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| [[User:Unnamed anon]] put the column [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Unlockable_character&diff=1797731&oldid=1797720 back], stating that the numbers are still a useful metric for the minimum amount of time needed to play to unlock everyone. | | [[User:Unnamed anon]] put the column [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Unlockable_character&diff=1797731&oldid=1797720 back], stating that the numbers are still a useful metric for the minimum amount of time needed to play to unlock everyone. |
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| I disagree with this; I don't think the numbers are useful. To have any accuracy, the player would have to start a blank save file, deliberately ignore both World of Light and Classic Mode, then play continuously for 10 hours and 20 minutes without ever closing the game. Even a hypothetical player who hates singleplayer Smash, plays exclusively VS Mode, and wants to unlock everyone wouldn't do this - they'd just close and reopen the game a bunch to skip the 10-minute waits. You can't even say "play for a combined total of 10 hours and 20 minutes with breaks in between", because each break will do a timer drain (if I understand correctly) and you'd also have to take the strange step of leaving the game open during every break. You'd have to come up with a scenario like "there's someone who hates singleplayer Smash, plays exclusively VS Mode, doesn't particularly want to unlock everyone, and plays matches continuously without ever closing the game - how long would such a player take to unlock everyone?". It seems pretty nonsensical to provide wait times that are only accurate if you aren't trying to unlock everyone. [[User:Zowayix|Zowayix]] ([[User talk:Zowayix|talk]]) 03:10, May 14, 2023 (EDT) | | I disagree with this; I don't think the numbers are useful. To have any accuracy, the player would have to start a blank save file, deliberately ignore both World of Light and Classic Mode, then play continuously for 10 hours and 20 minutes without ever closing the game. Even a hypothetical player who hates singleplayer Smash, plays exclusively VS Mode, and wants to unlock everyone wouldn't do this - they'd just close and reopen the game a bunch to skip the 10-minute waits. You can't even say "play for a combined total of 10 hours and 20 minutes with breaks in between", because each break will do a timer drain (and you'd also have to take the strange step of leaving the game open during every break). You'd have to come up with a scenario like "there's someone who hates singleplayer Smash, plays exclusively VS Mode, doesn't particularly want to unlock everyone, and plays matches continuously without ever closing the game - how long would such a player take to unlock everyone?". It seems pretty nonsensical to provide wait times that are only accurate if you aren't trying to unlock everyone. [[User:Zowayix|Zowayix]] ([[User talk:Zowayix|talk]]) 03:10, May 14, 2023 (EDT) |
| :I said minimum. That is true. World of light is clearly longer for reasons I hope I shouldn't explain, and classic mode, while it can be spedrun, isn't done by most of the playerbase, and thus usually also takes more than 10 minutes. I get that you can close and reopen the game to bypass that timer, but I'm very certain that is just a glitch that was never patched because it made unlocking faster. [[User:Unnamed anon|Unnamed anon]] ([[User talk:Unnamed anon|talk]]) 04:45, May 14, 2023 (EDT) | | :I said minimum. That is true. World of light is clearly longer for reasons I hole I shouldn't explain, and classic mode, while it can be spedrun, isn't done by most of the playerbase, and thus usually also takes more than 10 minutes. [[User:Unnamed anon|Unnamed anon]] ([[User talk:Unnamed anon|talk]]) 04:45, May 14, 2023 (EDT) |
| ::It's possible to unlock everyone in World of Light in less than 10 hours, but I agree we're already considering a person playing VS Mode exclusively, so that doesn't matter.
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| ::As a test, I just beat Classic Mode four times in a row with characters I've almost never used, and all four times it took comfortably under 10 minutes.
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| ::The timer reset being a glitch and/or unintended behavior by the devs is speculation, especially since it's highly unlikely the devs intend someone to play for 10.3 hours without ever closing the game (therefore, the devs know that the average player will reset the timer at least once).
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| ::The timer reset being "a glitch that was known and deliberately left unpatched" is super-speculation.
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| ::This may also partially conflate with rumors from around v1.2.0 that were like "oh they patched out the 1-stock SD reset strat" -> "wait no they didn't".
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| ::Finally, let's say the intended meaning is "the minimum amount of time needed to unlock each character through VS Mode, assuming that timer reset is a glitch and is not used".
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| ::Then that seems like it's not true either, because [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBe-09o_Yj4 here's] a video of someone unlocking 5 characters through VS Mode in 19 minutes without closing the game. [[User:Zowayix|Zowayix]] ([[User talk:Zowayix|talk]]) 19:52, May 14, 2023 (EDT)
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| :::There's some circumstantial evidence that the time delay may not always be 10 minutes (or may be shorter for the first few chars and longer for the last few chars), because after all that's what the number of in-battle actions requirement does. I don't think anyone's bothered to specifically test something like Dr. Mario -> Palutena without doing a reset in between. If you or anyone else could test this with a bot or something, I'd be fine with putting the column back. (e.g. Something like "do a 1-minute crouch spam -> see if anyone's unlocked -> do a 1-minute crouch spam -> see if anyone's unlocked" and have the bot count how many minutes pass between each challenger. I expect 1 minute for the first 5 characters and 10 minutes for the next few, and who knows after that because I don't know if anyone's tested. Then there's the possibility of testing certain amounts of inputs and 0 minutes instead of 1, by just entering and exiting World of Light no more than five times.) The whole thing gets complicated quick, which is why it's no wonder that everyone tried the faster strats (WoL/Classic/reset) first and not the 9.7-10.3 hour strat attempt. [[User:Zowayix|Zowayix]] ([[User talk:Zowayix|talk]]) 01:28, May 15, 2023 (EDT)
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| Why were all of the following reverted?
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| * Video proof that it's possible to unlock 5 characters from VS Matches with no resetting in well under 40 minutes
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| * Video proof that the 10-minute delay won't apply even halfway down the table if everyone above is unlocked through a different method first
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| * Evidence that versus matches and time alone isn't enough to unlock everyone (this important unlock criterion is nowhere in the current version of the article)
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| * Info about how many in-battle actions is enough to unlock 62 characters versus 63 characters
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| * Incomplete tag about timed encounter -> timed encounter rematch versus timed encounter -> Challenger's Approach rematch (which neither version of the article answers)
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| * Incomplete tag about menu idling versus the time delay (which neither version of the article answers)
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| * Three reference links
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| * Formatting issue where the article skips from a 2nd level heading to a 4th level heading
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| * Grammatical fixes
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| [[User:Zowayix|Zowayix]] ([[User talk:Zowayix|talk]]) 04:47, May 16, 2023 (EDT)
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| :I wrote a bot to actually do a couple dozen hours of tests. This is where the new "Actions required (approx.)" column comes from. The bot also verified that the wait time is 10 minutes for every single character after Inkling.
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| :For posterity, the tests I used were:
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| :*Open World of Light and back out. See if anyone challenges the player. If not, crouch 100 times in a VS match. See if anyone challenges the player. Close the game and reopen it. Repeat 81 times. (Self-destruct out of all challenges as soon as possible.)
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| :*On a new Switch user, crouch 8,100 times in a VS match (then self-destruct out of Ness's challenge). Start a stopwatch. Open World of Light and back out. Repeat ~20 times until someone challenges the player. Reset the stopwatch. Repeat until everyone has challenged the player.
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| :(There were also many smaller tests, such as making sure 1,400 inputs alone is enough to unlock five characters with no timers, which takes about 5 minutes.)
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| :[[User:Zowayix|Zowayix]] ([[User talk:Zowayix|talk]]) 23:44, June 16, 2023 (EDT)
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| :::You don’t need to justify any of your actions on this talk page anymore, unless you really want to. You clearly did your research, and I trust you. [[User:Unnamed anon|Unnamed anon]] ([[User talk:Unnamed anon|talk]]) 20:23, June 18, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::::Thanks. [[User:Zowayix|Zowayix]] ([[User talk:Zowayix|talk]]) 03:59, June 19, 2023 (EDT)
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| == Version updates ==
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| For posterity, all of the above tests were performed on v2.0.1. On v13.0.1, I re-tested that the first 5 Challenger Approaching fights still have no wait time requirement, but Classic Mode still takes up one of these five slots. [[User:Zowayix|Zowayix]] ([[User talk:Zowayix|talk]]) 04:25, July 4, 2023 (EDT)
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| == When was this ever a feature? ==
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| [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/AntiFrustrationFeatures/SuperSmashBros TV Tropes said here] the following: “Even more, you don't have to go through the method to unlock them to fight them again — just play a normal match, and they'll show up again when the battle ends”
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| I had this happen with {{SSB4|Duck Hunt}} the first time I played ''Smash Wii U'' (through the Cruel Smash method) and I think I had this happen the first time I tried to unlock {{SSBB|Lucario}} in ''Brawl'' (through the Target Smash method) but I don’t remember this ever being a feature especially in ''Smash 64'' or ''Melee''. Can anyone verify which game this started being a thing in? [[File:Gligar2007sig1.png|25px]][[User:Gligar2007|<span style="color:red;">'''Gligar'''</span>]][[User talk:Gligar2007|<span style="color:blue;">'''2007'''</span>]][[File:Gligar2007sig2.png|25px]] 23:12, August 23, 2024 (EDT)
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| :That's definitely how it worked in Brawl. I don't remember how it worked in Smash 4 and Ultimate though since I was just trying to unlock all the characters quickly so I can actually use them. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 23:16, August 23, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::Does anyone know if this was a thing in ''Smash 64'' or ''Melee''? [[File:Gligar2007sig1.png|25px]][[User:Gligar2007|<span style="color:red;">'''Gligar'''</span>]][[User talk:Gligar2007|<span style="color:blue;">'''2007'''</span>]][[File:Gligar2007sig2.png|25px]] 17:11, August 24, 2024 (EDT)
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| == High-pitch noise in melee's challenger approach audio ==
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| I was listening to the audio and for some reason there is a high-pitched screech in Melee's challenger approach audio. Pls fix this. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:LongT|LongT]] ([[User talk:LongT|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/LongT|contribs]]) 06:15, September 18, 2024 (EDT)</small>
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| :Are you saying the audio on the wiki has a high-pitched screech? If so, I don't hear it. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 06:28, September 18, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::Opened in Audacity and there was a high-pitched line in there, but I had to pitch-shift it a lot to hear it (though that says a concerning thing about my own hearing). Recorded a new one from the debug menu that doesn't have it. I'll trim it and upload it in a bit --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 06:47, September 18, 2024 (EDT)
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