Editing Talk:Weight

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==Horizontal Knockback==
==Horizontal Knockback==
Why does the description say that weight is how far a character can be ''horizontally'' knocked back? Does the weight attribute not factor into vertical knockback? I know it's a video game, but resistance to force doesn't apply in one direction. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Quilt|Quilt]] ([[User talk:Quilt|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Quilt|contribs]]) 09:23, 30 August 2013 (EDT)</small>
Why does the description say that weight is how far a character can be ''horizontally'' knocked back? Does the weight attribute not factor into vertical knockback? I know it's a video game, but resistance to force doesn't apply in one direction. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Quilt|Quilt]] ([[User talk:Quilt|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Quilt|contribs]]) 09:23, 30 August 2013‎ (EDT)</small>
:Yeah that sentence could use improvement. I think the idea was to get across that vertical knockback is also affected by gravity and possibly falling speed. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Engineer 17:49, 30 August 2013 (EDT)
:Yeah that sentence could use improvement. I think the idea was to get across that vertical knockback is also affected by gravity and possibly falling speed. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Engineer 17:49, 30 August 2013 (EDT)
::An easy way to understand weight is to think of it as knockback resistance, since that's all it really does afaik. Falling speed indeed alters the vertical velocity. I made myself a calculator so that I could better understand the physics for the game, although it's not fully complete. Some things are complicated like spiking enemies who are on the ground. Also Sakurai angle seems a bit weird, because the knockback deceleration changes slightly. Next, I'll prolly make a calculator for jumping physics. I already got most of the info down for that, except for Up B moves. I thought it was interesting how if you run while jumping and press Up to jump, you jump at the full height. [[User:Madao|Madao]] ([[User talk:Madao|talk]]) 22:42, 30 August 2013 (EDT)
::An easy way to understand weight is to think of it as knockback resistance, since that's all it really does afaik. Falling speed indeed alters the vertical velocity. I made myself a calculator so that I could better understand the physics for the game, although it's not fully complete. Some things are complicated like spiking enemies who are on the ground. Also Sakurai angle seems a bit weird, because the knockback deceleration changes slightly. Next, I'll prolly make a calculator for jumping physics. I already got most of the info down for that, except for Up B moves. I thought it was interesting how if you run while jumping and press Up to jump, you jump at the full height. [[User:Madao|Madao]] ([[User talk:Madao|talk]]) 22:42, 30 August 2013 (EDT)
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The issue I have with this is that the [[Fighting Wire Frames]] characters are based on Captain Falcon and Zelda. CF has a weight of 104 and Zelda has a weight of 90. So if the female character has a weight of 90 due to copying Zelda's moveset, then that would mean that the male character has a weight of 104, which isn't true according to the trivia point above, stating they all have the weight of 100/98. So it's rather due to the development team possibly forgetting to reset the value to Mario's value for the female character unlike the male character, and all other [[enemy team]] characters.<br>
The issue I have with this is that the [[Fighting Wire Frames]] characters are based on Captain Falcon and Zelda. CF has a weight of 104 and Zelda has a weight of 90. So if the female character has a weight of 90 due to copying Zelda's moveset, then that would mean that the male character has a weight of 104, which isn't true according to the trivia point above, stating they all have the weight of 100/98. So it's rather due to the development team possibly forgetting to reset the value to Mario's value for the female character unlike the male character, and all other [[enemy team]] characters.<br>
[[User:Liggliluff|Liggliluff]] ([[User talk:Liggliluff|talk]]) 07:52, 11 August 2018 (EDT)
[[User:Liggliluff|Liggliluff]] ([[User talk:Liggliluff|talk]]) 07:52, 11 August 2018 (EDT)
== Are we sure the Super Mushroom modifies weight? ==
On [[Talk:Super Mushroom|the talk page for the Super Mushroom]], [[User:Trainer Alex|Trainer Alex]] mentioned that [[Talk:Super Mushroom#Knockback resistance, not weight change (proof from testing)|he had tested]] the [[Super Mushroom]]'s effects and found that it does not modify the [[frame speed multiplier]] of weight-sensitive throws, but does modify knockback received from high base-knockback moves like Ness's forward throw at 0% (for some reason, weight does nothing to base knockback), and also modifies knockback recieved from weight-ignoring moves such as Cloud's [[Finishing Touch]]. From this, he concluded that the Super Mushroom increases [[knockback resistance]], not weight (and likewise that the [[Poison Mushroom]] reduces knockback resistance, not weight). Now, I'm quite sure that there are other effects weight has outside of knockback — weight-sensitive [[platform]]s being the one that immediately comes to mind — and those never came up in the tests mentioned on the talk page. Plus, the whole "Finishing Touch survival" thing could also be explained by increased [[fall speed]], which is another effect of the Super Mushroom. Can we do some more testing to determine whether or not the Super Mushroom, Poison Mushroom, and [[Metal Box]] actually do affect weight, and not just other knockback modifiers such as knockback resistance, fall speed, and [[gravity]]? --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 15:25, 28 August 2018 (EDT)
:Regarding those tests, the oversight I made was that I assumed that weight dependant throws would be bound by temporary weight modifiers, when as it turns out they are not, and they simply use the character's base weight. However the scales on [[Garden of Hope]] are bound by weight modifiers, and demonstrate that all 3 of the above items '''''are''''' also modifying weight. The other two tests on that talk page do confirm that launch rate modifiers are also used, but say nothing about weight modifiers. ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 17:56, 28 August 2018 (EDT)
== Weight and size KO differences ==
In ''Ultimate'', vertical KOs are now not only based on a fighter's weight (and, to a lesser extent, gravity), but also their size. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH7IDQ_8vic&t=208s In this video], which shows what percentage Greninja's down taunt can KO, Ganondorf and Incineroar both get KO'd at 652%, despite the latter being only 2 units lighter than the former, and Charizard at 660%, despite being only 2 units lighter than Ganondorf, and weighing the same as its fellow Pokémon. [[User:Juju1995|Juju1995]] ([[User talk:Juju1995|talk]]) 10:34, January 24, 2022 (EST)
:This is actually something fairly interesting. Hitstun animations are known to affect KO percents off the top. For example, moves with high launch angles outside the 70-110 range can cause the spin reel hitstun animation, which will result in the victim being able to survive longer. The reason for this is because most hitstun animations cause the victim to drift upwards, shifting where the game considers them to be, relative to the blast zone. The spin reel animation has no upward drift at all. In the case of Ganondorf, his vertical hitstun animation has severe upward drift (see [https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/350063361901199361/935342165075320842/IMG_4766.jpg here]). This will result in him dying earlier off the top than expected for his weight. This issue is exacerbated by Greninja's down taunt having very little knockback growth. This means the launch distance change per percent is much smaller, and thus the effect of hitstun animations on KO percent will be amplified.
:Being larger probably doesn't help (I don't know exactly how much of the fighter has to cross the blast line for a KO to occur), but hitstun animations probably have more to do with the effect you're seeing. There's no real way to quantify this effect, as it changes on a move by move basis due to differences in launch angle and knockback growth, but the effect can be shown qualitatively. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 20:25, January 24, 2022 (EST)
::That was my next suggestion. So his environmental collision box (or ECB) is stretched more upward during his DamageFlyTop animation, thus making him more likely to be KO'd vertically. Maybe that's why the player cursor is placed much higher. [[User:Juju1995|Juju1995]] ([[User talk:Juju1995|talk]]) 22:44, January 24, 2022 (EST)

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