| Latest revision |
Your text |
| Line 1: |
Line 1: |
| I'll be using this sandbox to put some random stuff, saved drafts on articles, etc. | | I'll be using this sandbox to put some random stuff, saved drafts on articles, etc. |
|
| |
|
| =Melee vs. Brawl= | | ==Rewrite [[Kirby (SSBB)#Attributes]]== |
| '''''Melee'' vs. ''Brawl''''' is the name given to the continuous debate in the [[community|Smash community]] over the two largest games: ''[[Super Smash Bros. Melee]]'' and ''[[Super Smash Bros. Brawl]]''. | | :''I plan on rewriting the Kirby article to make it better. Please comment on the [[User talk:Ac2k/Sandbox|the talk page]]. |
|
| |
|
| ==Criticisms of differences in gameplay in ''Brawl''==
| | Kirby is a small, [[lightweight]] character. His small size allows him to avoid many attacks (his initial [[dashing]] animation can go underneath {{SSBB|Pit}}'s [[Palutena's Arrow]]). He is also able to [[crouch]] underneath attacks, which can be used to his advantage against tall characters such as {{SSBB|R.O.B.}} and {{SSBB|Ganondorf}}. He has poor mobility, including the 25th fastest [[walking]] speed, the 28th fastest [[dash]]ing speed, the second lowest [[jump]]ing height, a slow [[air speed]], and a slow [[falling speed]]. His light weight is both advantageous and disadvantageous; he is less vulnerable to [[chain throw]]s (including {{SSBB|King Dedede}}'s [[down throw]]), but he also gets launches farther when hit, making him easier to KO. He also has poor [[momentum canceling]] abilities, with slow falling speeds, and his fastest aerial attack, his [[up aerial]], is only slightly shorter than his [[air dodge]]. His momentum canceling abilities, combined with his light weight, give him one of the worst survivabilities in the game. However, he makes up for this with one of the longest-reaching and safest [[recovery|recoveries]], with five midair [[jump]]s and [[Final Cutter]] to help him return to the stage. This makes him a good choice for beginners to learn with. His multiple jumps also give him good [[edgeguarding]] potential. Kirby has long reach in his attacks, with many [[disjointed hitbox]]es, and a strong [[combo]] ability, with his [[forward throw]], [[forward tilt]], [[up tilt]], and [[up aerial]] all being great damage rackers and setups. He also has high [[KO]] power, with his [[smash attack]]s, [[back aerial]], [[Hammer]], and [[Stone]] all being finishers. Kirby lacks a solid projectile, and his only projectile, the wave produced from Final Cutter, is slow and predictable. This complicates matchups against characters with solid projectiles, such as {{SSBB|Falco}} and {{SSBB|Pit}}. |
| ''Melee'' and ''Brawl'' have many differences in their gameplay, and many of these gameplay differences have been criticized by players of the games. Many ''Melee'' players in particular have become notoriously vocal about their criticisms of ''Brawl'''s gameplay, claiming that many changes in ''Brawl''{{'}}s physics have caused it to become subpar to ''Melee'' for competitive play.
| |
|
| |
|
| ''Brawl'' has been categorized as a more defensive-based and slow-paced game as a whole than its predecessor for many reasons, and this has been received with much criticism by members of the community. One of the most heavily criticized changes is the change in [[hitstun]] mechanics. ''Melee''{{'}}s physics causes launched characters to remain in hitstun for a significant period of time that increases with damage percentage, which allows unescapable followups for characters when they launch their opponents with low to moderate [[knockback]]. Due to ''Melee''{{'}}s fairly large amounts of hitstun, characters can frequently perform guaranteed [[combo]]s that deal 40-50%, often reaching 70 or 80% or higher. However, in ''Brawl'', players can act out of hitstun much sooner than in ''Melee'', being able to perform an [[air dodge]] after 13 [[frame]]s of hitstun and an [[aerial attack]] after 25 frames of hitstun. This allows players to react to their opponent's actions while being launched and potentially escape combos. The reduced hitstun makes true combos rare, and almost all hits that do not deal beyond very low knockback cannot combo well. ''Brawl'''s reduced hitstun can allow a player to [[punish]] their opponent after being hit with an attack with high [[ending lag]], and allows [[momentum cancelling]], which can cause players to survive to higher percentages than they normally would in a match. The reduced histun in ''Brawl'' is seen as a negative addition to the game by the large of majority of ''Melee'' players, and many ''Brawl'' players also agree with pro-''Melee'' players that increased hitstun would be a positive addition to the game. | | One of Kirby's strong aspects is his ground game. All of his ground attack have long range, start quickly, and end quickly as well. His forward tilt is a versatile ground attack that is good for [[spacing]], and leads into itself at low percents. His up tilt is one of the fastest up tilts in the game, has disproportionately long range, and is a good [[juggling|juggler]] and setup move at low percents. His [[down tilt]] has a chance to [[trip]] opponents, creating additional setups. His [[forward smash]] delivers huge knockback and has low startup [[lag]] for such a powerful attack. It is considered his best KO move, along with his back aerial. His [[up smash]] is also a powerful finisher. However, it has a sweetspot behind Kirby that cannot reliably KO. His [[down smash]] covers both sides, and delivers powerful vertical knockback. It also delivers horizontal knockback at the tips of his feet, making it good for edgeguarding. |
|
| |
|
| Offensive tactics that allow for [[damage]] and [[pressure]] are seen as too weak in ''Brawl'' by many ''Melee'' players, while the [[shield]] and other defensive maneuvers are seen as too strong by these players. ''Brawl'' saw the removal of many features that were crucial to the gameplay of ''Melee'', and the removal of these features is seen by pro-''Melee'' players as limiting the offensive options a character can perform. [[L-cancelling]] does not exist in ''Brawl'' as it does in ''Melee'', and as a result, players are forced to wait out the full [[landing lag]] time of their non-[[autocancel]]led aerial attacks, making low-height aerials less safe to use. Players can no longer control the direction of an [[air dodge]] in ''Brawl'', making [[wavedashing]] impossible; this is criticized by ''Melee'' players as limiting the [[approach]] options of characters on the ground. In ''Brawl'', after grabbing a ledge, players must wait for a period of time before being able to perform an action, which is seen as limiting characters' options on the ledge. Pro-''Melee'' players argue that the removal of options such as wavedashing and L-cancelling, as well as the lack of combos and rewards for approaching, promotes [[camping]] and a more defensive-based playstyle, which is seen as less exciting than the more aggressive play of ''Melee''. A major criticism of ''Brawl'' is that the shield is seen as too powerful; [[shieldstun]] is descreased in ''Brawl'', and the [[powershield]] window is increased to 4 frames, weakening the effectiveness of shield pressure, allowing players to act [[out of shield]] faster, and increasing the chance for attacking players to be punished. The air dodge also no longer puts players into a [[helpless state]], allowing them to attack following an air dodge or air dodge consecutively. This is criticized by pro-''Melee'' players for weakening the power of an attacking player challenging an opponent in the air or offstage. These changes to ''Brawl'' are seen as benefiting the player playing defensively while harming the player fighting offensively, while many players argue that the offensive player should be more greatly rewarded for approaching and taking risks.
| | Kirby also has a strong [[grab]] and [[throw]] game as well. He has a fast grab with above average range. His [[pummel]] is very quick and good for refreshing stale moves. His [[forward throw]] can lead to combos that can deal over 40%, depending on the weight and falling speed of the character. His [[back throw]] is useful for getting opponents off of the stage, and his [[up throw]] can even KO at high percents. Kirby's [[down throw]] is a good damage-racker, and is able to [[chain throw]] [[fastfaller]]s at low percents. However, its ending lag hinders its combo potential, though it is still decent. |
|
| |
|
| ''Brawl'' is additionally criticized for being a much slower-paced game than ''Melee''. The aformentioned loss of L-cancelling and wavedashing, as well as a more defensively-based playstyle, has caused ''Brawl'' to have a generally slower attack rate than ''Melee'', causing many members of the community to consider ''Melee'' a more intense and exciting game than ''Brawl''. The [[falling speed]]s and [[gravity|acceleration rates]] of characters are slower than in ''Melee'', as every [[veteran]] has a slower falling speed in ''Brawl'' than in ''Melee''; this has been criticized for preventing mixups and [[mindgame]]s by limiting the ability to transfer from the air to the ground quickly. It is also seen as improving [[recovery|recoveries]], and ''Brawl'' has been criticized by ''Melee'' players for making recovery too easy (especially since air dodging no longer puts the user into a helpless state) and limiting the effectiveness of [[edgeguarding]]. | | Kirby's [[special move]]s have varying degrees of usefulness. His [[neutral special move]], [[Inhale]], gives him the unique ability to [[copy ability (SSBB)|copy]] the neutral special moves of his opponents. He can use this to cover some of his weak areas, such as a lack of a solid projectile. Kirby can also perform [[Kirbycide]] by walking off the stage with the opponent in his mouth. He can also spit out characters with poor recoveries below the stage, where the opponent is unlikely to recover, and Kirby, with his good recovery, can easily get back onto the stage. His [[side special move]], [[Hammer]], is a powerful attack and good finisher, but it has high startup lag. When used in the air, the first hit has less startup lag, and the second hit is a powerful [[semi-spike]], making it a good edgeguarding tool. His [[up special move]], [[Final Cutter]], is useful during [[recovery]], and produces a shockwave upon landing, creating his only normal projectile. However, it can be [[edgehog]]ged rather easily, it is too slow to be used effectively for [[camping]], and experienced players will be able to dodge the wave without much difficulty. When Kirby descends from Final Cutter, a [[meteor smash]] hitbox is produced, making it useful for edgeguarding from above. Kirby can also perform "[[Sacrificial KO|Cuttercide]]" by using Final Cutter in midair and bringing down an opponent, where both players will usually die. His [[down special move]], [[Stone]], is powerful and can KO at high percents and leaves him invulnerable to attacks, but it has high ending lag, is predictable, and an opponent can [[punish]] him with a grab. It is useful as a surprise KO move, and on stages with [[swim|water]], where he can easily land a hit on swimming opponents. |
|
| |
| On a more universal scale, [[tripping|random tripping]] is a mechanic introduced to ''Brawl'' that is disliked by both ''Melee'' and ''Brawl'' players; the 1% chance of tripping randomly when initiating a [[dash]] is seen as a hinderance to competitive play. Random tripping is seen as a mechanic that unfairly punishes a player by causing them to lose their momentum in a match and be put in a vulnerable [[tech-chase]] position, even if the player made no [[technical error]]s or mistakes. A random trip can cause a player to lose a punish opportunity or an advantageous position on the stage, or even get punished themselves while they're vulnerable, which can lead to significant damage, being put in a dangerous position (such as offstage or in the air), or potentially KOed.
| |
|
| |
|
| Differences in gameplay between the two games can be observed; long-lasting combos are frequently performed in ''Melee'', while combos in ''Brawl'' are generally only performed at very low percents, and at moderate to high percents, damage is mostly built from single attacks. Defensive options such as the shield are more frequently utilized in ''Brawl'', and camping is a larger part of the ''Brawl'' metagame than in ''Melee''. Since damage buildup is slower than in ''Brawl'', KOs occur much slower in ''Brawl'' than ''Melee'', and three-stock ''Brawl'' matches usually take longer than four-stock ''Melee'' matches. The more fast-paced ''Melee'' is regarded by many players as more interesting to watch than ''Brawl'', and ''Brawl'' is frequently criticized for the sizable amount of [[time-out]]s that occur in matches, while in ''Melee'', time-outs almost never occur. The ''Brawl'' metagame is widely criticized for the overwhelming dominance of {{SSBB|Meta Knight}}, as well as the {{SSBB|Ice Climbers}}' infinite [[chaingrab]]s in top-level play; these characters are frequently seen as making the game "boring" by both ''Melee'' and ''Brawl'' players. Conversely, some ''Melee'' and ''Brawl'' players have criticized the ''Melee'' scene for the dominance of {{SSBM|Fox}} and other [[top tier]] characters; Fox's dominance in the ''Melee'' scene has become [[20XX|an internet meme]] as well. While many ''Melee'' players claim that ''Brawl'' is an inferior game to ''Melee'', others argue that ''Melee'' requires more technical skill demands than ''Brawl'', but ''Brawl'' is just more focused on [[mindgame|cerebral skill]] than ''Melee''.
| | One of Kirby's main flaws is his poor aerial game. His best aerial attack by far is his [[back aerial]], one of his most versatile attacks. It has low startup and ending lag, is a good edgeguarding tool, can be used for [[Wall of Pain]] techniques, and can KO at high percents. But outside of his back aerial, his aerial attacks suffer from a combination of high startup and ending lag, poor knockback, and poor range. His [[forward aerial]] is good for countering [[approach]]es. However, all three hits will sometimes not lead into each other, depending on the opponent's position, and can be [[SDI]]'ed out of. It also has poor knockback, and the back aerial is considered superior for most uses. His [[up aerial]] is a decent juggler and has good combo potential, but its power was [[nerf]]ed from ''Melee''; it can no longer KO reliably under 150% unless near the upper [[blast line]]. It also has noticeable, albeit small, startup lag. His [[down aerial]] is a meteor smash, and is useful for "dragging down" opponents recovering vertically, and Kirby can easily recover. However, it has high startup lag, and is weak for a meteor smash, so it's not very effective if Kirby does not land many hits. His [[neutral aerial]] is his worst aerial and is often considered one of the worst aerial attacks in ''Brawl''. It has incredibly high ending lag, mediocre knockback, and poor range. The ending lag makes it impractical for offstage use. However, it is not completely useless; it has no [[landing lag]], and can be used as a air-to-ground transition, and can potentially be used as a setup for tilt attacks. Kirby can also use his Side Special Move, Hammer, as an aerial attack, and it has powerful knocback, and the second hit is a semi-spike, making it useful for edgeguarding. However, it leaves Kirby vulnerable if he misses. Kirby's poor air game, combined with his slow falling speed, makes him prone to aerial juggling, and complicates matchups against characters with powerful aerial games, such as {{SSBB|Meta Knight}}, and characters with good juggling abilities, such as {{SSBB|Zero Suit Samus}}. |
|
| |
|
| ''Criticisms of both Brawl by Melee players and Melee by Brawl players''
| | Overall, Kirby has relatively few weaknesses, and a competent player can overcome some of these, such as his poor aerial attacks, and cover them with Kirby's strengths. His great combo abilities, combined with his high KO power and back aerial, make him a powerful opponent. |
| | |
| ==Differences in communities==
| |
| The ''Melee'' community is notorious for viewing ''Melee'' on a much higher level than the other Smash games. There are many ''Melee'' community members who are considered to be overly vocal about their criticisms of ''Brawl'', and most high-level ''Brawl'' videos on [[YouTube]] are filled with comments criticizing ''Brawl'' for its lack of combos, slow, floaty, and "boring" gameplay, excessive camping, and over-dominance of {{SSBB|Meta Knight}} and the {{SSBB|Ice Climbers}}. These highly vocal ''Melee'' players are criticized by both ''Melee'' and ''Brawl'' community members for being unnecessarily hostile to ''Brawl'', arguing that it gives the ''Melee'' community a bad public image and reputation. The ''Brawl'' community, while currently smaller than the ''Melee'', are much less vocal about their criticisms of ''Melee'', and believe that the changes from ''Melee'' to ''Brawl'' do not make the latter a "worse" game, but that ''Brawl''{{'}}s changes can suit different players' preferences. The ''Brawl'' community tends to have more appreciation for the whole Smash series, and tend to support growth and development in any Smash game. ''Brawl'' players generally argue that unity between between all of the games will help the entire Smash franchise grow and develop. However, the players within the ''Brawl'' community are generally less unified, and are often criticized for being overly negative.
| |
| ''Differences between people in the Melee and Brawl communities''
| |
| | |
| ==History==
| |
| When ''Super Smash Bros. Melee'' was released in 2001, it was the first Smash game to have a large tournament scene. The game was more well-received than the original ''Super Smash Bros.'' by both casual and serious players, due to its larger character roster and the general lack of guaranteed [[zero-to-death combo]]s compared to ''Smash 64''. Local tournaments were hosted frequently throughout the Americas, Europe, and Australia and New Zealand, but [[Tournament Go 6]] in 2004 was the first tournament that brought competition from a much wider geographical area, attracting competition from the whole United States. The ''Melee'' tournament scene remained largely grassroots-based until 2005, when [[Major League Gaming]] picked up ''Melee'' for its 2005 and 2006 Pro Circuit; representation in MLG and other large gaming organizations, such as [[EVO]], caused the ''Melee'' community to enjoy large growth and success.
| |
| | |
| The release of ''Super Smash Bros. Brawl'' in 2008 was expected to cause a decline in the ''Melee'' competitive scene, leaving doubts about the game's future viability; some community members thought the game's tournament activity would die off completely. As expected, after ''Brawl''{{'}}s release, almost all players switched to focusing on ''Brawl'' for a period of time, and the ''Melee'' scene became dormant for the rest of 2008; no major ''Melee'' tournaments were hosted until a year after ''Brawl''{{'}}s release. Local and national ''Brawl'' tournaments saw high attendance (topping 100 entrants even in locals), and ''Brawl'' was featured at EVO in 2008 and 2009, and added to MLG's Pro Circuit in 2010.
| |
| | |
| After extensively playing ''Brawl'', many former ''Melee'' players disliked new changes such as altered hitstun mechanics, generally slower movement and falling speeds, a more camp-oriented style, and the removal of advanced techniques such as wavedashing and L-canceling. These players preferred ''Melee'' to ''Brawl'' and wanted an increase in the ''Melee'' tournament scene; in response, the ''Melee'' scene slowly began to pick up again in early 2009, and [[Revival of Melee]] was the first major gathering of top ''Melee'' players since ''Brawl''{{'}}s release. Unlike before ''Brawl''{{'}}s release, ''Melee''{{'}}s competitive scene returned to being grassroots-based while ''Brawl'' was picked up by MLG and EVO, and ''Brawl'' saw a larger competitive scene than ''Melee'' until around early 2011, when MLG no longer added ''Brawl'' to their Pro Circuit. From 2011 to early 2013, the ''Melee'' and ''Brawl'' scenes saw relatively even tournament activity.
| |
| | |
| However, in 2013, ''Melee'' was featured as a fighting game at [[EVO 2013]]. The tournament saw over 700 entrants and was the largest Smash tournament ever at the time.
| |
| | |
| | |
| | |
| | |
| ''''How the competitive scene has developed over time in Melee and Brawl, and maybe 64 and PM as well''
| |
Log in
