Editing Template talk:SSBU character table
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:Although I do agree EarthBound should be listed before F-Zero as Ness is listed before C.Falcon. | :Although I do agree EarthBound should be listed before F-Zero as Ness is listed before C.Falcon. | ||
:So in conclusion I '''oppose'''.[[User: supatoad64|<span style="color:blue;"> '''SupaToad64''' </span>]] [[ Image: MK64ToadCSP.jpg | :So in conclusion I '''oppose'''.[[User: supatoad64|<span style="color:blue;"> '''SupaToad64''' </span>]] [[ Image: MK64ToadCSP.jpg ]] 04:25, June 21, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:'''Oppose''' The only reason Smash 64's character table is the way it is is because veterans and newcomers aren't a thing in that game, with it being the first Smash game and all. Thus, other games should keep consistency, and thus Ultimate's should be ordered by series. [[User:Awesomelink234|<span style="font-size:10pt;background:#00FF20;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px;color:#050DF7">Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Gamer</span>]] [[User talk:Awesomelink234|Leave a message if needed]] 04:44, June 21, 2019 (EDT) | :'''Oppose''' The only reason Smash 64's character table is the way it is is because veterans and newcomers aren't a thing in that game, with it being the first Smash game and all. Thus, other games should keep consistency, and thus Ultimate's should be ordered by series. [[User:Awesomelink234|<span style="font-size:10pt;background:#00FF20;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px;color:#050DF7">Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Gamer</span>]] [[User talk:Awesomelink234|Leave a message if needed]] 04:44, June 21, 2019 (EDT) | ||
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:Why does it matter if the numbered order doesn’t actually match up with characters’ deputes? It was already said that this wiki is not official, so I don’t see how that would create an inconsistency or problem. Also, if one is fine listening it themselves this way on a different wiki, why wouldn’t they be fine doing also on here? If it’s the echo fighters, then I already explained why that WOULDN’T make an inconsistency, and wouldn’t matter if it did. Same goes for the order of the stages. [[Special:Contributions/172.58.169.12|172.58.169.12]] 09:50, June 21, 2019 (EDT) | :Why does it matter if the numbered order doesn’t actually match up with characters’ deputes? It was already said that this wiki is not official, so I don’t see how that would create an inconsistency or problem. Also, if one is fine listening it themselves this way on a different wiki, why wouldn’t they be fine doing also on here? If it’s the echo fighters, then I already explained why that WOULDN’T make an inconsistency, and wouldn’t matter if it did. Same goes for the order of the stages. [[Special:Contributions/172.58.169.12|172.58.169.12]] 09:50, June 21, 2019 (EDT) | ||
::The difference between WikiBound and SmashWiki is that WikiBound is an EarthBound focused wiki, not a Smash Bros Wiki, and the main reason a Smash Bros page exists on there is because of EarthBound representation, same goes with others like Bulbapedia or Super Mario Wiki. If the order changes between games then it won't affect WikiBound much because its not a Smash Bros wiki and consistency doesn't matter much on there. SmashWiki, however, is a wiki focused on Smash Bros and consistency is more important on here because Smash is the main focus. If the order changes in a later installment then the listing here would be incorrect if we leave it the same, and it will cause confusion. Also in the past we've always listed fighters by series as it makes it more organized and easier to locate a fighter, and then changing the order here would cause confusion and make the characters out of order: Let's say someone browsing this page wants to look up Rosalina then its easier to find her when she's grouped with Mario characters, but if she's listed by number then they'll have to search through a big pile of fighters to find her. Sure they can use the search bar but it makes it more convenient for them to just click on her portrait. If the order eventually changes then it's much harder to rearrange 80+ fighters compares to 12. Even though Smash 64 lists the fighters the way they are in game, they are still grouped by series as the only 2 franchises with more than 1 fighter (Mario and Pokemon) have the fighters in the same spot. There was no real valid reasons to why we should list fighters this way besides it being the "official listing", whereas people have given actual reasons to why we shouldn't.[[User: supatoad64|<span style="color:blue;"> '''SupaToad64''' </span>]] [[ Image: MK64ToadCSP.jpg | ::The difference between WikiBound and SmashWiki is that WikiBound is an EarthBound focused wiki, not a Smash Bros Wiki, and the main reason a Smash Bros page exists on there is because of EarthBound representation, same goes with others like Bulbapedia or Super Mario Wiki. If the order changes between games then it won't affect WikiBound much because its not a Smash Bros wiki and consistency doesn't matter much on there. SmashWiki, however, is a wiki focused on Smash Bros and consistency is more important on here because Smash is the main focus. If the order changes in a later installment then the listing here would be incorrect if we leave it the same, and it will cause confusion. Also in the past we've always listed fighters by series as it makes it more organized and easier to locate a fighter, and then changing the order here would cause confusion and make the characters out of order: Let's say someone browsing this page wants to look up Rosalina then its easier to find her when she's grouped with Mario characters, but if she's listed by number then they'll have to search through a big pile of fighters to find her. Sure they can use the search bar but it makes it more convenient for them to just click on her portrait. If the order eventually changes then it's much harder to rearrange 80+ fighters compares to 12. Even though Smash 64 lists the fighters the way they are in game, they are still grouped by series as the only 2 franchises with more than 1 fighter (Mario and Pokemon) have the fighters in the same spot. There was no real valid reasons to why we should list fighters this way besides it being the "official listing", whereas people have given actual reasons to why we shouldn't.[[User: supatoad64|<span style="color:blue;"> '''SupaToad64''' </span>]] [[ Image: MK64ToadCSP.jpg ]] 11:20, June 21, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:::But there are already inconsistencies which makes no sense as that what the main basis for these reasons why we shouldn’t. 64, Captain Falcon, and third-party are all inconsistencies right now. Plus, because I have been playing Ultimate since it came out, I personally find it much easier to find the characters when ordered the same way as Ultimate. It shouldn’t be a problem for those who play Ultimate. If you wanted info on Rosalina, you can just use the search bar. Same goes for the stages. (Which is not what I am getting at) Forgive me for saying so, but I feel the claim of that it would be inconsistent is more of not wanting to change it for the sake of not wanting change. Before dismissing Ultimate’s order due to the possibly of an inconsistency, please fix the inconsistencies of 64’s roster, as well as the placement of Captain Falcon and the third-party characters so that claim, if wished to be used, is more valid. [[Special:Contributions/172.58.169.12|172.58.169.12]] 11:52, June 21, 2019 (EDT) | :::But there are already inconsistencies which makes no sense as that what the main basis for these reasons why we shouldn’t. 64, Captain Falcon, and third-party are all inconsistencies right now. Plus, because I have been playing Ultimate since it came out, I personally find it much easier to find the characters when ordered the same way as Ultimate. It shouldn’t be a problem for those who play Ultimate. If you wanted info on Rosalina, you can just use the search bar. Same goes for the stages. (Which is not what I am getting at) Forgive me for saying so, but I feel the claim of that it would be inconsistent is more of not wanting to change it for the sake of not wanting change. Before dismissing Ultimate’s order due to the possibly of an inconsistency, please fix the inconsistencies of 64’s roster, as well as the placement of Captain Falcon and the third-party characters so that claim, if wished to be used, is more valid. [[Special:Contributions/172.58.169.12|172.58.169.12]] 11:52, June 21, 2019 (EDT) | ||
::::I think it’s fine as is honestly. None of the things you listed are broken per say. | ::::I think it’s fine as is honestly. None of the things you listed are broken per say. | ||
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:I thought those kind of actions could only be preformed AFTER an agreement had been reached? Regardless, what about third-parties? If third-parties are suppose to be listed last, then they have to be listed after the Mii Fighters for both WiiU3DS and Ultimate as Mii Fighters are FIRST-party. I still do not see what is “wrong” or “confusing” or “inconsistent” with having Ultimate’s page match the game’s, like 64’s before you just changed it (BEFORE any agreement was reached). Why can’t we recreate the lists from the games on here? It honestly WOULD make the most sense. There’s no real reason not to. Why does listing them by “series introduced” make any more sense than their actual orders? [[Special:Contributions/172.58.169.12|172.58.169.12]] 19:05, June 21, 2019 (EDT) | :I thought those kind of actions could only be preformed AFTER an agreement had been reached? Regardless, what about third-parties? If third-parties are suppose to be listed last, then they have to be listed after the Mii Fighters for both WiiU3DS and Ultimate as Mii Fighters are FIRST-party. I still do not see what is “wrong” or “confusing” or “inconsistent” with having Ultimate’s page match the game’s, like 64’s before you just changed it (BEFORE any agreement was reached). Why can’t we recreate the lists from the games on here? It honestly WOULD make the most sense. There’s no real reason not to. Why does listing them by “series introduced” make any more sense than their actual orders? [[Special:Contributions/172.58.169.12|172.58.169.12]] 19:05, June 21, 2019 (EDT) | ||
::OK so upon further investigation it seems F-Zero is indeed almost always listed before EarthBound in the games despite Ness being before Falcon so that explains that. Anyways are there any valid reasons to why they should be listed by number besides it being the official order?[[User: supatoad64|<span style="color:blue;"> '''SupaToad64''' </span>]] [[ Image: MK64ToadCSP.jpg | ::OK so upon further investigation it seems F-Zero is indeed almost always listed before EarthBound in the games despite Ness being before Falcon so that explains that. Anyways are there any valid reasons to why they should be listed by number besides it being the official order?[[User: supatoad64|<span style="color:blue;"> '''SupaToad64''' </span>]] [[ Image: MK64ToadCSP.jpg ]] 19:24, June 21, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:::Are there any valid reasons why we shouldn’t list them by how they are shown in the games other than the wiki not being official? [[Special:Contributions/172.58.175.155|172.58.175.155]] 22:19, June 21, 2019 (EDT) | :::Are there any valid reasons why we shouldn’t list them by how they are shown in the games other than the wiki not being official? [[Special:Contributions/172.58.175.155|172.58.175.155]] 22:19, June 21, 2019 (EDT) | ||
::::If you read my earlier post, I mentioned how Echo Fighters can disrupt the order if the next game declones them as they are listed as the same number as who they were cloned from, and newcomers should not be listed in same place as veterans. The numbers have no real significance besides the marketing hype of all veterans returning, if they actually had significance such as unlock order then that's different. Listing them by series is not only consistant but makes the list more organized, whereas the number based order is just confusing and out of order, especially the Echo Fighter dilemma.[[User: supatoad64|<span style="color:blue;"> '''SupaToad64''' </span>]] [[ Image: MK64ToadCSP.jpg | ::::If you read my earlier post, I mentioned how Echo Fighters can disrupt the order if the next game declones them as they are listed as the same number as who they were cloned from, and newcomers should not be listed in same place as veterans. The numbers have no real significance besides the marketing hype of all veterans returning, if they actually had significance such as unlock order then that's different. Listing them by series is not only consistant but makes the list more organized, whereas the number based order is just confusing and out of order, especially the Echo Fighter dilemma.[[User: supatoad64|<span style="color:blue;"> '''SupaToad64''' </span>]] [[ Image: MK64ToadCSP.jpg ]] 00:09, June 22, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:::::If you read MY earlier post, I explained why that wouldn’t matter. If echos become regular fighter later, it won’t effect Ultimate’s character roster template. I am not saying to change the characters’ listing on the “general” character list, only Ultimate’s roster template. When I had spent an hour on my phone changing the template so I can have an example of what I am trying to explain. [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Template:SSBU_character_table&diff=1248745&oldid=1242468 Right here]. I only want to change the template for the installment(s). [https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_Super_Smash_Bros._series_characters I am NOT talking about THIS page]. Especially considering how well Pokemon Trainer ended up fitting in it, I do not see why we can’t have it in the order that’s in the game. Same goes for 64 (and possibly the other installments). Can my example please be viewed before simply stating that it can’t be? [[Special:Contributions/172.58.175.155|172.58.175.155]] 00:25, June 22, 2019 (EDT) | :::::If you read MY earlier post, I explained why that wouldn’t matter. If echos become regular fighter later, it won’t effect Ultimate’s character roster template. I am not saying to change the characters’ listing on the “general” character list, only Ultimate’s roster template. When I had spent an hour on my phone changing the template so I can have an example of what I am trying to explain. [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Template:SSBU_character_table&diff=1248745&oldid=1242468 Right here]. I only want to change the template for the installment(s). [https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_Super_Smash_Bros._series_characters I am NOT talking about THIS page]. Especially considering how well Pokemon Trainer ended up fitting in it, I do not see why we can’t have it in the order that’s in the game. Same goes for 64 (and possibly the other installments). Can my example please be viewed before simply stating that it can’t be? [[Special:Contributions/172.58.175.155|172.58.175.155]] 00:25, June 22, 2019 (EDT) | ||
::::::The list does look good and there's nothing wrong with wanting the list to be that way. For now though the current list we have is fine as it is and me and the admins gave our reasons why we should leave it the same. If you think we absolutely need to change the order then I recommend discussing it with someoneà like [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|Miles]], as he made the current list.[[User: supatoad64|<span style="color:blue;"> '''SupaToad64''' </span>]] [[ Image: MK64ToadCSP.jpg | ::::::The list does look good and there's nothing wrong with wanting the list to be that way. For now though the current list we have is fine as it is and me and the admins gave our reasons why we should leave it the same. If you think we absolutely need to change the order then I recommend discussing it with someoneà like [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|Miles]], as he made the current list.[[User: supatoad64|<span style="color:blue;"> '''SupaToad64''' </span>]] [[ Image: MK64ToadCSP.jpg ]] 00:59, June 22, 2019 (EDT) | ||
Quite frankly, we've used our own listing for the character rosters from the very beginning - we never did match up with 64's, Melee's, or Brawl's, we didn't do it with Smash 4 either, and, in fact, [[#Order by Smash Debut|this topic has been discussed before]] for this particular table. We don't ''need'' for it to match up with what the game says, since we already have consistency with ourselves. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 01:02, June 22, 2019 (EDT) | Quite frankly, we've used our own listing for the character rosters from the very beginning - we never did match up with 64's, Melee's, or Brawl's, we didn't do it with Smash 4 either, and, in fact, [[#Order by Smash Debut|this topic has been discussed before]] for this particular table. We don't ''need'' for it to match up with what the game says, since we already have consistency with ourselves. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 01:02, June 22, 2019 (EDT) | ||
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::::All across the rest of the wiki, we universally use two orders for things: either alphabetically, or by series. These orders are quite good to sort things by because they are fairly intuitive and used across the majority of the games. By contrast, the Sakurai numbers are harder to use (e.g. it takes more effort to find a character because the subgroups are fewer and larger) and do not have any leniency within subgroups (e.g. with series sort, we could put Peach or Bowser first and there'd be enough precedent for either to make sense). [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Boss 10:00, June 22, 2019 (EDT) | ::::All across the rest of the wiki, we universally use two orders for things: either alphabetically, or by series. These orders are quite good to sort things by because they are fairly intuitive and used across the majority of the games. By contrast, the Sakurai numbers are harder to use (e.g. it takes more effort to find a character because the subgroups are fewer and larger) and do not have any leniency within subgroups (e.g. with series sort, we could put Peach or Bowser first and there'd be enough precedent for either to make sense). [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Boss 10:00, June 22, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:::::Sorry for asking, but what is alphabetical on the wiki? Aside from the OPTION to do so with the tables, I can’t think of an example. I haven’t seen an example for not doing 64’s or Ultimate’s roster like how they do it other than inconsistency, or it’s not a problem the way it is. In the case for Ultimate, why would it be difficult to locate the characters if it matched the order? If anything, I think it makes it easier. After all, I’m looking for a CHARACTER and not a SERIES. Plus, the series are listed under them anyway. Aren’t people who DON’T play Smash a minority on here? [[Special:Contributions/47.199.39.81|47.199.39.81]] 11:45, June 22, 2019 (EDT) | :::::Sorry for asking, but what is alphabetical on the wiki? Aside from the OPTION to do so with the tables, I can’t think of an example. I haven’t seen an example for not doing 64’s or Ultimate’s roster like how they do it other than inconsistency, or it’s not a problem the way it is. In the case for Ultimate, why would it be difficult to locate the characters if it matched the order? If anything, I think it makes it easier. After all, I’m looking for a CHARACTER and not a SERIES. Plus, the series are listed under them anyway. Aren’t people who DON’T play Smash a minority on here? [[Special:Contributions/47.199.39.81|47.199.39.81]] 11:45, June 22, 2019 (EDT) | ||
