Editing Talk:Zelda (SSBM)

why is this tagged for cleanup? [[User:Kperfekt722|Kperfekt722]] ([[User talk:Kperfekt722|talk]]) 03:05, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

:Probably part of a larger project from before the merge that involved removing the Pros & Cons section of all character pages and a general consensus to keep "player guide"-like elements out of the article in terms of some of the strategies listed in the bottom section. --<font color="000023">'''[[User:Randall00|RJM]]'''</font> <sup>''[[User talk:Randall00|Talk]]''</sup> 05:40, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

== "Thus, many rarely use Zelda at all aside from force of will, gimmicks, or for her better horizontal recovery when Sheik is knocked off the stage." ==

Is this really necessary? Or am I just taking this out of context a little?

That statement seems really biased on Shiek's part...like Zelda is totally useless. I can play really good with Zelda (in my opinion, I think Zelda is loooads better than Shiek.) It just seemed a little off to me.

I was thinking of deleting it, but I decided against it and decided to discuss it.

Anyone? [[User:Thomas16521|Thomas16521]] ([[User talk:Thomas16521|talk]]) 23:20, January 27, 2010 (UTC)


I belive that Zelda's  viability as a stand alone fighter is decidedly below average.  She does however, have some use as long as the player is switching between Zelda/ Sheik, so perhaps on the next tier list, Zelda and Shiek could have a placement of thier own like they have on Brawl's tier list. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:216.56.92.44|216.56.92.44]] ([[User talk:216.56.92.44|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/216.56.92.44|contribs]]) 12:09 13 November 2015 (EST)</small>
:First, please sign your comments with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>. Second, please don't revive extremely old discussions. Finally, I can't disagree, but I really don't think we should mention that kind of thing unless we can prove it reflects consensus. [[File:Nyargleblargle.png|16px]][[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color:LawnGreen;text-shadow:0px 0px 2px #ffa500">'''Nyargle</span><span style="color: orange;text-shadow:0px 0px 2px #7cfc00;">blargle'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nyargleblargle|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Nyargleblargle|Contribs]]) 13:03, 13 November 2015 (EST)

==Combo section== 
It is just horrible. Do we really have to cover all of that? I suggest removal of unecessary ones.<span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>[[File:Decepticon.png|19px|:p]] 12:26, 31 December 2010 (EST)
:It definitely needs cleanup. Do what you can, I'll look more into it later. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 11:49, 1 January 2011 (EST)

== 1st Tier List  ==

Why was she placed 6th on the 1st tier list? [[User:YoshiKong|YoshiKong]] ([[User talk:YoshiKong|talk]]) 12:48, 8 December 2014 (EST)
:I took a quick look though [http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=22623 the relevant SmashBoards topic]. Apparently, part of the placement was because "A lot of people put zelda and sheik together so it ended up scewing everything." So it may be an artifact of procedure more than a "Zelda's actually good". [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Different 13:09, 8 December 2014 (EST)

== Clarification about the current wiki page of Zelda==

Alright, I dont really know why people are trying to discredit Zelda over and over. But listen... I think it is important and RELEVANT to mention that Rienne DID win against the BEST GAGNONDORF IN THE WORLD with the character.(In a stream or not, I dont even understand that argument? wth) I think it says alot by itself, and this is not to be taken lightly. If the best of the best Ganondorf got slapped by a mere Zelda, theres a possibility that Ganon (and other characters) might not be AS MUCH of a counter to Zelda than we think?? It is also important to note her strenghts against her high tier matchups, such as her chain grabs, her kill confirms, her counter attacks, etc... Instead of mindlessly spit on her actual options against them. It is also important to document about her Aerial interrupt, since only Zelda and Samus shares this tech (wich is pretty essential due to its utility). It is also important to note her historically favorable matchup against the Ice-climbers. Like OKAY SURE, she does have weaknesses, but the point of this page is to document as much as possible.(especially her strenghts). She still does have some tools against high tier matchups, that you want it or not? @MemeDedede Please stop trolling, its getting old. Thank you. [[User:IceHoneyTea|IceHoneyTea]] ([[User talk:IceHoneyTea|talk]]) 15:30, December 30, 2020 (EST)
:By your Rienne logic, Roy would be a mid/top tier because Zain had defeated several top players with the character (in a Wi-Fi tournament as well, which is still different than offline play), yet even he considers Roy to be a really weak character. Just because one player beat another player with a low/bottom tier doesn't necessarily mean they have untapped potential. Furthermore, there's a difference between talking about Zelda's strengths and sugarcoating them. [[SW:NPOV|We try to keep a neutral point of view]], and phrases such as "currently undervalued by many players" are rather biased. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 09:30, January 12, 2021 (EST)

== Recent upates on the Zelda page ==

Okay, theres clearly some lack of communication. I will start by mentioning the facts. Rienne needs a spot on the Zelda page, especially in the current meta game. Since she is the only one pushing Zeldas meta, theres literally no reason to remove. Second of all, english is not my first language (it is my 3rd out of 6). If theres any grammar issue, dont be shy to edit the typos! Third of all, aerial interupt is a pretty big deal, especially if only 2 characters have this tech. I do not see the reason as to WHY it keeps getting removed. Fourth of all, if anyone has not been updated with Zeldas current metagame, please reffrain from pretending you do. I'm always up to discuss and talk about what should and should not be in the Zelda melee page [[User:IceHoneyTea|IceHoneyTea]] ([[User talk:IceHoneyTea|talk]]) 05:22, January 12, 2021 (EST)
:The root of the issue is that you're not listening to us and proceed to re-add subjective information, even after we remove them and for good reasons. Zelda loses to almost every top and high tier character. Period. Why do you think she's almost universally considered low or even bottom tier? Whether she used to have a favorable matchup against the Ice Climbers in the past is not relevant to the current metagame. As for your arguments, Rienne beating Kage on stream is not notable, why? It was a stream. Streams are not considered actual high level tournament play as they are meant to be casual. As for your recent edits, you're sugarcoating Zelda's negative traits and overselling her positive ones, not to mention there have been times where you downright removed her negative traits. Even if she has ways to deal with top tier characters, her negative traits are more glaring which hinder her and make them impractical to use against those characters. Furthermore many your revisions are blatantly filled with biased information (eg she is "undervalued by most players"). Such information is [[SW:NPOV|not allowed]]. [https://www.ssbwiki.com/Kirby_(SSBU)?action=history&offset=20200219231934%7C1375730&  This is not the first time] we've had issues with users sugarcoating a character's weaknesses, for this Kirby incident it got to a point where [https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/dalm4p/kirby_aerial_frame_data/ we were ridiculed for making Kirby look better than he actually is].
:In short, you trying to oversell Zelda's strengths and sugarcoat her weaknesses and [[SW:WAR|edit warring]] to get them to stay is considered disruptive behavior. Read and take the advice we're trying to give you, because we don't allow such behavior to continue on for long. [[File:Toad.png|20px]] '''[[User:Omega Toad|<font color="deepskyblue">Omegα Toαd,</font>]] [[User talk:Omega Toad|<font color="blue">the Toαd Wαrrior.</font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Omega Toad|<font color="#7B5BEE">(BUP)</font>]]''' 18:20, January 12, 2021 (EST)

::-Okay? so erasing Rienne from the metagame saying shes the only valuable zelda player is false? Her aerial interupt are false? Like i said , once a freaking gain, I dont mind a reality check. I have an issue with denying updated content. She DOES have AIs, rienne IS THE ONLY relevant zelda player. End of the story. Fine dont mention her win on Kage, but at least give her a spot on the metagame. The girl clearly deserves it. If you think she has a bad matchup against icies and that her platform movement suck? you need to open a book once in your life and actually look around you. Lol. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:IceHoneyTea|IceHoneyTea]] ([[User talk:IceHoneyTea|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/IceHoneyTea|contribs]]) 21:57, January 12, 2021 (EST)</small>
:::First of all, [[SW:NPA|no personal attacks]]. That ending comment was entirely unnecessary. Second, why are you freaking out over these edits? We have given you several reasons as to why we keep on reverting your edits, yet not only do you completely ignore it but you continue to push your agenda and sugarcoat Zelda. Whatever tech she has, her weaknesses still overshadow them, which is why many top players still consider her to be one of the worst characters in the game. You may think she "clearly deserves it," but Rienne's results on a national level aren't good, and even her Wi-Fi performances are mostly sub-par, something that [https://smashdata.gg/smash/melee/player/rienne?id=329187 data backs up]. Rienne is also not the only relevant Zelda main, as {{Sm|Kalne}} is ranked in Japan. If you take a second to calm down and read what others and I have put on the table as well as our guidelines, we can discuss this in a more productive manner. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 22:31, January 12, 2021 (EST)

Okay, I will try to write about this while not being influenced by the lack of food. Alright, I want to make a mention about Rienne. Wich, right now, she currently is the only relevant Zelda player to pro-actively push Zelda's meta. There was ALOT, and ALOT of work that has been put into the profane tome (and the guide is not even near completion). So, from an outside perspective, Rienne is currently the only notable person to document such datas and techs for Zelda. From my own perspective, the zelda page is clearly not updated to current days. There is NO WAY on earth to deny the work of Rienne (hence my goal to make her part of it, where she belongs). I cannot tell if you had the chance to peak at this guide, but this is a major piece of data. The way she discovered movement and optimization with the character is something that has never been seen. My point is not to over fantasize Zelda, in fact, it is very far from it. I do tend to get carried away in my writings, like I mentioned, I never clap back to a reality check. Althought, while sugar coating the Zelda page isnt my point, I'm pretty sure it is important to document relevant content that is tied to this wiki. This includes probably the best Zelda-tech guide made to this day, in addition to her potent movement game. Im not saying shes a fast character, far from there, but she certainly is quick in some areas. So far, from what I've seen, no Zelda player EVER has been able to optimize Zelda's movement. Rienne and Cosmo are probably the only one who actually used wavedash / wavesurf alot, to give you an idea. On paper, Zelda does have some amazing platform movement (things that can be added to the page). Althought as you probably know, her development is still very stagnant. This leads to a situation where the receipts are there (theorically), but not the practice itself (tournament-wise). Anyways, all this paragraph to say that the page can be updated with facts, even tho it doesnt give you guys a nice reputation. If anything is sugarcoated, sure have fun removing it. But the way certain mechanics were removed from the page, in addition to discredit Rienne's work, to me thats just bullcrap. Sorry if im being rude, or personally attacking any of your crew, but to constantly discredit --FACTS-- (like certain movement techs) is actually getting the best of me. At this point, if valid content doesnt make it to the Zelda page because of ''reputation'' , we are running into a big issue. 

-This is just me getting some heat off of my chest, dont take it as an attack. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:76.66.137.52|76.66.137.52]] ([[User talk:76.66.137.52|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.66.137.52|contribs]]) 02:10, January 13, 2021 (EST)</small>


- Hey, sorry to come out of no where! But you recently got the attention of some of us, from the Zelda discord. I'm taking the responsability to chime-in on this situation @IceHoneyTea. I cant tell if its just a lack of knowledge on their end, but clearly, there is alot of information that is missing on the Zelda wiki page. Although...to be quite honest, you did ''sugarcoat'' quite a bit on the attributes that you mentionned. 

-Anyways, there is a matchup chart that has been made amongst professional Zelda players. Since I do not know how to insert an image, I'll do my best to describe the general matchup.

-Hardest: Sheik, cap fal.
-Hard: Marth, Fox.
-Doable: Falco, Peach.
-Barely losing: Jiggly, Dr.Mario, Yoshi.
-Even: Ganondorf, Pika, DK.
-Barely winning: Mewtwo, Link, Game&Watch.
-Wins: Samus, Ice-Climbers, Bowser.
-Destroys: Mario, Y-Link, Kirby.
-Shatters: Pichu, Roy, Luigi, Ness.

-This is the general consensus about Zelda's matchup spread. At this point, Zelda will get developped further with time. Until we see how she performs competitively, nothing will change on this page (from what I've seen lmao). 

- About Rienne, she recently placed quite high on a weekly tournament called -Calibration-. Even tho it is quite hard to participate in these kind of events right now, I'm pretty sure that we havent seen the best of her yet. Who knows whats to come!  

-On a last note, it would be pretty cool to implement various Zelda techs on the page. Take care! [[User:Kannade|Kannade]] ([[User talk:Kannade|talk]]) 23:37, January 22, 2021 (EST)

-Little edit: @OmegaToad, you are right by saying that she isnt undervalued by most players, because shes undervalued by EVERYONE. Lol. People straight up disrespect you when you pick Zelda by either disconnecting right away, or showing off a problematic behavior to make you feel like trash. In anthropology, this is something called a dog whistle: Very few people can notice it, but the majority cannot. This is not brand new info tbh, and its not being biased by any stretch of the imagination. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Kannade|Kannade]] ([[User talk:Kannade|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Kannade|contribs]]) 09:22, 2021 January 23</small>
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 -Little edit: @OmegaToad, you are right by saying that she isnt undervalued by most players, because shes undervalued by EVERYONE. Lol. People straight up disrespect you when you pick Zelda by either disconnecting right away, or showing off a problematic behavior to make you feel like trash. In anthropology, this is something called a dog whistle: Very few people can notice it, but the majority cannot. This is not brand new info tbh, and its not being biased by any stretch of the imagination. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Kannade|Kannade]] ([[User talk:Kannade|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Kannade|contribs]]) 09:22, 2021 January 23</small>
--Comment: Many of Zelda's move names are incorrect. Can someone who has permission to edit please fix? It's a quick Google search. I don't know where the previous editor got a lot of the current names. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:132.177.209.176|132.177.209.176]] ([[User talk:132.177.209.176|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/132.177.209.176|contribs]]) 06:38, March 19, 2021</small>
-:Do they come from [[SW:OFFICIAL|a game or an official Nintendo website]]? If not, then no. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 06:52, March 19, 2021 (EDT)
-::Turns out at the time they were incorrect, in that there were names there at all. They've been removed. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 07:00, March 19, 2021 (EDT)
-== When was Zelda officially revealed for Melee? ==
-Sheik was revealed at E3 2001 before Zelda, but there's no documentation anywhere on this wiki about when Zelda herself was revealed. [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 19:01, May 22, 2021 (EDT)
-:Bumping this. I added in this page and her regular page that the box art revealed her since I couldn't find her in any advertisements, but I was born after 2001 so I don't know for certain when Zelda was fully revealed in melee. [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 18:47, June 10, 2021 (EDT)
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