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| The system in place before these templates was having buffs, nerfs, and changes in separate subsections. These templates were made to change this into a single section with these three things intermixed, using colour to denote whether something was a buff/nerf/change. The problem: Literally every user other than me attempts to sort such lists by buff/nerf/change, resulting in the list being functionally identical to the previous system, except with huge blocks of colour instead of subsections - and now with SSB4, there also seems to be a pandemic of sub-bullets putting nerfs as "subpoints" of buffs (as opposed to just listing them seperately). It's so toxic that there seems to be no solving it. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Cloronic 12:44, 17 November 2014 (EST) | | The system in place before these templates was having buffs, nerfs, and changes in separate subsections. These templates were made to change this into a single section with these three things intermixed, using colour to denote whether something was a buff/nerf/change. The problem: Literally every user other than me attempts to sort such lists by buff/nerf/change, resulting in the list being functionally identical to the previous system, except with huge blocks of colour instead of subsections - and now with SSB4, there also seems to be a pandemic of sub-bullets putting nerfs as "subpoints" of buffs (as opposed to just listing them seperately). It's so toxic that there seems to be no solving it. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Cloronic 12:44, 17 November 2014 (EST) |
| :So it's supposed to be sorted by what type of move it is (special, standard, smash, air, etc.) without sub-bullets? I saw one of your edits that re-arranged the stuff, and it appeared to be by move type. {{s|user|PikaSamus}} ([[User talk:PikaSamus|talk]]) [[File:PikaSamusSig.png|12px|link=Special:Contributions/PikaSamus|PikaSamus]] 12:52, 17 November 2014 (EST) | | :So it's supposed to be sorted by what type of move it is (special, standard, smash, air, etc.) without sub-bullets? I saw one of your edits that re-arranged the stuff, and it appeared to be by move type. {{s|user|PikaSamus}} ([[User talk:PikaSamus|talk]]) [[File:PikaSamusSig.png|12px|link=Special:Contributions/PikaSamus|PikaSamus]] 12:52, 17 November 2014 (EST) |
| ::Yes indeed: attributes/properties, neutral attack, tilts, dash attack, smashes, aerials, grabs/throws, floors/edges, specials. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Yellow 13:21, 17 November 2014 (EST)
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| ==Deletion== | | ==Deletion== |
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| ::I wasn't even aware of that, I was TOLD by other users to keep nerfs and buffs in separate parts of the section, guessing it kinda got that way from so many users going against it overtime, huh? Either way, moveset order makes more sense, but I don't think enough users will be convinced enough to use that order or delete the templates, and what I meant by "blends together" is that Ness' current change section is confusing without the templates, but it's probably because I'm used to them. [[User:Laikue|Laikue]] ([[User talk:Laikue|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Laikue|contribs]]) 12:53, 17 November 2014 (EST) | | ::I wasn't even aware of that, I was TOLD by other users to keep nerfs and buffs in separate parts of the section, guessing it kinda got that way from so many users going against it overtime, huh? Either way, moveset order makes more sense, but I don't think enough users will be convinced enough to use that order or delete the templates, and what I meant by "blends together" is that Ness' current change section is confusing without the templates, but it's probably because I'm used to them. [[User:Laikue|Laikue]] ([[User talk:Laikue|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Laikue|contribs]]) 12:53, 17 November 2014 (EST) |
| :::One of the uses that I assume is incorrect is the "differences from X" on the clone character pages. I was questioning why we even had those templates there, and someone (can't remember) said that it made it look nice. Anyway, I '''oppose''' deletion. Even if it's tedious, we can always re-arrange them. {{s|user|PikaSamus}} ([[User talk:PikaSamus|talk]]) [[File:PikaSamusSig.png|12px|link=Special:Contributions/PikaSamus|PikaSamus]] 13:01, 17 November 2014 (EST) | | :::One of the uses that I assume is incorrect is the "differences from X" on the clone character pages. I was questioning why we even had those templates there, and someone (can't remember) said that it made it look nice. Anyway, I '''oppose''' deletion. Even if it's tedious, we can always re-arrange them. {{s|user|PikaSamus}} ([[User talk:PikaSamus|talk]]) [[File:PikaSamusSig.png|12px|link=Special:Contributions/PikaSamus|PikaSamus]] 13:01, 17 November 2014 (EST) |
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| Maybe there's something we can do to the templates to keep them without people complaining about mixing the three together. I'm not sure what though. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Yellow 13:21, 17 November 2014 (EST)
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| :<s>We could put a gun to their heads and tell them to deal with it.</s> I really can't think of anything either, maybe shoft the order to the intended order and see how they react? Not, sure how much good that'd do, but I can't think of anything else. [[User:Laikue|Laikue]] ([[User talk:Laikue|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Laikue|contribs]]) 13:31, 17 November 2014 (EST)
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| Wait, so we're planning on deleting them because people aren't using them in the way that it was intended? Doesn't that just mean that nothing will change except we'll have to edit hundreds of different pages to remove these? (In case it wasn't clear, '''oppose''') <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|you]]. Or maybe [[User:Nutta Butta|Nutta.]] </small> 16:40, 17 November 2014 (EST)
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| Yeah I '''oppose''' this too. It's not nearly as efficient without this. [[User:Bulbaboy|Bulbaboy]] ([[User talk:Bulbaboy|talk]]) 16:42, 17 November 2014 (EST)
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| I'm going to '''oppose''' but they are in need of a clean up. Especially all those ones that say moves are more powerful without clarifying whether it's in terms of knockback or damage. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Guybrush20X6|Guybrush20X6]] ([[User talk:Guybrush20X6|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Guybrush20X6|contribs]]) 15:49, November 17, 2014 (CST)</small>
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| '''Oppose''' The templates help visually indicate which ones are buffs, which are nerfs, and which ones are simple changes. Also, since I found another use for the buff/nerf templates, deleting the templates won't do that much good for it. I don't mind rearranging them to moveset order. [[User:Berrenta|Berrenta]] ([[User talk:Berrenta|talk]]) 18:00, 17 November 2014 (EST)
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| :I '''oppose''' this deletion. I personally like them, as it tells what's a buff and what's a nerf; this new style doesn't. Plus it's widely used, and removing them would take time (unless XL does it, but still). <font face="Marker Felt">[[User:Rtzxy|<span style="color:#9f4f3f;">Rtzxy</span>]] [[File:Reflect.jpg|20x20px]] [[User talk:Rtzxy|<span style="color:#66CDAA;">''Reflect!''</span>]]</font> 18:25, 17 November 2014 (EST)
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| I came up with an idea: Keep the icons, remove the coloured text, and enforce the order as described above. It seems that the coloured text is what's guiding people to group them together. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Orchestral 00:02, 19 November 2014 (EST)
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| :I can go with that. [[User:Laikue|Laikue]] ([[User talk:Laikue|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Laikue|contribs]]) 10:32, 19 November 2014 (EST)
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| ::As long as it doesn't create an unnecessary overly difficult amount of changes, I'm fine with anything. <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|you]]. Or maybe [[User:Nutta Butta|Nutta.]] </small> 15:22, 19 November 2014 (EST)
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| == Revamp ==
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| Here's what I plan on doing.
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| #Remove coloured text from these templates. That seems to be the main reason people are falling into the unwanted format.
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| #Add an ability where, upon being provided two pieces of info and a title, it displays something like: "[[Image:Nerf.png|16px]] Up tilt damage: 6.3 → 5.5". This will make one-property changes shorter and more consistent, while still allowing people to type longer pieces of text if a change includes multiple elements.
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| #Enforce a new format for all sections that describe changes. They will be turned into a two-level list, with the following divisions:
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| #*Attributes (speed, weight, stuff like aura, etc)
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| #*Ground attacks (neutral attack, tilts, dash attack, smashes)
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| #*Aerial attacks (five normal aerials, grab aerials, glide attacks)
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| #*Throws/Other attacks (grabs, throws, floor attacks, edge attacks)
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| #*Special moves (specials, Final Smash)
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| This should satisfy what everyone's looking for. Discuss. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] El Pollo 11:46, 20 November 2014 (EST)
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| :'''Support''': That sounds fine to me. Doesn't seem to be anything wrong with it. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]] [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Gamer'''</span>]] 12:00, 20 November 2014 (EST)
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| :(edit conflict)'''Strong support'''. This is much more simple, keeps templates' purpose, and whatnot. It's definitely worth the overhaul. My only question is how the individual air, special, etc. attacks would be ordered. Something like how the custom special menu in ''Smash 3DS'' does it (standard, side, up, down), but with side split into forward and backward for aerials? {{s|user|PikaSamus}} ([[User talk:PikaSamus|talk]]) [[File:PikaSamusSig.png|12px|link=Special:Contributions/PikaSamus|PikaSamus]] 12:02, 20 November 2014 (EST)
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| ::It'd be the same order that the moveset table template has. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Undirigible 12:06, 20 November 2014 (EST)
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| :'''Support''' That idea is a lot better. It keeps its purpose, so it's all good. [[User:Berrenta|Berrenta]] ([[User talk:Berrenta|talk]]) 12:31, 20 November 2014 (EST)
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| :'''Support''': Sounds great to me! I'd love to see a page where this template is used as an example. --[[User:ZeroBlindDragon|ZeroBlindDragon]] ([[User talk:ZeroBlindDragon|talk]]) 19:58, 20 November 2014 (EST)
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| ::'''Support'''. <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|you]]. Or maybe [[User:Nutta Butta|Nutta.]] </small> 14:10, 24 November 2014 (EST)
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| See [[Link (SSB4)]] for the proof of concept; I'm thinking about moving the section to below the moveset though, as the moveset's more important than the changelist. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Different 14:08, 27 November 2014 (EST)
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| :Looks fine to me. Though I liked the colors, that's just my personal preference; I still like the setup, with or without the colors. <font face="Marker Felt">[[User:Rtzxy|<span style="color:#9f4f3f;">Rtzxy</span>]] [[File:Reflect.jpg|20x20px]] [[User talk:Rtzxy|<span style="color:#66CDAA;">''Reflect!''</span>]]</font> 14:11, 27 November 2014 (EST)
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| :'''Support''' Looks neater, better, and easier to read. [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 13:07, 28 November 2014 (EST)
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