Editing Talk:Steve

=="Genderless"==
Is it really accurate to say Steve is genderless? I think "sexless" would be more accurate, if at all - I say that since 1. Notch is no longer involved with Minecraft, and Alex (the first female skin) was introduced not that long after he left; and 2. Notch is a known transphobe so it's unlikely he'd make the distinction between sex and gender, especially not in 2012. --[[User:BubzieBobkat|What could possibly go wrong? - BubzieBobkat]] ([[User talk:BubzieBobkat|talk]]) 01:53, October 2, 2020 (EDT)
:I agree with both of these statements, but to my knowledge it's still the latest official word that ''Minecraft'' is "genderless" rather than "sexless", and the way he phrases it implies it lacks both sex and gender (animals have male and female aspects and any of one species can breed with any other). It's weird, considering he wrote in the blog post that he wishes he had used the singular "they" rather than "he" to describe Steve, but he for some reason holds totally opposing ideals now. It's also worth keeping in mind that Alex isn't referred to as female just as Steve isn't referred to as male (though I've noticed promo material uses "he" and "she" anyway, so maybe sexless ''would'' be more accurate?). I think the overall idea is that sex and gender are non-issues in the world of ''Minecraft'' so calling it "sexless" or "genderless" doesn't really matter one way or the other. ~ [[User:Serena Strawberry|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Serena Strawberry'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Serena Strawberry|talk]]) 02:40, October 2, 2020 (EDT)
::Can you link to promo material calling Steve a "he" and Alex a "she"? If those were after Notch made those comments about Steve being genderless, then they would probably be above those due to being more recent. [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 15:17, October 2, 2020 (EDT)
:::[https://twitter.com/Minecraft/status/1213898465828392960 Here's an example] of Steve being referred to as "he" in 2020. But it doesn't necessarily invalidate the original claim, as the same comment about ''Minecraft'' being genderless uses "he" to describe Steve. ~ [[User:Serena Strawberry|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Serena Strawberry'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Serena Strawberry|talk]]) 15:59, October 2, 2020 (EDT)
::::The genderless article uses "he" in quotes, clearly indicating that they are intentionally using the wrong pronoun.
::::Smells like a retcon to me. [[User:TheNuttyOne|TheNuttyOne]] 16:08, October 2, 2020 (EDT)
:::::I didn't really interpret it like that, but I guess either way we'll see which pronouns to use by the Mr. Sakurai Presents about it; I wouldn't be surprised if they did use "he" and "she". (Though in that case it'd just be changing "genderless" to "sexless", as Bubzie suggested.) ~ [[User:Serena Strawberry|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Serena Strawberry'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Serena Strawberry|talk]]) 16:15, October 2, 2020 (EDT)
::::::An official tweet more recent than whenever Notch called Steve genderless is enough for me to say that we should call Steve a he, lest this becomes another [https://www.thestar.com/entertainment/2017/03/01/garfields-gender-male-none-sparks-wikipedia-edit-war.html Garfield Wikipedia fiasco]. Notch doesn't work for Mojang anymore, and he certainly holds different views now, and if Sakurai calls Steve a he, then that will be the final nail in the coffin. If the infobox calls Steve sexless, that's fine, but the rest of any mention of Steve should call refer to Steve using male pronouns in my opinion. [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 22:55, October 2, 2020 (EDT)

Since the broadcast used "he" and "she" as predicted, I guess this topic comes back around again. Should we keep "genderless" on the page at all? I still think so, anyway, but it's a bit hard to explain what "genderless" or "sexless" means in a case where they're still referred to with gendered pronouns. ~ [[User:Serena Strawberry|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Serena Strawberry'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Serena Strawberry|talk]]) 11:24, October 3, 2020 (EDT)
:Don't even mention it in the infobox. This is becoming another Garfield Wikipedia fiasco. One quote from a guy who doesn't work for Mojang anymore and clearly holds different views now does not stand up to recent official tweets calling Steve a he, and even the Sakurai video calling Steve a he. The genderless idea likely was not meant to be taken literally, and more as a metaphor to not call Minecraft a boy's game. [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 11:28, October 3, 2020 (EDT)
::Mind you, the "guy who doesn't work at Mojang anymore" is the guy who ''made'' Steve. I get the "Garfield Wikipedia fiasco" reference, and I hate Notch as much as the next reasonable person, but it's an important part of ''Minecraft''{{'}}s design—even after he left—that everything in ''Minecraft'' is supposed to be genderless. Not just metaphorically, but in terms of biology as well, such as with animals. ~ [[User:Serena Strawberry|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Serena Strawberry'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Serena Strawberry|talk]]) 11:35, October 3, 2020 (EDT)
==Steve and Alex on the same page==
Should Alex really be grouped with Steve? Zombie and Enderman have separate pages as well as other alternate characters like Alph and the Koopalings. I think Alex should have her own page. [[User:Diddy Kongstar|Diddy Kongstar]] ([[User talk:Diddy Kongstar|talk]]) 12:41, October 2, 2020 (EDT)
*My nitpicky side agrees, but in all honesty Alex doesn't really have a history beyond "there's not enough girls in this game" "we added a girl" "thank you" so it's probably best to lump her in with Steve. --[[User:BubzieBobkat|What could possibly go wrong? - BubzieBobkat]] ([[User talk:BubzieBobkat|talk]]) 14:01, October 2, 2020 (EDT)
::Alex is more in line with Leaf or female Byleth (who also has a different name in Japanese) than Alph or the Koopalings. She is a female variant of Steve; she was just given the name Alex. [[User:TheNuttyOne|TheNuttyOne]] 15:35, October 2, 2020 (EDT)
:::Agreed on this. ~ [[User:Serena Strawberry|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Serena Strawberry'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Serena Strawberry|talk]]) 15:59, October 2, 2020 (EDT)
While Steve and Alex definitely belong on the same page, I think the page should be renamed to "Steve & Alex" or "Steve/Alex". Unlike with Red and Leaf, who share a page under the same title, Steve and Alex are just referred to as their names in-game. Leaving Alex out of a page title feels a little unfair. Personally, I'm leaning towards to "Steve/Alex" option, because it is how they are referred to as on the official website. [[User:Xm0c|Xm0c]] ([[User talk:Xm0c|talk]]) 18:28, October 2, 2020 (EDT)
:This I can also see the case for, as Steve and Alex are both given equal priority, but at the same time, it would make things a bit more clunky compared to "Steve" being simple and consistent, and it's likely that in-game text will default to just "Steve" as well. I could also make a case for changing the article name to merely "Player (Minecraft)", matching the ''Minecraft'' wiki, but that'd probably be even more confusing. ~ [[User:Serena Strawberry|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Serena Strawberry'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Serena Strawberry|talk]]) 18:40, October 2, 2020 (EDT)
::While "Player (Minecraft)" would make sense, every fighter uses either their in-game name, or in cases like [[Fox McCloud]], their full name referenced in the game. I don't think having the dash in the title would be a huge problem, especially because there is precedent with [[Burning Knuckle / Crack Shoot]]. [[User:Xm0c|Xm0c]] ([[User talk:Xm0c|talk]]) 19:25, October 2, 2020 (EDT)
:::"Player (Minecraft)" ''would'' make sense, if they weren't called "Steve" and "Alex" in-game. The same goes for the protagonists from [[Protagonist (Persona 3)|''Persona 3'']] and [[Protagonist (Persona 4)|''Persona 4'']], but for the opposite reason; they are not called Makoto Yuki and Yu Narukami in ''Smash'', so we use the generic term. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: black;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: orange">'''the Spooky Rurouni'''</span>]] 19:33, October 2, 2020 (EDT)
I'm thinking Steve/Alex for the character page but Steve SSBU for the fighter page.  If the main website considers Alex important enough to mention in the title then I think we should too. [[User:Guybrush20X6|Guybrush20X6]] ([[User talk:Guybrush20X6|talk]]) 19:58, October 2, 2020 (EDT)
:I could understand the comparison with Leaf and Female Byleth in Japan, but ''Smash'' just uses Pokémon Trainer for both Red and Leaf and Byleth has the same name in English regardless of gender. Steve and Alex are different cases from these as they have different names in all regions and in ''Smash''. [[User:Diddy Kongstar|Diddy Kongstar]] ([[User talk:Diddy Kongstar|talk]]) 22:39, October 2, 2020 (EDT)
::I think we should split Steve and Alex. Alex can be treated like [[Alph]] in this case and it will be consistent with [[Zombie]] and [[Enderman]]. [[Pokémon Trainer|Leaf]] and female [[Byleth]] can remain on their male counterpart's pages to avoid headaches on what to title them. [[Kazooie]] is separate from [[Banjo]] and [[Luma]] is separate from [[Rosalina]]. But Nana and Popo were always combined as [[Ice Climbers]]. "Steve/Alex" would make the wiki software treat it as a subpage of Steve, and "Steve & Alex" would imply a fighter duo and not an alternate costume. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 02:40, October 3, 2020 (EDT)

With the broadcast over, I think I agree that the page should be changed to "Steve & Alex", since that's the official terminology used and Sakurai essentially treats them as an interchangeable duo in all promotional material outside the game itself. ~ [[User:Serena Strawberry|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Serena Strawberry'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Serena Strawberry|talk]]) 11:24, October 3, 2020 (EDT)

'''Strongly oppose move'''. Steve is the default and the multi-name page titles are awful and clunky. It's one thing when we have no choice for special moves, but in this case, there is absolutely zero reason to overcomplicate this and make it look ugly in the process. They're one character. Steve is the default, Alex is the female version. [[User:TheNuttyOne|TheNuttyOne]] 17:03, October 3, 2020 (EDT)

:Let's just split Alex into her own page. [[Zombie]] and [[Enderman]] have their own pages. [[Alph]] is separate from [[Captain Olimar]]. I think the split would be the best way to handle the name debate. Alternate gender counterparts should only share a general page with their default versions if they share the same Fighter name in the English version. If an alt has a different name, then they get their own pages. And if we can't get enough info on Alex to write her page, then I'm with Nutty on the opposed move. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 18:25, October 9, 2020 (EDT)
::I disagree on this because Alex and Steve are pretty fundamentally just different versions of the same character, like Pokémon Trainer, rather than unique individuals like Olimar and Alph. The different name shouldn't matter, and there clearly wouldn't be enough info to distinguish her from Steve. ~ [[User:Serena Strawberry|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Serena Strawberry'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Serena Strawberry|talk]]) 18:30, October 9, 2020 (EDT)
:::''Minecraft'' promotional material constantly depicts the two as completely separate characters. But mechanically in-game, Steve and Alex are no more different from each other than a cow between two texture packs. As far as I'm concerned, this argument could be taken either way, so I propose the page be retitled '''Steve / Alex'''. Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''Banjo-'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #FF1901">'''Kazooie'''</span>]] Boss. [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 16:39, October 10, 2020 (EDT)
:::: I also lean towards a "Steve & Alex" or "Steve / Alex" rename, but I know it's been rejected before. Still, I feel like it more accurately depicts how the characters are featured in marketing; they're basically the same character, but they're treated as a pair rather than one being lesser than the other. ~ [[User:Serena Strawberry|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Serena Strawberry'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Serena Strawberry|talk]]) 17:22, October 10, 2020 (EDT)
:::: We can't just have Alex not show up on a page title. They appear on the Website as Steve / Alex and as Steve and Alex. If the game's materials themselves make the point of having Alex on equal billing then I feel the same case should be made here. I vote for Steve & Alex as a slash would mess up Wiki formatting. [[User:Guybrush20X6|Guybrush20X6]] ([[User talk:Guybrush20X6|talk]]) 19:03, October 10, 2020 (EDT)
::::: <s>Curious, how would the name '''Steve / Alex''' screw over the wiki formatting? What's the difference between that and, the first example that comes to my head, [[Egg Firing / Breegull Blaster]]? It seems to work fine for that. Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''Banjo-'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #FF1901">'''Kazooie'''</span>]] Boss. [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 22:54, October 10, 2020 (EDT)</s>
::::: How dumb could I possibly be? Disregard my previous comments, and fully '''support''' move to '''Steve & Alex'''. Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''Banjo-'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #FF1901">'''Kazooie'''</span>]] Boss. [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 23:07, October 10, 2020 (EDT)

I seriously oppose the / or & titles. I very much dislike them on the moveset pages (to the point of I'm tempted to propose making a rule against them) and would vehemently discourage using them here either. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 23:16, October 10, 2020 (EDT)
:Miles, while I agree with you that this page should not be renamed, it is kind of necessary for it to be there with moves. Unlike characters, the multi-move specials don't have one more prominent than the other, and one obviously has to be stated first, so I would suggest not giving in to your temptation. [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 01:04, October 12, 2020 (EDT)
:Wouldn't that mean that in the case of moves, the second or third part of the move would be on a different page entirely?

:As for Alex, I ''could'' see a separate page only detailing the instances she's in. I can also see changing the page to include both or changing it to be more neutral like on the Minecraft Wiki. They use the term "Player", as that's what they both are, and tend to use "Steve" and "Alex" when referring to the designs and artwork. In fact, I can see us changing Joker's character page to "Protagonist (Persona 5)" to be more in-line with the other protagonist and the Persona Wiki. Their Fighter pages would stay Steve and Joker while their character pages would be "Player (Minecraft)" and "Protagonist (Persona 5)". We could also have each Dragon Quest Hero separated by "Hero (Dragon Quest #)". As for Popo & Nana, unlike Banjo & Kazooie, I can't see them being separated in their character page unless they were to get more individual development in a future Ice Climbers game. Perhaps this should be looked into further as there is more than one Fighter that this can apply to? [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 09:30, October 11, 2020 (EDT)
::Some good points have been brought up here. I think '''Player (Minecraft)''' makes the most sense given everything I know about the situation. I really can't think of any problem with this name, or any other option that makes any more sense at this point, so that should be my final '''support'''. Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''Banjo-'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #FF1901">'''Kazooie'''</span>]] Boss. [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 11:23, October 11, 2020 (EDT)
:::<s>'''Support''', because it makes the most sense.</s> [[File:ThegameandwatchIcon2.png|20px]] [[User:Thegameandwatch|<span style=" color: red;">'''Thegameandwatch'''</span>]] [[File:ThegameandwatchIcon3.png|20px]] [[User talk:Thegameandwatch|''<span style="color: cyan;">The Nerd </span>'']] 11:31, October 11, 2020 (EDT)
::::Wait, support in changing the character page to "Steve & Alex" or to "Player (Minecraft)"? [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 12:13, October 11, 2020 (EDT)
::::: <s>'''Player (Minecraft)''' but keeping it the same is the more likely change.</s> [[File:ThegameandwatchIcon2.png|20px]] [[User:Thegameandwatch|<span style=" color: red;">'''Thegameandwatch'''</span>]] [[File:ThegameandwatchIcon3.png|20px]] [[User talk:Thegameandwatch|''<span style="color: cyan;">The Nerd </span>'']] 12:24, October 11, 2020 (EDT)
::::::If "Player (Minecraft)" does end up being agreed upon for Steve's character page, then I think the character pages for Joker and Hero should be discussed as well. If not to be more aligned with their games' canon. The Fighter pages would stay Steve, Joker, and Hero regardless. [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 12:29, October 11, 2020 (EDT)

"Player (Minecraft)" is absolutely, fully out of the question. There is no reason whatsoever to have this page not include "Steve" in its title. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 12:33, October 11, 2020 (EDT)
:Yeah, I don't like Player (Minecraft) as well since the character in ''Smash'' is specifically named Steve/Alex, while in Minecraft the character technically doesn't have a name because it represents the player. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 12:35, October 11, 2020 (EDT)
::Why is that a bad thing? It wouldn't affect the naming of the "Steve (SSBU)" page to have the character page name changed. Regardless if it was "Player (Minecraft)" or "Steve & Alex". [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 13:10, October 11, 2020 (EDT)
:::In Minecraft, you don't play as "Steve" or "Alex". You play as the character that the skin represents, hence why Minecraft's wiki goes with "Player." In Smash, you actually play as "Steve" and "Alex" and you can't change those skins outside of alternate costumes, so changing this to "Player (Minecraft)" doesn't sound right to me. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 15:06, October 11, 2020 (EDT)

I agree that if nothing else we should keep "Steve" in the page name to match "Steve (SSBU)", and I oppose "Player (Minecraft)". We shouldn't name the character pages too differently from the corresponding fighter pages. ~ [[User:Serena Strawberry|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Serena Strawberry'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Serena Strawberry|talk]]) 15:09, October 11, 2020 (EDT)
:I still don't understand why that would be too much of a problem, especially considering that "Player", "Protagonist", and Hero" are the canon names of the Minecraft, Persona, and Hero protagonist. I know the Smash Wiki isn't "official", but it ''would'' solve the whole "Steve / Alex" problem. But oh well. [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 15:29, October 11, 2020 (EDT)

==Steve skin used==
This isn't a very big deal but anyway, should the image of Steve used here be of his former skin only used in promotional artwork and Smash model, or his current beardless skin used as of Java Edition Classic which replaced it only a few months afterward in 2009? Personally I'm leaning towards his current skin as it's a better representation of the character from Minecraft itself, but I could also understand wanting to showcase the origins of the skin used in Smash. [[User:RoadSmasher420|RoadSmasher420]] ([[User talk:RoadSmasher420|talk]]) 03:50, October 3, 2020 (EDT)
:<s>This isn't something up for debate. We ALWAYS use imagery shown in Smash only, including promotional material. We'll use the skin you suggested if, and only if, it changes to that in the game.</s> [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|🦊'''Furry Nation'''🐺]]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 04:31, October 3, 2020 (EDT)
:Okay, disregard my last message. What I said is true for the fighter pages, but I overlooked the fact that your enquiry is about the character themself. And the answer is, probably yes. If you can find an image, feel free to upload it and add it. [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|🦊'''Furry Nation'''🐺]]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 04:35, October 3, 2020 (EDT)
::The intention of the profile art on the character page is to show the origin of the design used in Smash. If we use Sheik's Twilight Princess concept art, we should use Steve's promotion-exclusive bearded form. [[User:TheNuttyOne|TheNuttyOne]] 15:26, October 3, 2020 (EDT)
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