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| ::::::Again find me the Magus of Brawl and have him provide the frame data. I don't really consider "it seems to work when___" as true evidence.--<span style="background-color:#6d84e1;border:3px solid silver">[[User:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:silver">'''Brian'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:black">Don't try me!</span>]]</sup>[[File:Falco.gif|link=|27px]]</span> 22:24, 7 October 2013 (EDT) | | ::::::Again find me the Magus of Brawl and have him provide the frame data. I don't really consider "it seems to work when___" as true evidence.--<span style="background-color:#6d84e1;border:3px solid silver">[[User:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:silver">'''Brian'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:black">Don't try me!</span>]]</sup>[[File:Falco.gif|link=|27px]]</span> 22:24, 7 October 2013 (EDT) |
| :::::::... I don't know who you're talking about but it is confirmed that this technique assists with horizontal recovery and can be executed when horizontally launched so I say it should be added to the article for any and all characters that are capable of executing it. '''All in favor say "Ay"'''. [[Special:Contributions/173.58.244.217|173.58.244.217]] 00:34, 9 October 2013 (EDT) | | :::::::... I don't know who you're talking about but it is confirmed that this technique assists with horizontal recovery and can be executed when horizontally launched so I say it should be added to the article for any and all characters that are capable of executing it. '''All in favor say "Ay"'''. [[Special:Contributions/173.58.244.217|173.58.244.217]] 00:34, 9 October 2013 (EDT) |
| ::::::::'''Ay'''. Here's a list of aerial [[stall-then-fall]] attacks:
| | Ay. Here's a list of aerial [[stall-then-fall]] attacksZero Suit Samus: Down aerial; extends a leg, then shoots downward diagonally. Falling hitbox is a meteor smash. |
| :::::::::Zero Suit Samus: Down aerial;
| | Sonic: Down aerial; extends a leg, then shoots downward diagonally. |
| :::::::::Sonic: Down aerial;
| | Sheik: Down aerial; extends a leg and launches herself downward diagonally. |
| :::::::::Sheik: Down aerial;
| | Toon Link: Down aerial; Points his blade downward, then falls quickly. Meteor smashes in the initial fall. If he hits an opponent with this attack, he bounces off, and the attack acts like a normal aerial attack. |
| :::::::::Toon Link: Down aerial;
| | Ice Climbers: Down aerial; thrusts the hammer beneath them and then drop down. Speed is lower than most of the other stall-then-fall aerials in Brawl, but landing lag is shorter than most. They also do not "stall" for very long (seemingly not at all), making the move less predictable. |
| :::::::::Ice Climbers: Down aerial;
| | Mr. Game & Watch: Down aerial; pulls out key and rides it to the ground. Meteor smashes in the initial fall. Unlike every other stall-then-fall aerial, his can be directed left or right slightly. |
| :::::::::Mr. Game & Watch: Down aerial;
| | Wario-Man: Down aerial; Plummets downward head-first, meteor smashing anyone in the way. [[Special:Contributions/71.165.100.9|71.165.100.9]] 00:21, 10 October 2013 (EDT) |
| :::::::::Wario-Man: Down aerial; [[Special:Contributions/71.165.100.9|71.165.100.9]] 00:21, 10 October 2013 (EDT)
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| Let me make myself more clear: I am looking for a person who can provide me frame data that tells me exactly what the conditions are to activate the glitch. This will allow me to test whether or not the glitch can be done consistently on demand. From what it seems, down air stall can't be activated consistently. People who play professionally don't use this to recover at all. Hence that's why i claimed the technique too situational to be listed.--<span style="background-color:#6d84e1;border:3px solid silver">[[User:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:silver">'''Brian'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:black">Don't try me!</span>]]</sup>[[File:Falco.gif|link=|27px]]</span> 00:38, 10 October 2013 (EDT)
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| :Correct me if I am wrong, but that seems to be more of a question for the down air stall page itself. I understand your concern of its consistancy, but it has been shown to work when it is need and I myself have performed the glitch successfully. So despite possible failure, I regard it fitting for a page that is supposed to contain all ways to recover to the stage. [[Special:Contributions/71.165.100.9|71.165.100.9]] 00:45, 10 October 2013 (EDT)
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| ::The possibility of failure seems high though. It may work when you need it once, but more often than not it won't work and when you need it and go for it you'll plummet to death. We shouldn't list this as we should only list things that are proven to be reliable and fail safe. Smashwiki has a bad rep for listing poor, inaccurate, or useless information like labeling this glitch as something you can rely on. We need to change that.--<span style="background-color:#6d84e1;border:3px solid silver">[[User:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:silver">'''Brian'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:black">Don't try me!</span>]]</sup>[[File:Falco.gif|link=|27px]]</span> 00:51, 10 October 2013 (EDT) | |
| :::I am sorry, but I do not have the information you require. All I can say is my personal experience when using the glitch. I have not used it enough to judge whether it is consistant or not. All can say is what it seems to be true of the glitch. I guess we need somebody else to join this talk page to provide this information. As you requested earlier. [[Special:Contributions/71.165.100.9|71.165.100.9]] 10:06, 10 October 2013 (EDT)
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| ::::However, at worst it seems that you will fall at a slowed rate while attacking, assuming you aren't just performing it after jumping. [[Special:Contributions/71.165.100.9|71.165.100.9]] 22:05, 10 October 2013 (EDT)
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| Hello... could somebody please add to the conversation? [[Special:Contributions/71.165.100.9|71.165.100.9]] 20:44, 10 October 2013 (EDT)
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| :I still say this should be added to the page for its usefulness despite the fact that it is not really noticed by most players. Sure it comes with risk, but so do other great techniques such as double jump canceling. Even if it is judged too risky, this page should acknowledge the glitch's existence and who can perform it. If it really is a concern we could just put in a footnote about its risk. Are there any objections? [[Special:Contributions/96.229.195.73|96.229.195.73]] 23:51, 11 October 2013 (EDT)
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| ::Given Brawl's floaty *** physics, the technique is of only moderate help and the risk is too high to merit use. Professional players would never risk losing a stock for a glitch not known to be consistent and neither should you. And your comparison of examples is flawed. Double Jump Canceling has low risks even when used improperly and DJC is a staple technique to characters who have it whereas the stall glitch is not. Again, I'll reiterate the fact that Smash Wiki has a poor reputation in the Smash Community for citing incorrect information such as labeling an inconsistent glitch as a reliable recovery technique.--<span style="background-color:#6d84e1;border:3px solid silver">[[User:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:silver">'''Brian'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:black">Don't try me!</span>]]</sup>[[File:Falco.gif|link=|27px]]</span> 00:25, 12 October 2013 (EDT)
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| :::If it really is that much of a concern, we could, as I said before, warn of the dangers of the glitch and just give a passing mention of it and it's potential. [[Special:Contributions/96.229.195.73|96.229.195.73]] 00:30, 12 October 2013 (EDT)
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| ::::::But you haven't refuted my original point: the risk is far far greater than the reward. I don't want this wiki feeding naive players incorrect information such as encouraging them to go for something way to risky such as this. If anything the wiki should ''discourage'' use of the technique since you will SD more times than successfully use the glitch. Do you want to tell people how to lose? If you want to change my opinion on this discussing, find me proof that the glitch can be done consistently for recovery. No, personal experience doesn't cut it since a random (most likely not competitive) player is not a reliable witness. Acceptable proof would be a technical description (using frame data) of the glitch or having the word of a well known player supporting its use. --<span style="background-color:#6d84e1;border:3px solid silver">[[User:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:silver">'''Brian'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:black">Don't try me!</span>]]</sup>[[File:Falco.gif|link=|27px]]</span> 00:35, 12 October 2013 (EDT)
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| == Ness's PK Thunder in Smash 4 ==
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| I realize [https://mtc.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/771D9592771127998398008819712_281534fc304.5.1.14950578386041677221.mp4?versionId=MXmOOxP87v5nmnmHegcr_H6ZLONBcgjJ this] is valid proof, BUT...I remember playing a match and watching someone fail to recover after ramming into a wall with PK Thunder. Could the video be from an earlier version of the game? [[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]][[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan the'''</span>]] [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aura Master'''</span>]] 10:30, 4 February 2015 (EST)
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| :From what I understand (as someone who doesn't main Ness in SSB4), I believe the wall has to be hit at a certain angle for the helpless animation to be cancelled. I'm not totally clear on the all the details, though. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 10:55, 4 February 2015 (EST)
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| :The helpless animation is always cancelled temporarily, but depending on the angle Ness hits the wall with, he may rebound differently. Generally, if he doesn't ram straight into the wall, he's going to be stuck next to the wall and will most likely become helpless, especially if he's trapped in a corner where he can't activate his Up-B again. [[User:B2jammer|b2jammer]] ([[User talk:B2jammer|talk]]) 09:59, 2 November 2015 (EST)
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| == Anti-edgeguard ==
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| Should anti-edgeguards be covered in the article? I think so since they're an integral part of recovering. – [[User:Smiddle|Smiddle]] 15:49, 27 December 2015 (EST)
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| == Table format? ==
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| The table format for this page is pretty clunky visually and has a lot of wasted space for Brawl/SSB4 newcomers and the like. Would it be beneficial or not to move the text to a more standard prose layout as opposed to using a table? [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 14:15, 7 June 2017 (EDT)
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| :Depending on how it would be formatted, I wouldn't be against a change. The page looks pretty bad as it stands. <b>[[User:john3637881|<span style="color: black;">John</span>]]</b> [[File:John3637881 Signature.png|20px]] <b>[[User talk:John3637881|<span style="color: red;">HUAH!</span>]]</b> 15:22, 7 June 2017 (EDT)
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| ::Honestly, on multiple occasions I have thought "I would edit this page if I didn't hate the format so much". Yes, let us please change it. A section for each character and then subsections by game would work without having to rewrite everything. [[File:Zyrac sig.png]] <font face="Lucida Console">[[User:Zyrac|<font color="green">'''Zyrac'''</font>]]<small>([[User talk:Zyrac|<font color="green">talk</font>]]•[[Special:Contributions/Zyrac|<font color="green">contribs</font>]])</small></font> 15:53, 7 June 2017 (EDT)
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| :::I agree that the table thing is a bit ugly. I would say that we should switch it if I weren't unsure how to organize the prose. Right now we have the games side-by-side allowing for easy comparison. I don't want to lose that, and switching to prose would most likely mean that we have "In <game>" sections then bullet points for each character, meaning that the information isn't as easily comparable. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:12pt">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">King</span>]]'''</span> 16:25, 7 June 2017 (EDT)
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| ::::Could we perhaps redo the page so that the information is presented like [[Forward smash|this]] and [[Up special move|this]], or would that just create additional problems? <b>[[User:john3637881|<span style="color: black;">John</span>]]</b> [[File:John3637881 Signature.png|20px]] <b>[[User talk:John3637881|<span style="color: red;">HUAH!</span>]]</b> 17:25, 18 June 2017 (EDT)
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