Editing Talk:Steve (SSBU)

==Deletion==
I noticed how Min Min's table can multiple columns: one for each of her different ARMS.

Since it was confirmed that different materials will effect the damage, should we make a table that lists each material in different columns (and maybe a column named "Steve" can be used to represent moves that either don't use crafted weapons, or that are used while the weapon is broken)? 

Once again, this is only for when Steve is released. I'm not proposing it should be done now. Just wanted to bring it up and see what everyone thinks.[[User:my lol|My lol]] ([[User talk:Thecontributor22|talk]]) 18:08, October 3, 2020 (EDT)

This definitely seems like the most logical way to do it. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 18:40, October 3, 2020 (EDT)

I was going to suggest this as well. [[User:0%Kamikazee|0%Kamikazee]] ([[User talk:0%Kamikazee|talk]]) 18:57, October 3, 2020 (EDT)

I agree with this, too. Seems like the most logical way to approach things. [[User:KingMaiz|KingMaiz]] ([[User talk:KingMaiz|talk]]) 14:11, October 4, 2020 (EDT)


: This is what I had in mind. Apologies if it seems a little messed up.

{{MovesetTable
|game=SSBU
|customcolumns=Steve!!Wood!!Stone!!Iron!!Gold!!Diamond
|customcolumnscount=6
}}

I saw the beginning of Min Min's table in the editing mode, and based it off of that. Sorry if it looks a little messed up right now. [[User:Thecontributor22|Thecontributor22]] ([[User talk:Thecontributor22|talk]]) 09:21, October 5, 2020 (EDT)

I  think it depends on the strength of the projectile. I also had that happen  by trying to block charge shot with shadow flare, and it only blocked the uncharged charge shot. [[User:Sarah|Sarah]] ([[User talk:Sarah|talk]]) 15:32, December 22, 2020 (EST)

== FE3H reference? ==

Hey, this may sound silly because ''Minecraft'' has no connection to ''Fire Emblem: Three Houses'', but I saw [https://www.reddit.com/r/shitpostemblem/comments/j3dsr9/wtf_minecraft_steve_referenced_three_houses/ this post]. It claims that Steve's trailer references ''Three Houses'' cutscene. Steve and Byleth are in the light. Mario and Dimitri are in the dark, presumably both surprised; Mario surprised about Steve and Dimitri assuming Byleth was the ghost. [[File:Derekblue1SigHead1.png|20px|link=]] [[User:Derekblue1|<span style="color:#20B2AA;">'''Derekblue1'''</span>]] [[User talk:Derekblue1|<span style="color:#20B2AA;">(talk)</span>]] [[File:Derekblue1SigHead2.png|20px|link=]] 19:16, October 8, 2020 (EDT)
:It's a somewhat generic shot, so I don't think so. Judging by the title, this post seems to be more of a joke anyway. ~ [[User:Serena Strawberry|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Serena Strawberry'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Serena Strawberry|talk]]) 19:22, October 8, 2020 (EDT)
::I understand now. Thank you for the response, Serena Strawberry. [[File:Derekblue1SigHead1.png|20px|link=]] [[User:Derekblue1|<span style="color:#20B2AA;">'''Derekblue1'''</span>]] [[User talk:Derekblue1|<span style="color:#20B2AA;">(talk)</span>]] [[File:Derekblue1SigHead2.png|20px|link=]] 20:18, October 8, 2020 (EDT)

== Should Values Which Have Two Decimal Places (Such as Diamond Neutral Attack at 4.59%) be Shown With One or Two Decimal Places? ==

For characters such as [[Terry_(SSBU)|Terry]] or [[Captain Falcon (SSBU)|Captain Falcon]], values are shown to the first decimal place on the wiki if that damage value has a decimal place. However, for characters such as [[Joker (SSBU)]], an attack such as [[Joker (SSBU)/Up aerial|Joker's up aerial]] shows 0.75% for hits 1-4 on full hop and 0.6375% on short hop on the wiki. For Steve, attacks such as neutral attack and forward tilt have values to the second decimal which do exist and take effect in game and are not just calculation by-products. Should the values be shown to the second decimal place or just to the first in the move table?

Here are the values for neutral attack and forward tilt if they were to the second place:
{| class="wikitable"
|-
| None || Wooden || Stone || Iron || Golden || Diamond
|-
| 2.72% || 3.40% || 3.74% || 4.08% || 3.40% || 4.59%
|}

I believe having it to the second place will make sure people know precisely what the damage value of each material type is. [[User:Frostauk|Frostauk]] ([[User talk:Frostauk|talk]]) 09:16, October 14, 2020 (EDT)
:We show the values as they are defined by the game, and thus should be as many decimal places as necessary - show them all, but don't show needless zeroes. The only exception is for rounding errors caused by (insert long explanation of how decimal points work in computers here which only matters if the damage is 10.99999 or something). [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] Le Grand Fromage 17:20, October 14, 2020 (EDT)

== Add what blocks Steve gets on each stage? ==

Should we add what blocks appear on which stage for Steve to use?

==Durability Tests==
I did some tests for the durability of each weapon and each material. What I did was test how many times a lone move can be used before the weapon breaks. These are my results:

Neutral/Side Tilt/Neutral Aerial/Floor Attacks/ Edge Attack: 13 times (Wood & Gold), 20 times (Stone)/ 25 times (Iron & Diamond)

Forward Smash: 3 times (Wood, Stone) 4 times (Iron & Diamond), 2 times (Gold)

Up Tilt/Up Aerial: 13 times (Wood & Gold), 16 times (Stone), 18 times (Iron & Diamond)

Dash Attack: 16 times (Wood & Gold), 19 times (Stone), 22 times (Iron & Diamond)

Forward Aerial/Back Aerial: 11 times (Wood & Gold), 14 times (Stone), 15 times (Iron & Diamond)

Mining: 28 items (Wood & Gold), 34 items (Stone), 38 (Iron & Diamond)

I can't make sense of how this durability system works, but maybe someone else can make use of this information. [[User:Thecontributor22|Thecontributor22]] ([[User talk:Thecontributor22|talk]]) 20:24, October 14, 2020 (EDT)

Could we turn this into information on how many resources each move uses? [[User:0%Kamikazee|0%Kamikazee]] ([[User talk:0%Kamikazee|talk]]) 23:17, October 14, 2020 (EDT)
:I recommend we wait. In a few days, we should get the list of character values extracted, which will contain all this information without requiring much guesswork. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Eggster 23:20, October 14, 2020 (EDT)
::Meshima recently posted some tweets regarding durability [https://twitter.com/Meshima_/status/1317228490329001984] [https://twitter.com/Meshima_/status/1317228556305408002]. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 18:53, October 16, 2020 (EDT)
:::Should we put this information into the form of a table and document it somewhere on the wiki (of course, while citing the source as well)? [[User:Thecontributor22|Thecontributor22]] ([[User talk:Thecontributor22|talk]]) 23:45, October 18, 2020 (EDT)

:::Maybe the durability could look something like this:
{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Weapon!!Wood!!Stone!!Iron!!Gold!!Diamond
|-
!Sword
| 25 || 40 || 50 || 25 || 50
|-
!Axe/Pickaxe/Shovel
| 70 || 85 || 95 || 70 || 95
|}
And how much is consumed could look like this:

{| class="wikitable"
!Move!!Wood!!Stone!!Iron!!Gold!!Diamond
|-
! Neutral Attack/Forward Tilt/Neutral Aerial
| colspan="5" | 2
|-
! Forward Smash
| 9 || 14 || 14 || 18 || 14
|-
! Ledge Attack/Floor Attacks
| colspan="5" | 2
|-
! Up Tilt/Up Aerial
| colspan="5" | 5.5
|-
! Dash Attack
| colspan="5" | 4.5
|-
! Forward Aerial/Back Aerial
| colspan="5" | 6.5
|}
It's just an idea, though. That's why I want to run it by first. [[User:Thecontributor22|Thecontributor22]] ([[User talk:Thecontributor22|talk]]) 07:49, October 19, 2020 (EDT)
:It may be important to note how up smash doesn't use durability, either in the table or in a description. It's also missing "Mine". Other than that I think it'll work. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 08:23, October 19, 2020 (EDT)
::Sure thing. In that case, I'll make some adjustments. [[User:Thecontributor22|Thecontributor22]] ([[User talk:Thecontributor22|talk]]) 11:37, October 19, 2020 (EDT)

== Pronouns ==

In Minecraft, everything in Minecraft don’t have a gender. So should we refer by what Sakurai says or what regularly Minecraft says? [[User:RobbyB3ll4s|RobbyB3ll4s]] ([[User talk:RobbyB3ll4s|talk]]) 16:11, October 17, 2020 (EDT)

Also I apologize for doing that dumb edit before also. I should’ve asked here and shouldn’t have done something like that without asking. [[User:RobbyB3ll4s|RobbyB3ll4s]] ([[User talk:RobbyB3ll4s|talk]]) 16:15, October 17, 2020 (EDT)
:It's okay! I also put a note on your talk page. Generally, what Sakurai says is what we go with, unless there's something else in more popular usage. In this case, since Sakurai used "he" and most everyone agrees with that, it's fine to use "he". It's also worth noting that something that's genderless can still use gendered pronouns; pronouns aren't the same as gender. ~ [[User:Serena Strawberry|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Serena Strawberry'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Serena Strawberry|talk]]) 16:21, October 17, 2020 (EDT)

== Quotes ==

I think having ''five'' quotes on top of the page is way to many. Should we remove these introduction taglines, since they don't provide any more info than images in gallery? [[Special:Contributions/217.149.243.2|217.149.243.2]] 08:26, October 24, 2020 (EDT)
:{{SSBU|Byleth}} does this, too. I think you should go ahead and get rid of all the taglines but the main ones on both pages (leaving "Byleth Joins Smash House!" and "Steve Rocks the Block!") and see how that sets with the greater community. Be sure to state that you're doing it for consistency with Steve when you do it to Byleth. Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="font-family: Lithos Pro"><span style="color: #0123A8">'''Banjo-'''</span><span style="color: #FF1901">'''Kazooie'''</span></span>]] Boss. [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 12:41, October 24, 2020 (EDT)

== The victory steak change ==

Should we mention why they made the steak disappear after Steve/Alex/Zombie/Enderman eats it on their victory screen in Version 9.0.1? (Because a lot of people said it looked phallic.) [[User:CleffaGirl173|CleffaGirl173]] ([[User talk:CleffaGirl173|talk]]) 07:43, October 27, 2020 (EDT)
:Already mentioned in the Trivia section (4th bullet point as of writing). --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 08:05, October 27, 2020 (EDT)

== Down tilt ==

It says in the article that down tilt can block projectiles. However, I have found this to be untrue. It cannot block Samus's full Charged Shot, nor can it block Joker's Eiagon with Arsene. It looks like it can only block weak projectiles? Sorry if I'm wrong, I'm new here. [[User:PSMDMaster|PSMDMaster]] ([[User talk:PSMDMaster|talk]]) 12:51, December 16, 2020 (EST)

==Aesthetics==
I noticed that when steve falls from high enough, he will make the noise that happens in minecraft when he takes fall damage. Should this be added into the article? [[User:Sarah|Sarah]] ([[User talk:Sarah|talk]]) 15:32, December 22, 2020 (EST)
:It is already mentioned in the trivia section. Also always put new sections at the bottom of a talk page. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 18:51, December 22, 2020 (EST)
[[Special:Contributions/76.224.228.130|76.224.228.130]] 21:02, February 12, 2021 (EST) wHY no netherite

==Elytra Vertical Recovery==
I noticed that every elytra section mentions its vertical recovery being poor, but this only occurs when you use the move incorrectly. With the use of certain recovery techniques, you can make it go significantly further, enough to make elytra get to ledge from beyond the bottom camera border. Pretty much every good Steve extends elytra's vertical distance. A great example would be in this clip from Yonni. [https://clips.twitch.tv/FastBusyCroquetteDBstyle-QPyutQDvwYLndeqB/ Twitch Clip][[User:Tytaneum|Tytaneum]] ([[User talk:Tytaneum|talk]]) 13:52, May 16, 2021 (EDT)

==Redstone==
I think it's probably worth mentioning how irrelevant redstone is. I've labbed it pretty extensively, and you can't actually run out of it unless you use specific setups to do so. The only almost practical way to do it is by placing extremely long lines of TNT with starting materials, and even then you regain a ton every time you mine redstone. Because you burn little and gain so much, you always run out of other materials first (Block mats for TNT and gold/iron for minecarts.) This makes redstone not really worth thinking about and "If Steve is out of redstone..." situations nonexistant. [[User:Tytaneum|Tytaneum]] ([[User talk:Tytaneum|talk]]) 14:06, May 16, 2021 (EDT)

== About the term ‘units’ ==
I believe minecraft terms mean minecraft vocab, and no minecraft player calls wooden planks or iron ingots ‘units of wood or units of iron’. It’s even labelled as Wooden Plank and Iron ingot in the minecraft ingame crafting guide! Sure this is smash, but we still gotta go by their vocabulary. [[User:MetaKnightX6|MetaKnightX6]] ([[User talk:MetaKnightX6|talk]]) 20:54, August 11, 2021 (EDT)

Also, even if it ends up staying the same with this ‘units’ business, at least change it from units of wood to units of wooden planks, as ‘wood’ on its own doesn’t exist in minecraft, only x logs and x planks exist, and should Steve collect logs it is immediately converted to wood. [[User:MetaKnightX6|MetaKnightX6]] ([[User talk:MetaKnightX6|talk]]) 20:54, August 11, 2021 (EDT)
:Some pedantry, [https://minecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Wood wood] does exist in ''Minecraft''. But on the larger topic, "unit" is a better term because it is more general. Steve mines 1 iron ingot, yet places an iron block for 1/9th the cost in Minecraft, so generalizing to a "unit" is more flexible; same issues exist with his other crafts. In my experience most people refer to whatever log/log-derivative they are using as "wood" unless they are using a specific variant for a build; and even then, they'll likely just say "wood" or "spruce/birch/oak/etc." instead of the full name for brevity. Most people will understand what it means, similar to how ''Smash'' players understand "tech" for the official term "ukemi". --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 21:26, August 11, 2021 (EDT)
::My take on the matter (as a seasoned ''Minecraft'' player) is that we must use some unifying plural noun that fits all of them - there's no saying "woods" or "stones" or "irons," and the admittedly bland and uninspired term "units" is the simplest and most universal term we have. You note that "we still gotta go by their vocabulary" and while most of the time I would agree, using the term "units" lets you say stuff like "units of wood, stone, and iron" as opposed to "planks of wood, pieces of stone, and ingots of iron." Not a huge fan of this rule, but [[SW:OFFICIAL|SmashWiki is not official]], and even the people making this game messed around with terminology - see the Tips menu and the Mr. Sakurai presentation.
::As an aside, it's not really possible to completely equate Steve's abilities in ''Smash'' to the player's in ''Minecraft'' - some key examples being that wooden logs and planks are seemingly equated in ''Smash'', and the number of a material required to make an ''entire set of tools'' varies vastly across the different tiers. Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''Banjo-'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #FF1901">'''Kazooie'''</span>]] Boss. [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 21:51, August 11, 2021 (EDT)

==yonni==
Since users keep adding him in, I'm starting a section for him as well. yonni has had pretty decent results with Steve, however up until Riptide he hasn't really had a real "breakout tournament." Online, prior to his 7th place finish at SWT he saw rather mixed success with the character. Offline, he's had an [https://www.pgstats.com/articles/yonni-tops-seed-performance-ratings-at-riptide average placement of 9th place] at regionals and smaller, which means that Riptide was an outlier compared to the rest of his performance. While it is likely that yonni would continue to perform well in the future, for now I don't think there should be a rush to add a player just because of one outstanding result. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 23:49, September 21, 2021 (EDT)
:I personally oppose Yonnis inclusion at this time. Mostly because I don't think we really have a good idea of how good the character is yet. If he's top tier one single 9th place early in the return of offline meta, may not as significant as it currently seems.  There are a lot of Steve players popping up and so one good result isn't enough for inclusion to me.[[User:Wiifitkid|Wiifitkid]] ([[User talk:Wiifitkid|talk]]) 23:55, September 21, 2021 (EDT)
::There are a lot of good Steve players online and they won't make it in. yonni popping off recently is only a recent thing. We'll just have to wait and see. [[File:Grand Dad.png|23x20px]] [[User:NaughtyPigMario|<span style="color: red;">'''NPM'''</span>]]  [[User talk:NaughtyPigMario|''<span style="color: blue;">Morr!?</span>'']] [[File:NaughtyPigBoi.jpg|23x20px]] 00:16, September 22, 2021 (EDT)

It's been about a month, and while yonni has yet to reach a result as impressive as 9th place at Riptide, he's still done rather well, with 17th at {{Trn|Glitch 8.5 - Konami Code}}, 25th at {{Trn|Super Smash Con: Fall Fest}}, and 33rd at {{Trn|Low Tide City 2021}} and garnered wins over players such as {{Sm|Suarez}}, {{Sm|Epic_Gabriel}}, and {{Sm|Grayson}}. I'm a lot more inclined to add yonni at this point since he's clearly shown some consistency. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 21:59, October 24, 2021 (EDT)

== DDee and Onin ==

Opening the discussion to add both of these players into the "Most historically significant players" section. DDee has shown consistent usage of Steve in every run he has in tournament, garnering a large amount of notable wins with the character and recently pushing his first major to take 5th at Momocon 2022. He lacks attendance at majors but I feel this shouldn't be an issue due to his strong regionals. He is also the current #1 in Georgia and although likely to go back down to 2 or 3 in the next PR. Onin is a odd case but he still has a pretty solid lineup of major runs (25th at LMBM, 33rd at Glitch Infinite, and 49th at Riptide) and a plentiful amount of wins, notably recently peaking as Combo Breaker with a 1st. He also takes #3 on the recent Michigan PR. I feel that both of these players have solid arguments to be added to this slot, more so DDee due to repeated wins at other tournaments more than one. [[User:Swidd|Swidd]] ([[User talk:Swidd|talk]]) 22:53, June 10, 2022 (EDT)
:Late to this, sorry was very busy. DDee, while being a very good player, hasn't had that many results at a national level, and in my opinion, a very important distinction between being "historically significant" versus being a "hidden boss" is performance at a national level. Now, consistently solid regional results certainly helps his case, but a lot of DDee's regional results have been recent. I'd say wait for DDee, especially since recency bias can certainly cloud opinions on the player, as we don't know how he'd perform in the future. As for Onin, his national results certainly lack what Jake, yonni, acola, and even DDee have, so I'd wait on him as well. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 22:32, June 16, 2022 (EDT)
::I've been thinking, DDee is likely going to be ranked on this iteration of the PGR, for North America at least. If he gets ranked, I wouldn't be opposed to adding him. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 15:10, July 3, 2022 (EDT)
:::PGR v3 30-11 just released and DDee is on it, 18th even https://www.twitter.com/pgstats/status/1554906441152188418, should def be added now [[User:Luigi86101|Luigi86101]] ([[User talk:Luigi86101|talk]]) 15:15, August 3, 2022 (EDT)

At this point I'm for adding both. I think our cutoff for consisteration for Steve's is roughly being able to top 8 majors. [[User:Wiifitkid|Wiifitkid]] ([[User talk:Wiifitkid|talk]]) 10:25, July 4, 2022 (EDT)

Quick update on this, Onin has been added since he won a major. DDee I was going to add but decided to put him off for now because he lacks a lot of results and only has one tournament above regional level, plus his plans on potentially solo-maining PT meaning his Steve results would be lost in time compared to the other Steve players. I think most people would be on board with DDee if he continues to play Steve and see another top 8 at a major (DreamHack?). [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 21:56, July 5, 2022 (EDT)

any reason ddee hasn't been added yet? i mean i get that he only really had one major performance but he's literally pgr, top 20 even [[User:Luigi86101|Luigi86101]] ([[User talk:Luigi86101|talk]]) 19:53, November 14, 2022 (EST)
:Only one major, he's been going a lot of PT and the PGRs were regional. Lots of PGR v3 players aren't on the lists. [[User:Wiifitkid|Wiifitkid]] ([[User talk:Wiifitkid|talk]]) 19:55, November 14, 2022 (EST)
:: PGRs were regional sure but he was top 20, and even in orionrank which was international he was top 50, anyway after his performance at dreamhsck atlanta where he beat esam and placed 9th i still dont see any reason now to keep him off the list [[User:Luigi86101|Luigi86101]] ([[User talk:Luigi86101|talk]]) 01:30, November 21, 2022 (EST)

== Split Proposal ==

Seems there's no on-wiki discussion about this yet, so let's start this off.

I '''support this so long as Brawl {{SSBB|Meta Knight}} gets similar treatment'''. Both are significant events in ''Smash'' history, being the only singles characters to see bans, and should absolutely get the coverage such actions warrant. One could argue Smash 4 {{SSB4|Bayonetta}} and some Doubles combinations (eg. Double Cloud in S4, I think 64 has some too?) as well, though Bayonetta didn't actually see prevalent bans. Doubles combinations could possibly be a single article or something? 

Let's say this proposal accounts for Brawl Meta Knight as well, considering it was a far wider-reaching ban and was even in the Guiness Book of Records, I think?? I'll plop the proposal tag on the page after this is up, anyway. 

Naturally, such pages should be on the "significant events" template as well. -[[File:PlagueSigImage.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #4952eb;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #4952eb;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:PlagueSigImage.png|20px]] 20:22, October 30, 2023 (EDT)

:'''Support''' for making articles about both Meta Knight's and Steve's bans. '''[[User:Voqéo|<span style="background:#000; color:white; padding:2px 6px;font-size:12px;">Voqéo</span>]][[User talk:Voqéo|<span style="background:#e70012; color:white; padding:2px 4px;font-size:12px;">T</span>]]''' 11:18, October 31, 2023 (EDT)
:'''Support''' as the original proposer. I don't mind Meta Knight getting one either. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 13:02, October 31, 2023 (EDT)
:'''Support''' on both. [[User:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:#850FFA; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Señor'''</span> <span style="color:#850FFA;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px green">'''Mexicano'''</span>]] ''[[User talk:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:lightpurple;text-shadow:0px 0px 2px lightgreen">(talk)</span>]]'' 13:06, October 31, 2023 (EDT)
:'''Support'''. [[File:ThegameandwatchIcon2.png|20px]] [[User:Thegameandwatch|<span style=" color: Green;">'''Thegameandwatch'''</span>]] [[File:Thegameandwatch signature icon.png|20px]] [[User talk:Thegameandwatch|''<span style="color: blue;">The Nerd </span>'']] 16:14, January 26, 2024 (EST)
:'''Support''' for making articles about both. However I do not think that Smash 4 Doubles Cloud/Bayonetta need their own articles - there was never really a push to ban Bayo and Cloud just went without much fuss at a time where the game was already "dead". [[User:Pumpernickelpeter47|Pumpernickelpeter47]] ([[User talk:Pumpernickelpeter47|talk]]) 10:30, March 22, 2024 (EDT)
:'''Support''' per proposal. Title could be something along the lines of "Discussions of character bans" as a full character ban is a somewhat uncommon occurence. [[User:ZeusDeeGoose|ZeusDeeGoose]] ([[User talk:ZeusDeeGoose|talk]]) 13:12, August 12, 2024 (EDT)

==Expanding MHSP to 15==
Currently Steve stands at its limit of 10 players, and with the release of the [[LumiRank 2024.1|most recent ranking]], we are choosing to add one more who had reached the top 30 ({{Sm|Carmelo}}). While at the moment there are discussions to replace {{Sm|Quandale Dinglelingleton}} with Carmelo, the point remains that we will still be at the limit, and with many other potential Steve players on the come-up, we are likely going to have to go over the current limit. As such, I am proposing that we raise Steve's threshold to 15 for the following reasons:
*Steve is the most popular ''Ultimate'' character in competitive play. He had been ranked 1st by OrionRank/LumiRank in terms of representation since July-December 2022, and in the current season there are going to be 6 Steve players ranked top 50, which is not including Miya's secondary Steve. 
*Currently, there are 10 players who easily are historically significant: 3 have won majors with Steve (acola, Onin, Miya); 6 have ranked well in the top 50 with Steve (Carmelo, crepe salee, Jake, Syrup, Yamanaction, yonni); and DDee, while never being formally ranked, has been a top 20-level player for quite some time now. In addition, Quandale Dinglelingleton had ranked in the top 100 and has wins over several top players such as Light (Collision 2023), Zackray (Ludwig Smash Invitational), and Tweek (Fusion 100), and placements such as 9th at SSC 2022 and 13th at Collision 2023. Finally, there are a slew of other up-and-coming Steve players, including Many, Raki, and 33Peranbox, who are all likely going to be ranked top 100 sooner or later, or at least an HM. Either way, there will be a lot of Steve players up for contention.

To sum it up, the section is currently at 10 players, with one more that will be historically significant being discussed right now. As such, the threshold should be increased to 15. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 18:30, August 6, 2024 (EDT)
:'''Support''' - We are at that point where we we will soon run out of spots, even if we limit it to top 50 players. I believe Steve, being not only regarded as the best character in the game, but also the most represented character at top level, warrants expansion to 15. [[User:Wiifitkid|Wiifitkid]] ([[User talk:Wiifitkid|talk]]) 16:35, August 13, 2024 (EDT)
:'''Support''' --[[User:Meester Tweester|Meester Tweester]] ([[User talk:Meester Tweester|talk]]) 02:54, September 11, 2024 (EDT)
:'''Support''': If a character is prevalent in tournament results to such a point, and all of those players have left a lasting, notable impact within the meta, then it should be accounted for. Nothing more to say. --[[User:Beep|<font color="Black">'''Beep'''</font>]] [[User talk:Beep|<font color="Black">'''(talk)'''</font>]] 01:10, December 1, 2024 (EST)
:'''Support''' — like come on 😭😭😭😭😭 [[User:Taco Bell|Taco Bell]] ([[User talk:Taco Bell|talk]]) 01:10, January 4, 2025 (EST)
:'''Support'''. Not much to say about this it's pretty blatantly obvious. [[File:Grand Dad.png|23x20px]] [[User:NaughtyPigMario|<span style="color: red;">'''NPM'''</span>]]  [[User talk:NaughtyPigMario|''<span style="color: blue;">Morr!?</span>'']] [[File:NaughtyPigBoi.jpg|23x20px]] 02:04, January 5, 2025 (EST)
:'''Support''' - The best character in the game, with multiple reps in the top 50 definitely deserves an expansion for notable players. [[User:CanadianCrayon|CanadianCrayon]] ([[User talk:CanadianCrayon|talk]]) 13:16, January 6, 2025 (EST)

:'''Oppose'''. I argued it extensively on [https://discord.com/channels/186707873789640705/186708155873492993/1326676780764893214 on the wiki's Discord server], but in brief on why the limit shouldn't be increased:

:*Increased limits are for when a character has over 10 players that you absolutely cannot tell the story of the character's meta history without, not just for having more than 10 players that were ranked pretty high at some point.

:*Recency bias has to be kept in checked; any player included in a MHSP section should be assured to very likely standout historically even if they completely fall off or never play the character again. And assumptions should not be made that the player will continue to play at or better than the level they currently do.

:*The standards for each character's MHSP is based on how meta prominent the character is, and as the #1 character by a clear results margin, the standards for Steve should be substantially higher than any other Ultimate character. So just getting ranked top 50 once and getting a few good major results with Steve does not carry the same weight it would for doing the same with any other character.

:As I see it, Steve fails these criteria, and there's only about a half dozen players currently listed that I'm fairly confident will stand the test of time as they stand now, while a large portion of the other half dozenish on the list or being proposed could very easily end up nothing more than a footnote in Steve's meta history. Just being ranked top 50 a single half year ranking or two shouldn't be treated as an automatic qualifier, as that feat has been significantly diluted by eight Steve players doing that over just the past year alone (ten if you count Miya's and Raikkusu's secondary Steves). If we get say five more or so Steves that get barely ranked top 50 over the next two LumiRanks, while the previous top 50 Steves stagnate or fall off, are we going to start pushing to expand the limit to 20, something that has only been done for [[Fox (SSBM)#Most historically significant players|the most competitively famous and popular Smash character of all time with over 20 years of history]]? I'll also bring up Smash 4 Bayonetta, you look at her [[Bayonetta_(SSB4)#Most_historically_significant_players|MHSP section]], and it it contains the following:

:*Five players that were top 10 at some point ({{Sm|Salem}}, {{Sm|CaptainZack}}, {{Sm|MKLeo}}, {{Sm|Tweek}}, and {{Sm|Mistake}}), and a sixth that won an [[Tournament:EVO 2018|Evo]] ({{Sm|Lima}}).

:*Nine that were top 25 at some point ({{Sm|9B}}, {{Sm|Abadango}}, and {{Sm|Pink Fresh}}, in addition to the previous six).

:*Two more that were on the all-time [[PGR 100]] in addition to the previous nine ({{Sm|ikep}} and {{Sm|Tyroy}}), and a third that would be if they didn't attempt vehicular homicide ({{Sm|JK}}).

:The players as a collective in Steve's MHSP just don't compare to the caliber of players that are in Bayo's MHSP section, and it's the same story if you compare to any of the other characters with an expanded MHSP section (other than Smash 4 Cloud, who I'm going to propose decreasing the limit to after looking it over in this). So until Steve truly gets more than a half dozen top level players and have players that prove to have more than a year of lasting power, I don't see a compelling reason to expand the limit and dilute the quality of players listed. As for future proofing, if that is a concern, i think it's even better to wait and see how the character's meta continues to develop, because it could be even more likely that it proves better to raise the standards and/or the character and the new rising players fall off (as seen with previous proposed candidates for increased limits that people once adamantly pushed for here, such as Ultimate Wolf, Palutena, and Rob). <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 21:23, January 8, 2025 (EST)

:'''Oppose''' for the reasons stated by Omega Tyrant. I do think Carmelo should be on here and DDog and yonni should be at the front for potential removal depending on what up-and-coming Steve mains are able to show top-level results for significant periods of time, rather than being flashes in the pan. [[User:Antimony|Antimony]] ([[User talk:Antimony|talk]]) 22:34, January 8, 2025 (EST)
:Following the discussion on Discord, I am leaning more towards the '''opposing''' side. Though I personally would still rather do some future-proofing, I agree that it is too early to really determine whether Steve would reach the level of dominance that Bayonetta had in the entirety of ''Smash 4'' (who had 11 players ranked in the PGR 100), especially since several Steve players in the MHSP list or proposed have only been top 50 for one or two seasons, or in the case of DDog not at all. Bayonetta herself also just ''barely'' had enough to go over her 10-player limit, so what makes Steve, who is still in a evolving metagame that features a rather diverse representation compared to other games, any better or even equal in argument to having the same limit as Bayonetta? In addition, with how things are trending, it may also be possible for more than 15 Steve players ranked in the top 50, or at least considered for the MHSP, and that is a limit that I will not support unless Steve receives representation on-par with Melee Fox... which no other character ever will. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 16:43, January 12, 2025 (EST)
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