Editing Talk:Tier list
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{{notice|We understand that tiers are a point of contention among members of the Smash community. However, this page discusses the tier lists that the Smash Back Room | {{notice|We understand that tiers are a point of contention among members of the Smash community. However, this page discusses the tier lists that the Smash Back Room have posted. These are accepted by almost every high level player, and as such are important and notable content to this wiki. Discussion on this talk page should be limited to the content of the page, not to debate on the ordering of tiers, '''we report the tier lists, we don't decide them'''. If you want to discuss the tier lists, go to these forums; ([[Forum:Tier List Discussion (Smash 4)|forum for Smash 4]], [[Forum:Tier List Discussion (Melee)|forum for Melee]]). If you want to argue tier placements, take it to Smashboards, not here. | ||
Additionally, '''do not use this page to argue about the existence of tiers'''. If you firmly believe tiers do not exist and are intent on changing the Wiki's stance about it, go see the argument we have on it on [[User:Semicolon/Treatise on the Existence of Tiers|this page here]], and thoroughly refute the treatise on its talk page, do not argue it here.}} | Additionally, '''do not use this page to argue about the existence of tiers'''. If you firmly believe tiers do not exist and are intent on changing the Wiki's stance about it, go see the argument we have on it on [[User:Semicolon/Treatise on the Existence of Tiers|this page here]], and thoroughly refute the treatise on its talk page, do not argue it here.}} | ||
<big>'''Simplified version of the above: <span style="color:green">Don't edit this page unless you have something to contribute about ''what'' | <big>'''Simplified version of the above: <span style="color:green">Don't edit this page unless you have something to contribute about ''what'' the SBR said and the content of this article. We don't care if you disagree with them or tiers in general.</span></big>''' | ||
==Where is Ultimate's tier list?== | ==Where is Ultimate's tier list?== | ||
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It could be based on character vs character results, adjusted by stock difference/match duration (but not based on total victories, beyond determining their match-up against a particular character, as popularity alone would drive that number higher)? At the least, it would only be based on information that should not be affected by bias (beyond that of the players choosing which characters to use at the time). While early on it would surely show many less-popular characters as "low-tier" merely due to reduced usage (as there is a LOT of characters), it could start giving a real idea of how they really do match up, and over time it would start to show. [[User:Jarie Suicune|Jarie Suicune]] ([[User talk:Jarie Suicune|talk]]) 16:48, September 4, 2021 (EDT) | It could be based on character vs character results, adjusted by stock difference/match duration (but not based on total victories, beyond determining their match-up against a particular character, as popularity alone would drive that number higher)? At the least, it would only be based on information that should not be affected by bias (beyond that of the players choosing which characters to use at the time). While early on it would surely show many less-popular characters as "low-tier" merely due to reduced usage (as there is a LOT of characters), it could start giving a real idea of how they really do match up, and over time it would start to show. [[User:Jarie Suicune|Jarie Suicune]] ([[User talk:Jarie Suicune|talk]]) 16:48, September 4, 2021 (EDT) | ||
:First, what you describe is honestly very complicated to the point where the effort may not be worth it (it also requires actual coding and data structure rather than wikitext, something that most users on here most likely do not know). Even if we were able to do that, it is still not an accurate representation of the current metagame. Remember, representation is just one (albeit, major) part of tier lists. There's also their overall strengths and weaknesses as well as matchups against other characters, which can't easily be measured solely through competitive matches. If we base it solely on representation in tournament, then [https://twitter.com/LoopBarnard/status/1432416432281772036 the current top 3 would be R.O.B., Roy, and Palutena], a top three that almost no one would agree with. Furthermore, even if there is a character considered top tier, if the character doesn't have great representation, they aren't ever going to be ranked that high. For example, Pikachu is widely considered a top 10 character, with some going as far as to say the best, thanks to its good frame data. However, [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AJs-mj5TTdkmkl7nhj4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs/edit#gid=342014565 Pikachu is only ranked 23rd for usage in 2019] and is barely in top 30 for usage in 2021; both placements aren't considered top tier. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 17:23, September 4, 2021 (EDT) | :First, what you describe is honestly very complicated to the point where the effort may not be worth it (it also requires actual coding and data structure rather than wikitext, something that most users on here most likely do not know). Even if we were able to do that, it is still not an accurate representation of the current metagame. Remember, representation is just one (albeit, major) part of tier lists. There's also their overall strengths and weaknesses as well as matchups against other characters, which can't easily be measured solely through competitive matches. If we base it solely on representation in tournament, then [https://twitter.com/LoopBarnard/status/1432416432281772036 the current top 3 would be R.O.B., Roy, and Palutena], a top three that almost no one would agree with. Furthermore, even if there is a character considered top tier, if the character doesn't have great representation, they aren't ever going to be ranked that high. For example, Pikachu is widely considered a top 10 character, with some going as far as to say the best, thanks to its good frame data. However, [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AJs-mj5TTdkmkl7nhj4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs/edit#gid=342014565 Pikachu is only ranked 23rd for usage in 2019] and is barely in top 30 for usage in 2021; both placements aren't considered top tier. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 17:23, September 4, 2021 (EDT) | ||
