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| ::::::An official tweet more recent than whenever Notch called Steve genderless is enough for me to say that we should call Steve a he, lest this becomes another [https://www.thestar.com/entertainment/2017/03/01/garfields-gender-male-none-sparks-wikipedia-edit-war.html Garfield Wikipedia fiasco]. Notch doesn't work for Mojang anymore, and he certainly holds different views now, and if Sakurai calls Steve a he, then that will be the final nail in the coffin. If the infobox calls Steve sexless, that's fine, but the rest of any mention of Steve should call refer to Steve using male pronouns in my opinion. [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 22:55, October 2, 2020 (EDT) | | ::::::An official tweet more recent than whenever Notch called Steve genderless is enough for me to say that we should call Steve a he, lest this becomes another [https://www.thestar.com/entertainment/2017/03/01/garfields-gender-male-none-sparks-wikipedia-edit-war.html Garfield Wikipedia fiasco]. Notch doesn't work for Mojang anymore, and he certainly holds different views now, and if Sakurai calls Steve a he, then that will be the final nail in the coffin. If the infobox calls Steve sexless, that's fine, but the rest of any mention of Steve should call refer to Steve using male pronouns in my opinion. [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 22:55, October 2, 2020 (EDT) |
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| Since the broadcast used "he" and "she" as predicted, I guess this topic comes back around again. Should we keep "genderless" on the page at all? I still think so, anyway, but it's a bit hard to explain what "genderless" or "sexless" means in a case where they're still referred to with gendered pronouns. ~ [[User:Serena Strawberry|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Serena Strawberry'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Serena Strawberry|talk]]) 11:24, October 3, 2020 (EDT)
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| :Don't even mention it in the infobox. This is becoming another Garfield Wikipedia fiasco. One quote from a guy who doesn't work for Mojang anymore and clearly holds different views now does not stand up to recent official tweets calling Steve a he, and even the Sakurai video calling Steve a he. The genderless idea likely was not meant to be taken literally, and more as a metaphor to not call Minecraft a boy's game. [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 11:28, October 3, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::Mind you, the "guy who doesn't work at Mojang anymore" is the guy who ''made'' Steve. I get the "Garfield Wikipedia fiasco" reference, and I hate Notch as much as the next reasonable person, but it's an important part of ''Minecraft''{{'}}s design—even after he left—that everything in ''Minecraft'' is supposed to be genderless. Not just metaphorically, but in terms of biology as well, such as with animals. ~ [[User:Serena Strawberry|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Serena Strawberry'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Serena Strawberry|talk]]) 11:35, October 3, 2020 (EDT)
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| ==Steve and Alex on the same page== | | ==Steve and Alex on the same page== |
| Should Alex really be grouped with Steve? Zombie and Enderman have separate pages as well as other alternate characters like Alph and the Koopalings. I think Alex should have her own page. [[User:Diddy Kongstar|Diddy Kongstar]] ([[User talk:Diddy Kongstar|talk]]) 12:41, October 2, 2020 (EDT) | | Should Alex really be grouped with Steve? Zombie and Enderman have separate pages as well as other alternate characters like Alph and the Koopalings. I think Alex should have her own page. [[User:Diddy Kongstar|Diddy Kongstar]] ([[User talk:Diddy Kongstar|talk]]) 12:41, October 2, 2020 (EDT) |
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| ::I think we should split Steve and Alex. Alex can be treated like [[Alph]] in this case and it will be consistent with [[Zombie]] and [[Enderman]]. [[Pokémon Trainer|Leaf]] and female [[Byleth]] can remain on their male counterpart's pages to avoid headaches on what to title them. [[Kazooie]] is separate from [[Banjo]] and [[Luma]] is separate from [[Rosalina]]. But Nana and Popo were always combined as [[Ice Climbers]]. "Steve/Alex" would make the wiki software treat it as a subpage of Steve, and "Steve & Alex" would imply a fighter duo and not an alternate costume. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 02:40, October 3, 2020 (EDT) | | ::I think we should split Steve and Alex. Alex can be treated like [[Alph]] in this case and it will be consistent with [[Zombie]] and [[Enderman]]. [[Pokémon Trainer|Leaf]] and female [[Byleth]] can remain on their male counterpart's pages to avoid headaches on what to title them. [[Kazooie]] is separate from [[Banjo]] and [[Luma]] is separate from [[Rosalina]]. But Nana and Popo were always combined as [[Ice Climbers]]. "Steve/Alex" would make the wiki software treat it as a subpage of Steve, and "Steve & Alex" would imply a fighter duo and not an alternate costume. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 02:40, October 3, 2020 (EDT) |
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| With the broadcast over, I think I agree that the page should be changed to "Steve & Alex", since that's the official terminology used and Sakurai essentially treats them as an interchangeable duo in all promotional material outside the game itself. ~ [[User:Serena Strawberry|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Serena Strawberry'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Serena Strawberry|talk]]) 11:24, October 3, 2020 (EDT)
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| '''Strongly oppose move'''. Steve is the default and the multi-name page titles are awful and clunky. It's one thing when we have no choice for special moves, but in this case, there is absolutely zero reason to overcomplicate this and make it look ugly in the process. They're one character. Steve is the default, Alex is the female version. [[User:TheNuttyOne|TheNuttyOne]] 17:03, October 3, 2020 (EDT)
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| :Let's just split Alex into her own page. [[Zombie]] and [[Enderman]] have their own pages. [[Alph]] is separate from [[Captain Olimar]]. I think the split would be the best way to handle the name debate. Alternate gender counterparts should only share a general page with their default versions if they share the same Fighter name in the English version. If an alt has a different name, then they get their own pages. And if we can't get enough info on Alex to write her page, then I'm with Nutty on the opposed move. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 18:25, October 9, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::I disagree on this because Alex and Steve are pretty fundamentally just different versions of the same character, like Pokémon Trainer, rather than unique individuals like Olimar and Alph. The different name shouldn't matter, and there clearly wouldn't be enough info to distinguish her from Steve. ~ [[User:Serena Strawberry|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Serena Strawberry'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Serena Strawberry|talk]]) 18:30, October 9, 2020 (EDT)
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| :::<s>''Minecraft'' promotional material constantly depicts the two as completely separate characters. But mechanically in-game, Steve and Alex are no more different from each other than a cow between two texture packs. As far as I'm concerned, this argument could be taken either way, so I propose the page be retitled '''Steve / Alex'''. Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''Banjo-'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #FF1901">'''Kazooie'''</span>]] Boss. [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 16:39, October 10, 2020 (EDT)</s>
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| :::: I also lean towards a "Steve & Alex" or "Steve / Alex" rename, but I know it's been rejected before. Still, I feel like it more accurately depicts how the characters are featured in marketing; they're basically the same character, but they're treated as a pair rather than one being lesser than the other. ~ [[User:Serena Strawberry|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Serena Strawberry'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Serena Strawberry|talk]]) 17:22, October 10, 2020 (EDT)
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| :::: We can't just have Alex not show up on a page title. They appear on the Website as Steve / Alex and as Steve and Alex. If the game's materials themselves make the point of having Alex on equal billing then I feel the same case should be made here. I vote for Steve & Alex as a slash would mess up Wiki formatting. [[User:Guybrush20X6|Guybrush20X6]] ([[User talk:Guybrush20X6|talk]]) 19:03, October 10, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::::: <s>Curious, how would the name '''Steve / Alex''' screw over the wiki formatting? What's the difference between that and, the first example that comes to my head, [[Egg Firing / Breegull Blaster]]? It seems to work fine for that. Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''Banjo-'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #FF1901">'''Kazooie'''</span>]] Boss. [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 22:54, October 10, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::::: How dumb could I possibly be? Disregard my previous comments, and fully '''support''' move to '''Steve & Alex'''. Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''Banjo-'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #FF1901">'''Kazooie'''</span>]] Boss. [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 23:07, October 10, 2020 (EDT)</s>
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| I seriously oppose the / or & titles. I very much dislike them on the moveset pages (to the point of I'm tempted to propose making a rule against them) and would vehemently discourage using them here either. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 23:16, October 10, 2020 (EDT)
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| :Miles, while I agree with you that this page should not be renamed, it is kind of necessary for it to be there with moves. Unlike characters, the multi-move specials don't have one more prominent than the other, and one obviously has to be stated first, so I would suggest not giving in to your temptation. [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 01:04, October 12, 2020 (EDT)
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| :Wouldn't that mean that in the case of moves, the second or third part of the move would be on a different page entirely?
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| :As for Alex, I ''could'' see a separate page only detailing the instances she's in. I can also see changing the page to include both or changing it to be more neutral like on the Minecraft Wiki. They use the term "Player", as that's what they both are, and tend to use "Steve" and "Alex" when referring to the designs and artwork. In fact, I can see us changing Joker's character page to "Protagonist (Persona 5)" to be more in-line with the other protagonist and the Persona Wiki. Their Fighter pages would stay Steve and Joker while their character pages would be "Player (Minecraft)" and "Protagonist (Persona 5)". We could also have each Dragon Quest Hero separated by "Hero (Dragon Quest #)". As for Popo & Nana, unlike Banjo & Kazooie, I can't see them being separated in their character page unless they were to get more individual development in a future Ice Climbers game. Perhaps this should be looked into further as there is more than one Fighter that this can apply to? [[User:Wolff| Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 09:30, October 11, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::<s>Some good points have been brought up here. I think '''Player (Minecraft)''' makes the most sense given everything I know about the situation. I really can't think of any problem with this name, or any other option that makes any more sense at this point, so that should be my final '''support'''. Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''Banjo-'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #FF1901">'''Kazooie'''</span>]] Boss. [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 11:23, October 11, 2020 (EDT)</s>
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| :::<s>'''Support''', because it makes the most sense.</s> [[File:ThegameandwatchIcon2.png|20px]] [[User:Thegameandwatch|<span style=" color: red;">'''Thegameandwatch'''</span>]] [[File:ThegameandwatchIcon3.png|20px]] [[User talk:Thegameandwatch|''<span style="color: cyan;">The Nerd </span>'']] 11:31, October 11, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::::Wait, support in changing the character page to "Steve & Alex" or to "Player (Minecraft)"? [[User:Wolff| Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 12:13, October 11, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::::: <s>'''Player (Minecraft)''' but keeping it the same is the more likely change.</s> [[File:ThegameandwatchIcon2.png|20px]] [[User:Thegameandwatch|<span style=" color: red;">'''Thegameandwatch'''</span>]] [[File:ThegameandwatchIcon3.png|20px]] [[User talk:Thegameandwatch|''<span style="color: cyan;">The Nerd </span>'']] 12:24, October 11, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::::::If "Player (Minecraft)" does end up being agreed upon for Steve's character page, then I think the character pages for Joker and Hero should be discussed as well. If not to be more aligned with their games' canon. The Fighter pages would stay Steve, Joker, and Hero regardless. [[User:Wolff| Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 12:29, October 11, 2020 (EDT)
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| "Player (Minecraft)" is absolutely, fully out of the question. There is no reason whatsoever to have this page not include "Steve" in its title. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 12:33, October 11, 2020 (EDT)
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| :Yeah, I don't like Player (Minecraft) as well since the character in ''Smash'' is specifically named Steve/Alex, while in Minecraft the character technically doesn't have a name because it represents the player. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 12:35, October 11, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::Why is that a bad thing? It wouldn't affect the naming of the "Steve (SSBU)" page to have the character page name changed. Regardless if it was "Player (Minecraft)" or "Steve & Alex". [[User:Wolff| Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 13:10, October 11, 2020 (EDT)
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| :::In Minecraft, you don't play as "Steve" or "Alex". You play as the character that the skin represents, hence why Minecraft's wiki goes with "Player." In Smash, you actually play as "Steve" and "Alex" and you can't change those skins outside of alternate costumes, so changing this to "Player (Minecraft)" doesn't sound right to me. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 15:06, October 11, 2020 (EDT)
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| I agree that if nothing else we should keep "Steve" in the page name to match "Steve (SSBU)", and I oppose "Player (Minecraft)". We shouldn't name the character pages too differently from the corresponding fighter pages. ~ [[User:Serena Strawberry|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Serena Strawberry'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Serena Strawberry|talk]]) 15:09, October 11, 2020 (EDT)
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| :I still don't understand why that would be too much of a problem, especially considering that "Player", "Protagonist", and Hero" are the canon names of the Minecraft, Persona, and Hero protagonist. I know the Smash Wiki isn't "official", but it ''would'' solve the whole "Steve / Alex" problem. But oh well. [[User:Wolff| Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 15:29, October 11, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::It's pretty simple. The "Player" from Minecraft is named Steve in Smash, the "Hero" from Dragon Quest is still named "Hero" in Smash instead. If the Heroes were referred officially in Smash by their individual pseudo-canon names (i.e. Eleven) I would be opposed to them sharing a page with the generic title as well. --[[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 05:40, October 12, 2020 (EDT)
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| :::So, what have we learned? '''Player (Minecraft)''' refers to the physical person playing ''Minecraft'', and not to the characters included in ''Smash'', which the article is about. '''Steve & Alex''' implies a duo, and double names look kinda weird. '''Steve / Alex''' would cause difficulties with the wiki's subpage system, although it's [[Egg Firing / Breegull Blaster|technically possible to pull off]], and this matches the official ''Smash'' website (although again, double names look kinda weird). Leaving the page as just '''Steve''', according to some, gives less-than-due attention to Alex, especially since Enderman and Zombie have separate articles. Finally, writing a page all '''Alex'''{{'}}s own would be difficult, but not impossible.
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| :::I know I'm flip-flopping all over the place here, but with all the evidence currently presented, Alex getting her own page just makes sense. It transcends almost every problem brought up here. And if that's not possible, the best decision may very well be to simply leave it alone. Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''Banjo-'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #FF1901">'''Kazooie'''</span>]] Boss. [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 15:03, October 12, 2020 (EDT)
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| The simplest option remains leaving it as-is. Alex doesn't have enough going for her to receive her own page, and any attempt at shoehorning her into the page name will be clunky and awkward. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 15:26, October 12, 2020 (EDT)
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| :Honestly, yeah, I would just drop it at this point. There's zero need for Alex to get her own page. ~ [[User:Serena Strawberry|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Serena Strawberry'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Serena Strawberry|talk]]) 15:51, October 12, 2020 (EDT)
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| :'''Support'''. Can we all agree to just leave things alone? While the simplest option is certainly not always the correct option, all other options definitely runs into some sort of issue right off the bat. Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''Banjo-'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #FF1901">'''Kazooie'''</span>]] Boss. [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 15:58, October 12, 2020 (EDT)
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| :Yeah, we should leave the page title alone. Renaming it "Player (Minecraft)" would be like calling Link's page "Player (The Legend of Zelda)." And what of Robin? Would he be "Avatar (Fire Emblem: Awakening)?" [[Steve (SSBU)]] is the subpage, so there's no reason to make it different just to include another character that couldn't have enough for her own page. Honestly, those double moves with the slashes in their page titles should be split. Just because they have the same input doesn't make them the same. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 19:09, October 13, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::I fiercely oppose the idea of splitting up move pages with slashes / in them, because not only is that how they're formatted in the in-game menus, implementing such a change into fighters' moveset tables would be a nightmare. Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''Banjo-'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #FF1901">'''Kazooie'''</span>]] Boss. [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 19:39, October 13, 2020 (EDT)
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| ==Steve skin used== | |
| This isn't a very big deal but anyway, should the image of Steve used here be of his former skin only used in promotional artwork and Smash model, or his current beardless skin used as of Java Edition Classic which replaced it only a few months afterward in 2009? Personally I'm leaning towards his current skin as it's a better representation of the character from Minecraft itself, but I could also understand wanting to showcase the origins of the skin used in Smash. [[User:RoadSmasher420|RoadSmasher420]] ([[User talk:RoadSmasher420|talk]]) 03:50, October 3, 2020 (EDT) | | This isn't a very big deal but anyway, should the image of Steve used here be of his former skin only used in promotional artwork and Smash model, or his current beardless skin used as of Java Edition Classic which replaced it only a few months afterward in 2009? Personally I'm leaning towards his current skin as it's a better representation of the character from Minecraft itself, but I could also understand wanting to showcase the origins of the skin used in Smash. [[User:RoadSmasher420|RoadSmasher420]] ([[User talk:RoadSmasher420|talk]]) 03:50, October 3, 2020 (EDT) |
| :<s>This isn't something up for debate. We ALWAYS use imagery shown in Smash only, including promotional material. We'll use the skin you suggested if, and only if, it changes to that in the game.</s> [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|🦊'''Furry Nation'''🐺]]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 04:31, October 3, 2020 (EDT)
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| :Okay, disregard my last message. What I said is true for the fighter pages, but I overlooked the fact that your enquiry is about the character themself. And the answer is, probably yes. If you can find an image, feel free to upload it and add it. [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|🦊'''Furry Nation'''🐺]]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 04:35, October 3, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::The intention of the profile art on the character page is to show the origin of the design used in Smash. If we use Sheik's Twilight Princess concept art, we should use Steve's promotion-exclusive bearded form. [[User:TheNuttyOne|TheNuttyOne]] 15:26, October 3, 2020 (EDT)
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| ==Jappa Texture==
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| It's not that big of a deal but I feel like it'd be acceptable to use Steve and Alex's skins from 1.19.4's new skins, which look nicer and still depict the same design. Even though it's not the same skin used in Smash, it could be seen as the same character in a new art style (that being the new art style of the texture update instead of Programmer Art), which other characters do have as not all characters use 3D renders from Smash Bros. for their image. Steve's new texture also keeps their beard, so it would also be the same design used in the game. This render could also be taken from the Minecraft wiki like the one currently used. | :3 - [[User:Banjoei|Banjoei]] ([[User talk:Banjoei|talk]]) 23:32, September 17, 2023 (EDT)
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| :The texture change was after Steve was in Smash so it will probably only be changed if the texture changes in Smash 6. It has some differences despite sharing the beard [[File:ThegameandwatchIcon2.png|20px]] [[User:Thegameandwatch|<span style=" color: Green;">'''Thegameandwatch'''</span>]] [[File:Thegameandwatch signature icon.png|20px]] [[User talk:Thegameandwatch|''<span style="color: blue;">The Nerd </span>'']] 00:04, September 18, 2023 (EDT)
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