 (EDT) | I would agree with Brian on this one. Unless if Marth gets an extreme buff in his neutral and punish game in a patch, I see him nowhere as viable compared to Melee and <s>Brawl</s>; although that being said, I wouldn't say he's complete shit like Lucina is. [[User:Dots|<font color="red">'''D'''</font><font color="green">'''o'''</font><font color="blue">'''t'''</font><font color="purple">'''s'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Dots|talk]]) [[File:Mega Man X SNES sprite.png|19px]] The Medic 17:01, 10 August 2015 (EDT) | ||
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:Not only Marth needs buffs in his neutral and punish game, he also needs to have an improved throw follow ups and combo ability (like linking forward aerial to each other efficiently, have forward aerial strings, and less base and growth of its knockback on his throws, so he can follow up better and have better KO setups). Only true follow ups so far I found is his forward throw to Crescent Slash (custom move), although I see some top players are against custom moves for competitive play after EVO. Otherwise, I don't see how viable he will be and is not gonna be too bright. [[User:Luigi540|Luigi540]] ([[User talk:Luigi540|talk]]) 17:29, 10 August 2015 (EDT) | :Not only Marth needs buffs in his neutral and punish game, he also needs to have an improved throw follow ups and combo ability (like linking forward aerial to each other efficiently, have forward aerial strings, and less base and growth of its knockback on his throws, so he can follow up better and have better KO setups). Only true follow ups so far I found is his forward throw to Crescent Slash (custom move), although I see some top players are against custom moves for competitive play after EVO. Otherwise, I don't see how viable he will be and is not gonna be too bright. [[User:Luigi540|Luigi540]] ([[User talk:Luigi540|talk]]) 17:29, 10 August 2015 (EDT) | ||